Native Is Dying?

[AWdeV]

A good point with a shockingly civil tone.

People want to relax. They want to mess **** up and they want to be messed up, provided they don't have too wait too long before they can start messing people up again.

This probably also indicates that TDM is more popular than siege, simply because defender respawns are slower and can be limited.  'course, I got no evidence to prove my assertion.

 

[MadocComadrin]

It's funny really, how I'm of almost the opposite opinion than Chadz. For me, MP native brought to me something that I thought was missing from SP, the ability to be a simple soldier. In native SP, no matter if you're a pauper or a king, you're always a commander, and mid-late game, you don't get to fight as much if you want to progress. The thing is, I don't want all that focus on me.

Sure, more character customization would be nice for native (that's what drew me to cRPG for the week or so that I played it, and from a modder's perspective, it's art), but not at the cost of grinding for it. Unless cRPG has changed drastically, no matter what extra features are put on it, at it's core, it still grinding, whether it's for equipment or for ability.

And that's why I jumped to PW Mod, there I could roleplay the faceless soldier. What's the problem? There's only one active server, and that's an EU server. Why? I don't know, but I will say that cRPG fills up servers (hex-edited to contain 100-200 players) in a disproportionate way, not only in comparison to Native, but to all other mods as well, and this is what really pisses me off. Why should I have to deal with servers populated under-par or mods that never reach their full potential because one mod is keeping them all? Why should the work of other modders not reach it's full potential because one mod is sucking up a disproportionate amount of people? Heck it would be okay if we had a larger community, but we don't. So now people like me who honestly tried cRPG and were not fond of it have to deal with a lack of people to play with.

Also, you said there was no successful native clan competition system? I don't think that's native's fault. I think that's the fault of the clans who end up squabbling because each clan has it's vision of what should be happening and the host didn't have the balls to say "Shut up and play; this is the way this is going to go down, if you don't like it, your loss."  Why did it turn out different for you? You're a mod-dev, you have a certain authority over your mod (charismatically), and you are the only one who could really give an integrated system, ie. you don't have to say it.

Likewise, have a look at K-TIT, that seems to be moving along rather nicely. Sure, it's not purely clan-based, but a lot of teams are composed from one clan only.

Now take cRPG. Every night, almost every round, people strategize, teams organize and people kinda have to stick to some sort of a plan. Simply because: if the other team successfully play a tactic, they have to counter by also using a tactic and playing as a team.

And you think this doesn't happen in Native? You'd be surprised what a simple "Cav, hold back for a second and rape em in the back when we get there" in battle mode, or "let's group up and hit the side door" in siege can do.  I see it on a daily basis.

@Arch, you do have a point, but I will say that in the NA, we don't have the choice to find a regular TDM or DM server. We have 2 regularly populated battle servers, and a siege server. I miss TDM and DM, and a lot of others do too, since sometimes, you'll see a TDM server skyrocket from 0 to full. Unfortunately, it dies out later on.

 

[[ptx]]

So, chadz should herd the mindless populace to other mods, so that the people playing them have something to kill, other than themselves.
Madoc, that is your choice, to play something or not. As it is the choice of the players that choose cRPG over other mods.

Also, yeah, cRPG has changed a lot, since the last patch. Grind is far smaller, there is a soft cap at lvl31 and lvl30 is reachable in really short time.

 

[MadocComadrin]

So, chadz should herd the mindless populace to other mods, so that the people playing them have something to kill, other than themselves.
Madoc, that is your choice, to play something or not. As it is the choice of the players that choose cRPG over other mods.

Also, yeah, cRPG has changed a lot, since the last patch. Grind is far smaller, there is a soft cap at lvl31 and lvl30 is reachable in really short time.

Aye, but when you have people coming in here saying that people need to give cRPG a try, perhaps they ought to take their own advice. Likewise, there is the phenomenon that population attracts more population. Some people may play cRPG just because there are more people, rather than more than tolerating the mod.

 

[FrisianDude]

Native hardly is dying; I just went through the 'internet'  list of servers and saw that fully half of them were Native and most of those had some population. cRPG and M&M both seemed to have about a third of the remaining half.

 

[chadz]

So, chadz should herd the mindless populace to other mods, so that the people playing them have something to kill, other than themselves.
Madoc, that is your choice, to play something or not. As it is the choice of the players that choose cRPG over other mods.

Also, yeah, cRPG has changed a lot, since the last patch. Grind is far smaller, there is a soft cap at lvl31 and lvl30 is reachable in really short time.

Aye, but when you have people coming in here saying that people need to give cRPG a try, perhaps they ought to take their own advice.

cRPG players do. Whenever a new mod comes out, there are ususally threads in the crpg forum, talking about it and getting cRPG players together to try the other mods out.

But I'm not sure if splitting the cRPG playerbase up and forcing every player to play other mods is the way to go..

 

[Phazey]

Unless cRPG has changed drastically, no matter what extra features are put on it, at it's core, it still grinding, whether it's for equipment or for ability.

It has, you can create a viable character in one or two evenings of playing now.

Why should I have to deal with servers populated under-par or mods that never reach their full potential because one mod is keeping them all?

What are you complaining about? That the mod you play isn't popular and you blame that on cRPG? 

Now take cRPG. Every night, almost every round, people strategize, teams organize and people kinda have to stick to some sort of a plan. Simply because: if the other team successfully play a tactic, they have to counter by also using a tactic and playing as a team.

And you think this doesn't happen in Native? You'd be surprised what a simple "Cav, hold back for a second and rape em in the back when we get there" in battle mode, or "let's group up and hit the side door" in siege can do.  I see it on a daily basis.

My point was that in cRPG it's the norm. In native, it might happen occasionally. In cRPG, it's almost every round.

 

[KillerMongoose]

Yeah I honestly hate cRPG with a passion, native mp is skill based and requires thought and timing and footwork. cRPG is basically "Hey, I spent weeks and weeks grinding and making this character because I don't have a job, family or friends so I'm going to just stomp on you with back and forth spam because I can 1 hit you"

 

[MadocComadrin]

What are you complaining about? That the mod you play isn't popular and you blame that on cRPG? 

Funny, did I make that conclusion at all? No, in fact, I merely stated this:

Why? I don't know, but I will say that cRPG fills up servers (hex-edited to contain 100-200 players) in a disproportionate way

If people are bored of Native, why are a bunch of people playing one mod to such an extent? Isn't that counter-intuitive? Likewise, we don't have a large enough community to sustain all the good mods that are out there if people are going to stick to one in such a disproportionate manner.

My point was that in cRPG it's the norm. In native, it might happen occasionally. In cRPG, it's almost every round.

It's not occasional, I see it on a daily basis.

 

[Alex_C]

Yeah I honestly hate cRPG with a passion, native mp is skill based and requires thought and timing and footwork. cRPG is basically "Hey, I spent weeks and weeks grinding and making this character because I don't have a job, family or friends so I'm going to just stomp on you with back and forth spam because I can 1 hit you"

I believe someone's pointed this out before, but this argument is a little silly.

Being a 'top-player' in native is essentially: time spent (practice) + hardware + internet connection.

Being a 'top-player' in cRPG is essentially: time spent (getting equipment) + hardware + internet connection.

I really don't get the difference?

 

[chadz]

Yeah I honestly hate cRPG with a passion, native mp is skill based and requires thought and timing and footwork. cRPG is basically "Hey, I spent weeks and weeks grinding and making this character because I don't have a job, family or friends so I'm going to just stomp on you with back and forth spam because I can 1 hit you"

That's the point that annoys me. That guy obviously hasn't played it - and yet he has a very strong opinion about it. It's obvious because what you are stating here does not exist.
It takes you about 5 hours to get to level 20, with level 30-33 being the total maximum. It doesn't matter if you played for days, weeks, months or years. And we're currently working on a feature that allows people to skip even that part and start as a high level char right away, so you don't even have to level your char during that time period - the point of cRPG is character customisation and teamplay, not grind.

But again, people will have some silly predefined narrow minded opinions about it rather than actually having a look for themselves.

 

[KillerMongoose]

Yeah I honestly hate cRPG with a passion, native mp is skill based and requires thought and timing and footwork. cRPG is basically "Hey, I spent weeks and weeks grinding and making this character because I don't have a job, family or friends so I'm going to just stomp on you with back and forth spam because I can 1 hit you"

That's the point that annoys me. That guy obviously hasn't played it - and yet he has a very strong opinion about it. It's obvious because what you are stating here does not exist.
It takes you about 5 hours to get to level 20, with level 30-33 being the total maximum. It doesn't matter if you played for days, weeks, months or years. And we're currently working on a feature that allows people to skip even that part and start as a high level char right away, so you don't even have to level your char during that time period - the point of cRPG is character customisation and teamplay, not grind.

But again, people will have some silly predefined narrow minded opinions about it rather than actually having a look for themselves.

And how much chance does a person who is incredibly skilled but level 1 stand against a terrible player who's max level? The whole idea just doesn't belong in Mount and Blade, a skill based game. And why have all the levels and crap if you're going to just let people start high leveled? It makes no sense, and customization may have been the intention but any game with a leveling system like so is going to become a grind fest whether the creators like it or not.

 

[KillerMongoose]

Yeah I honestly hate cRPG with a passion, native mp is skill based and requires thought and timing and footwork. cRPG is basically "Hey, I spent weeks and weeks grinding and making this character because I don't have a job, family or friends so I'm going to just stomp on you with back and forth spam because I can 1 hit you"

I believe someone's pointed this out before, but this argument is a little silly.

Being a 'top-player' in native is essentially: time spent (practice) + hardware + internet connection.

Being a 'top-player' in cRPG is essentially: time spent (getting equipment) + hardware + internet connection.

I really don't get the difference?

Yes but lets say I get just a good/lucky hit on a persons head with an axe, normally they are going to die if not be extremely close. In a level based game, he can just say "I've got more hitpoints, I'm fine and just smash you"

 

[Alex_C]

Yeah I honestly hate cRPG with a passion, native mp is skill based and requires thought and timing and footwork. cRPG is basically "Hey, I spent weeks and weeks grinding and making this character because I don't have a job, family or friends so I'm going to just stomp on you with back and forth spam because I can 1 hit you"

I believe someone's pointed this out before, but this argument is a little silly.

Being a 'top-player' in native is essentially: time spent (practice) + hardware + internet connection.

Being a 'top-player' in cRPG is essentially: time spent (getting equipment) + hardware + internet connection.

I really don't get the difference?

Yes but lets say I get just a good/lucky hit on a persons head with an axe, normally they are going to die if not be extremely close. In a level based game, he can just say "I've got more hitpoints, I'm fine and just smash you"

Uh-huh... and?

 

[chadz]

And how much chance does a person who is incredibly skilled but level 1 stand against a terrible player who's max level? Dunno, hows your manual blocking skills?
The whole idea just doesn't belong in Mount and Blade, a skill based game. What the.. did you ever play singleplayer? And why is that for you to decide anyway?
And why have all the levels and crap if you're going to just let people start high leveled? Because it makes people tied to their chars. Makes people unique.
It makes no sense, and customization may have been the intention but any game with a leveling system like so is going to become a grind fest whether the creators like it or not.When did you last play it?

 

[KillerMongoose]

Yeah I honestly hate cRPG with a passion, native mp is skill based and requires thought and timing and footwork. cRPG is basically "Hey, I spent weeks and weeks grinding and making this character because I don't have a job, family or friends so I'm going to just stomp on you with back and forth spam because I can 1 hit you"

I believe someone's pointed this out before, but this argument is a little silly.

Being a 'top-player' in native is essentially: time spent (practice) + hardware + internet connection.

Being a 'top-player' in cRPG is essentially: time spent (getting equipment) + hardware + internet connection.

I really don't get the difference?

Yes but lets say I get just a good/lucky hit on a persons head with an axe, normally they are going to die if not be extremely close. In a level based game, he can just say "I've got more hitpoints, I'm fine and just smash you"

Uh-huh... and?

Where is the skill in just absorbing damage and 1 hitting?

 

[KillerMongoose]

And how much chance does a person who is incredibly skilled but level 1 stand against a terrible player who's max level? Dunno, hows your manual blocking skills? I'm saying a incredibly skilled person so obviously he's good but 1 lucky hit from mr high level and all that work is for nothing
The whole idea just doesn't belong in Mount and Blade, a skill based game. What the.. did you ever play singleplayer? And why is that for you to decide anyway? Yes, but in single player the levels have a very minimal effect, I can still beat down King Ragnar with a few hits at low-moderate level and plus, this is multiplayer we're talking about, not bots.
And why have all the levels and crap if you're going to just let people start high leveled? Because it makes people tied to their chars. Makes people unique. How does having a higher level make your character unique? That doesn't make sense, in mods like PW people are unique because they take on personas, in cRPG you are just leveling up to be better than everyone else. It's against the whole idea of a skill based game
It makes no sense, and customization may have been the intention but any game with a leveling system like so is going to become a grind fest whether the creators like it or not.When did you last play it? I DID try it but within a few hours of being ganked by high level spammers, I said "**** this" and played native.

 

[Skandinav]

Yeah I honestly hate cRPG with a passion, native mp is skill based and requires thought and timing and footwork. cRPG is basically "Hey, I spent weeks and weeks grinding and making this character because I don't have a job, family or friends so I'm going to just stomp on you with back and forth spam because I can 1 hit you"

I believe someone's pointed this out before, but this argument is a little silly.

Being a 'top-player' in native is essentially: time spent (practice) + hardware + internet connection.

Being a 'top-player' in cRPG is essentially: time spent (getting equipment) + hardware + internet connection.

I really don't get the difference?

This is true to some degree but my experience is that most of the really competent Native players I know have been competent from the beginning - and have of course continued to improve for some time while staying active - and some who aren't very competent have played for over a year and a half and haven't really improved since after the first few months of playing.

I've seen the same rule apply in other skill-based MP games, it seems there's an individual skill cap for most players and when it's reached people never really go far beyond it  - even though it happens at times that someone gets a ( RL ) "level up" even if it has seemed their skill cap was reached.

In a game like this we shouldn't be unmindful of factors like fighting style, finesse, reaction time and one's ability to read other players; things that to some come more naturally than to others.

 

[Hamelech]

It isn't that a higher level makes your character unique. Its how you level it. And also the equipment you wear. In no other mod can you recognise players from across the battlefield.

Having so much customisation I think builds a much stronger community. You know who you're fighting against just with a glance, and you know who's on your team just by looking around. Frequent players become recognisable. And because you recognise them, it builds closer bonds with teammates (you see the guy next to you and know his play style and strengths and weaknesses, and you adjust your play to fit with his), and you also see enemies who you know need to be targeted for the sake of your team.

This is the sort of extra depth that cRPG has.

And your last point - this is often a turn off for people. But how did you start playing WB? Did you log on to a server and immediately were as skilled as the people playing there when you started? Personally, the first time I logged in I got destroyed, and continued to get destroyed for a long time. But then I learnt how to play better.

The same thing happens in cRPG, you just have to realise that it isn't just because the enemies have better gear and stats (though that is a factor, but its one that can be solved by maybe 5 hours gameplay), its also because cRPG demands a whole different skill set. The skills from native transfer, and are very helpful (ask the many 'native' players who started playing cRPG), but there are whole new ones you have to learn for cRPG. There are different weapons, different stats, and much, much larger teams. The type of tactics you use also have to adjust because cRPG isn't limited to classes and by gear, or at least not as much as native.

 

[JackBaldy]

Yeah I honestly hate cRPG with a passion, native mp is skill based and requires thought and timing and footwork. cRPG is basically "Hey, I spent weeks and weeks grinding and making this character because I don't have a job, family or friends so I'm going to just stomp on you with back and forth spam because I can 1 hit you"

I believe someone's pointed this out before, but this argument is a little silly.

Being a 'top-player' in native is essentially: time spent (practice) + hardware + internet connection.

Being a 'top-player' in cRPG is essentially: time spent (getting equipment) + hardware + internet connection.

I really don't get the difference?

That is why you fail.