SP Native Native Balanced

[GADefence]

https://www.mbrepository.com/file.php?cid=1&id=1062

First full release of native balance. Doesn't look like it lives up to it's name right now, but I'll be looking at the areas of problems by next weekend. Leave feedback as to what can be done to make it more balanced.

To do list -

I will be adding suits of armour/weapons and the such. Please PM me a link of your armours/weapons if you'd like them posted here. Let me know what you made them for and I'll try to fit them in in that line (ex: heavy one hander, heavy armour, light armour, etc).

With feedback, I hope this will be a mod that will stay. It's an ongoing thing that will receive balances every once in a while.

Bugs section
Matheld is running around like a stripper - found issue, her armour was moved to the medium category and she does not have the strenght to wear it. Will fix soon.

Balance
Nords seem overpowered, archers seem underpowered. Will be tweaking this.

 

[GADefence]

This will be my first mod, and if I like it enough, I might make one or two more. The current purpose of this mod is to bring pure balance to everything in mount and blade.

As it stands, the first balance mod will be about armour - all armour will be broken down into 4 categories. Really cheap "Peasant" class armour that provides next to no armour, light class armour that gives decent armour, medium class armour that gives good armour and heavy class armour that gives best armour. The reason for this is to make faction balances easier, as well as give the player the chance to wear nearly anything he freaking wants to without being penalized for it. I'm taking out reinforced, lordly, hardened and all of that from the stores completely - max armour is max armour. I'm hoping to take battered, ragged and all that out of the stores but to keep it for battles, that way you can get "bad" armour from battle, but you you won't be able to go to a store and outfit yourself with the best armour for 1/3 the cost.

I'll be looking to balances weapons into starting and finishing classess as well, with starting class weapons being really bad but cheap, and finishing (most) weapons being pretty good. Weapon damages should be balanced a bit more, with more realiance on reach and speed to balance it out then wholesomely unbalance damage. Again, this is to allow the player the chance to use more weapons without being penalized.

Lastly, troop trees for the native module will be redone. This will probably take a bit more time as I have no idea how to do it, but if it's simple enough shouldn't take too too long. I'm hoping to balance them out more (make the rhodoks less of the laughing stock of the game and the swadians/nords less the sir kickass alots of the game) and to add a bit more flavour via what troops evolve into with each empire.

The first incarnation will be the wear anything portion, which I've mostly written up and should be balancing/debugging over the weekend. This should be out by next week, unless college decides to hit me with a lot of homework. Dates for the other portions will be posted once I actually start them.

I'll release updates if I feel it necessary, based on user feedback. If once side/item seems overpowered is all scenarios, it will be changed. If I get enough positive feedback, I might end up porting it over to my favourite mod or two. I'll accept all constructive critisism (ones not related to my mother) once the mod is released. Reserving second post - after mod release, all news will be put there.

 

[Jezze]

I must agree that a lot of thing in the native are not right. If you play with the Swadians you can easily take over whole the map. I am interested in the result of the balancing!

 

[GADefence]

First module update - armour balance.

Working on weapon balance now, should have something by a few days from now. Then off to the hard one, adding weapons/armours and troop balances. That should be done by a while after this, going to try to get it done quickly but well. Leave feedback so I can modify weapons and armour by that time.

 

[GADefence]

Second module update. Weapons are done. Give it a try and tell me what you think of the weapons as is. Horses have also been balanced. Next it troop trees.

 

[Kleidophoros]

good luck with this man, i will check this out.

 

[Jenbu]

Well, I downloaded the file and I didn't notice a thing

 

[GADefence]

? That might explain the massive lack of people posting in this thread. Thanks for being the first to report.


Do tell me if I'm doing anything wrong.

I grab my Native Balanced (which shows all armours and weapons the way I did them), zip it to Native_Balanced.zip. I go to the file despository, click modify and then upload my new M&B Native Balanced file.

I was a bit busy with everything (and doing the mod), and I'm now pretty far in with just the troops (which I'm making now) left. Troop trees will be posted once I'm done with making sure the file works.

 

[GADefence]

Just uploaded the version I'm working with right now and downloaded. . . Everything seems to be ok. The current balance is limited to weapons, armour and horses, so if you were looking for troop trees or something it's not out yet.

Right, I promised troop trees.

Nord Army Line

N Recruit
    |
N Killer----Nord Barrager----------N Thumper
    |                                |
N Brawler----N Berserker            N Shooter
    |          |
N Shocker    N Furious Fighter
    |          |
N Awer      N Blood Thirster
    |
N Fighter

The Nord Army Shocker line will be shielded soldiers who lob axes as they advance. They do less in melee, but get more range in their starting attacks. The Berserker line is a two hander wielder who relies on massive axe damage. The Barrage line focuses on small to medium bows, and retains decent melee weapons, with the end line being in medium armor.



Vayegir Army

V Recruit
      |
V Guardsman ----- V Rangeman ---------- V Marksman
      |                                    |
V Armsman---------V Horseman            V Snipeman
      |                |
V Swordman        V Cavalryman
      |                |
V Axeman          V Uhl-Man
      |
V Maceman

The Vayegir Swordman line will focus mostly on melee weapons with a shield, and end up getting heavy armour very late. The horseman line will get heavy armour late as well, but will focus on longer-reach spear weaponry. The Rangeman line will focus on archery, with nearly no melee and no shield.




Swadian Army

S Recruit
      |
S Trainee ------ S Ranged Infantry ------ S Heavy Infantry
      |                                          |
S Infantry                                  S Crossbow Infantry
      |
S Light Infantry ----- S Cavalry
      |                    |
S Guard Infantry      S Knight
      |
S Strike Infantry

The Swadians get cavalry further then the Vayegirs, but they pretty much start off kickass, and focus on shielded combat with a one hander. The Guard Infantry will focus on light shielding with heavier armour and big weapons. The Ranged Infantry line will focus on large crossbows, and will end up in light armour with a decent melee weapon.




Rhodoks

R Recruit - Wrapping Boots, Rich Tunic
    |
R Troop --------- R Firing Troop ----------- R Air Troop
    |                                            |
R Melee Troop ------ R Pole Troop            R Crossbow Troop
    |                    |
R Sword Troop        R Arm Troop
    |                    |
R Bastard Troop      R Major Troop
    |
R Spiked Troop


The Rhodok Sword Troop line will focus on heavy armour with large shields and medium weapons. The Pole Troop will focus on polearms with slightly more power then the sword troop, and a shield. The Firing Troop will end up in medium armour, with a shield, but with next to no melee capability.






Khergits

K Recruit
    |
K Rider - K Archer - K Marker - K Striker
    |
K Stabber - K Impaler
    |          |
K Passer    K Lancer
    |          |
K Runner    K Charger
    |
K Slicer

The Khergits will remain all cavalry. Their Passer line will have hunter class horses at best, and will focus on one handed melee passess with a chance of shield. The Impale line will have spears, and will focus on raming attack, they will also bel imited to hunter class horses and no shields. The Archer line will be in light armour on courses, to take advantage of speed, but will be less enduring then most other troops.






Mercenaries

Farmer
  |
Town Guard
  |
Town Watch --------- Mercenary Guard - Mercenary Horseman - Mercenary Horselord
  |
Mercenary Soldier - Mercenary Crossbowman - Mercenary Crossbow Lord
  |
Mercenary Warrior - Mercenary Hammerlord
  |
Mercenary Warlord


The Mercenary Warlord will end up being a heavy armoured characther with a one hander and shield. The Hammerlord will end up having a crushing two handed weapon. The Mercenary Crossbow Lord will end up in heavy armour, with a crossbow, no shield, and little melee experience. The Mercenary Horselord will end up with a heavy horse, no shield, a lance and some melee experience.

 

[Jenbu]

well I download it, and I extract it and put the files from SceneObj in my map on the computer. I do the same with the other files I copy and overwrite it. Am I doing right?

You got a good mod idea and I look forward to when it's done 

 

[TheWitcher]

Are you going to make some units to be more suitable against different enemy units? Or your balancing method is to make all factions equally strong on certain levels of troop tree? I think first could force players to more tactical thinking when upgrading their units and creating an army. The latter leads just to an old RTS strategy to upgrade your units to strongest possible and lacks in terms of tactic and management of an army. I don't think that new troops are needed - maybe better just remade existing troop trees? Also "snipeman", "bastard troop", "slicer", "hammerlord"? Definitely silly names if you want my opinion. Sounds like from some cheap comic-book based on even cheaper fantasy pulp fiction...

When fiddling with weapons and armours stats you should definitely check RCM. There are few quite interesting solutions for combat. 

I hope this helps.
Good luck!

 

[GADefence]

well I download it, and I extract it and put the files from SceneObj in my map on the computer. I do the same with the other files I copy and overwrite it. Am I doing right?

You got a good mod idea and I look forward to when it's done 

I don't think I actually touched anything in SceneObj. Just unzip "Native Balanced" int your M&B/Modules and run it from the drop down list at the start of the game.

Are you going to make some units to be more suitable against different enemy units? Or your balancing method is to make all factions equally strong on certain levels of troop tree? I think first could force players to more tactical thinking when upgrading their units and creating an army. The latter leads just to an old RTS strategy to upgrade your units to strongest possible and lacks in terms of tactic and management of an army. I don't think that new troops are needed - maybe better just remade existing troop trees? Also "snipeman", "bastard troop", "slicer", "hammerlord"? Definitely silly names if you want my opinion. Sounds like from some cheap comic-book based on even cheaper fantasy pulp fiction...

When fiddling with weapons and armours stats you should definitely check RCM. There are few quite interesting solutions for combat. 

I hope this helps.
Good luck!

Eh, you can think that. It's actually because I want to try to make every faction sound unique, but similar to itself and I started running out of ideas. Bastard troops is to gives away that they have bastard swords, snipe is a term for a good shot hence the end of the archer line. Hammerlord was changed to combat lord since it did indeed sound cheesy, and I switched fighter/killer since killer sounds so much better (what would you rather run around with, 30 nord fighters or 30 nord killers?)

Overall, each army will be balanced so that their level of skill is equal at similar levels, that way "standard soldier A" from the nords and "standard soldier A" from the vayegirs will be on even footing. The skill levels (iron flesh, and all that), are balanced where they are absent from some troops and fairly strong (4-5) on high tiered troops, based on how much of what else they are doing. The item balance should be what helps a lot, with certain troops missing another's line completely, and certain troops being drastically underarmed for certain situations (the khergit horseman have ****ty melee weaponry and no shield, but impressive mounted capabilities, while their shielded troops have less mounted capability but more foot capability).

I'm trying to make it so each race has a flavor and tactical disposition without making one kingdom best overall. I'm up to Khergits right now, have about 2-3 nations and the bandits left to requip and reskill. I'm not abandonning this mod upon completion, I have a few more ideas (adding in more suits of weapons for the player to wear, and, if I can, testing out how a fee to upgrade troops would work with lowered weapon/armour costs, and removing blunt's no kill tag and making all fighters have a 35% base chance to live). Based on community feedback, I'll switch around troop trees/rebalance items so that one side is not completely overpowered (unless I'm told something like <i die n palte plat suks>, which will mostly be ignored).

I'll check RCM but I'm focusing on finishing troops before 2PM today, can you post me a link?

 

[TheWitcher]

Eh, you can think that. It's actually because I want to try to make every faction sound unique, but similar to itself and I started running out of ideas. Bastard troops is to gives away that they have bastard swords, snipe is a term for a good shot hence the end of the archer line. Hammerlord was changed to combat lord since it did indeed sound cheesy, and I switched fighter/killer since killer sounds so much better (what would you rather run around with, 30 nord fighters or 30 nord killers?)

You would be better off to find some unique names on the internet. When I was still playing traditional pen and paper RPGs I had a method which could fit here.
With Khergits and Nords it's going to be quite easy - find some Mongol and Scandinavian words through translators and such and just name them this way.
For the others - you can made up some language or just use like German or just names sounding "right" for the faction. This way you will make every faction very unique, remove silliness and troop names won't be so obviously pointing to what they use. It's going to make players explore and experiment and it'll make your mod more interesting.

Overall, each army will be balanced so that their level of skill is equal at similar levels, that way "standard soldier A" from the nords and "standard soldier A" from the vayegirs will be on even footing. The skill levels (iron flesh, and all that), are balanced where they are absent from some troops and fairly strong (4-5) on high tiered troops, based on how much of what else they are doing. The item balance should be what helps a lot, with certain troops missing another's line completely, and certain troops being drastically underarmed for certain situations (the khergit horseman have ****ty melee weaponry and no shield, but impressive mounted capabilities, while their shielded troops have less mounted capability but more foot capability).

I see. I had an impression that thy will be equipped similarly. Maybe rethink the skill layout though. I think the skills should mirror what equipment they're using. Also - I would really advice you to "counter weight" units with preserving overall balance. For example: make one faction longbowmens very powerful but then make another faction cavalry (on the same tree level) fast and some spearmen of other faction great against cavalry etc. Take an example of how it was done in MTW: every "faction" was unique, but you had to manage troops properly and direct them against proper opponent to win.

I'm trying to make it so each race has a flavor and tactical disposition without making one kingdom best overall. I'm up to Khergits right now, have about 2-3 nations and the bandits left to requip and reskill. I'm not abandonning this mod upon completion, I have a few more ideas (adding in more suits of weapons for the player to wear, and, if I can, testing out how a fee to upgrade troops would work with lowered weapon/armour costs, and removing blunt's no kill tag and making all fighters have a 35% base chance to live). Based on community feedback, I'll switch around troop trees/rebalance items so that one side is not completely overpowered (unless I'm told something like <i die n palte plat suks>, which will mostly be ignored).

I like your approach and determination. Native needs some more realistic stuff without really changing the overall idea of the gameplay. I might help you with the mod if you want, but have in mind that I'm a bit busy right now. On the other hand - if you're good with scripting (which I lacks) I could use your help in my project. I can - in exchange - help you with the models and such and provide some substantive help with rebalancing or making things more realistic. So? Whattayousay?

I'll check RCM but I'm focusing on finishing troops before 2PM today, can you post me a link?

Here http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php/topic,348.0.html
I think the combat model is pretty accurate, with few oddities though. But as I can see and as it was pointed out by many in other threads - oddities are more an effect of engine limitations than anything else. Actually M&B engine is a ***** sometimes to work with, but I think Ron Loosey made a good job and it works pretty well. It gives another dimension to the combat. I would also add Mirathei's fFormations and morale scripts - just to rise realism level a little bit more. Athough morale script have to be rethinked - I have few ideas of how to do that but I lack proper scripting knowledge to make it myself...

Feel free to PM me if you're interested in collaboration.

 

[GADefence]

I'll say most of what you said is already in line with the troops I've made. Once I get this @#$%ing skill error I'm getting out of the way, I'll be seeing that there's no crash related bugs by participating in lord battles for a bit then releasing it. We'll see where it goes from there.

As to help with your mod, I was thinking or making a major one of my own once I'm done here, however I am also very busy. I'm also not a good scripter, so short of some small things I don't even want to ask someone else's help (seriously too many people going "I can spray 5 words on a page, become my slave and write the code for me!" on this forum)

I'm actually trying to avoid using made up languages. You can generally, from the first unit of the troop tree, figure out where it's going. I'm a little concerned that "warlord" and "battle lord" might confuse some people and might change it soon. Uhlman is the closest to what you were refering to, as it's a reference to the Uhlan Cavalry from russia, but I am overall trying to avoid calling archer "grugglegloobpenerata" (which probably means crusty snot flinger in some language) and going with easier names.

 

[GADefence]

@#$%. Ok, tonight was a bad evening and I'm now strapped for time in pretty much every way.

The troop trees are redone, might receive light reworking and will receive heavy balancing after more play testing. Currently seems like nords and rhodoks are winning a lot, but then most of their foes have heavy archery reliance. I'll see how castle defence/offence goes and be altering it accordingly.


Leave feedback, without it progress will slow down.

 

[Evan]

I've been playing it, and it has potential.  Combined arms could really come into its own, ending the total cavalry dominance.  A couple problems:

If you give an order to archers, the Swadian infantry follows that same order.  In sieges, the dismounted knights will do the same thing. 

The armor is excessive for some of these troop types.  Especially the Rhodok crossbow troop types.  It gets really ridiculous in siege assaults - they're like living barricades, can't hit back but the attackers cant get past em either.  At the end I was surrounded by a bunch of em with "received 0 damage" and "delivered 0 damage" scrolling past...

There's very few looted weapons/armor items showing up after battles.  This does end the need to micromanage 'em - but if you're going to keep it this way I suggest improving the armor supply in the city shops - fewer "rusty" or "chipped" items.  It might be a good idea to do that anyway, it was hard to find decent weapons for myself and my NPCs.

Otherwise I liked it.  The armor thing is probably the biggest gameplay problem, makes it impossible to siege Rhodok castles.

 

[GADefence]

Thanks for the feedback, I'm currently really damn busy with my college life (which is over in 2 months when I'm done) and helping out SoD. I'll be giving weapon damages an uprade then and see how that works out, you can expect this mod to continue it's life within the next few months.