Nation Characteristics

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dumblor

Sergeant
I've got an idea from EUIII.

Nation Characteristics

Each characteristic would have seven options, the middle one bearing no bonus and no penalty.

Centralization/Decentralization:

3 - very centralized. Tax Inefficiency for the ruler is reduced by 15%, and increased by 15% to his vassals  .Ruler's relations with his vassals should suffer a -3 hit every month. Kings armies get 30% percent increase, lords armies get 9% decrease.
2 - quite centralized. Tax Inefficiency for the ruler is reduced by 10%,and increased by 10% to his vassals . Ruler's relations with his vassals fiefs should suffer a -2 hit every month. Kings armies get 20% percent increase, lords armies get 6% decrease.
1 - little centralized. Tax inefficiency for the ruler is reduced by 5%, and increased by 5% to his vassals. Ruler's relations with his vassals fiefs should suffer a -1 hit every month. Kings armies get 10% percent increase, lords armies get 3% decrease.
0 - neither too centralized, nor decentrilized.
-1 - little decentralized. Tax Inefficiency for the ruler is increased by 5%. Ruler's relations with his vassals increasy +1 every month. Kings armies get 10% percent decrease, lords armies get 3% increase.
-2 - quite decentralized. Tax Inefficiency for the ruler is increased by 10%. Ruler's relations with his vassals increasy +2 every month. Kings armies get 20% percent decrease, lords armies get 6% increase.
-3 - very decentralized. Tax Inefficiency for the ruler is increased by 15%. Ruler's relations with his vassals increasy +3 every month. Kings armies get 30% percent decrease, lords armies get 9% increase.

Aristocracy/Plutocracy:

3 - very aristocratic.  Trade decrased by 15%. Kings relations with their lords increased by 3 every month. Vassals armies increased by 9%.
2 - quite aristocratic. Trade decrased by 10%. Kings relations with their lords increased by 2 every month. Vassals armies increased by 6%.
1 - little aristocratic. Trade decrased by 5%. Kings relations with their lords increased by 1 every month. Vassals armies increased by 3%.
0 - a mixture of arisctocracy and plutocracy.
-1 - little plutocratic. Trade increased by 10%. Kings relations with their lords decreased by 1 every month. Vassals armies decreased by 3%.
-2 - quite plutocratic. Trade increased by 15%. Kings relations with their lords decreased by 2 every month. Vassals armies decreased by 6%.
-3 - very plutocratic. Trade increased by 20%. Kings relations with their lords decreased by 3 every month. Vassals armies decreased by 9%.

Serfdom/Free subjects:

3 - almost all serfs.  Tax inneficiency decrased by 9% for both king and his vassals. Troops of the faction suffer a 9 morale hit, kings and lords armies increased by 3%.
2 - mostly serfs.  Tax inneficiency decrased by 6% for both king and his vassals. Troops of the faction suffer a 6 morale hit, kings and lords armies increased by 2%.
1 - ussually serfs.  Tax innefiency decrased by 3% for both king and his vassals. Troops of the faction suffer a 3 morale hit, kings and lords armies increased by 1%.
0 - a mixture of serfs and free subjects.
-1 - ussually free subjects. Tax inneficiency incrased by 3% for both king and his vassals. Troops of the faction get a 5 morale bonus, kings and lords armies decreased by 1%.
-2 - mostly free subjects. Tax inneficiency incrased by 6% for both king and his vassals. Troops of the faction get a 10 morale bonus, kings and lords armies decreased by 2%.
-3 - all free subjects. Tax inneficiency incrased by 9% for both king and his vassals. Troops of the faction get a 15 morale bonus, kings and lords armies decreased by 3%.

Quality/Quantity:

3 - of legendary bravery. Morale of troops inceased by 18, lords armies decreased by 12%.
2 - of great bravery. Morale of troops inceased by 12, lords armies decreased by 8%.
1 - of good bravery. Morale of troops inceased by 6, lords armies decreased by 4%.
0 - of mediocre bravery and quantity.
-1 - of good quanity. Morale of troops decreased by 6, lords armies increased by 4%.
-2 - of great quantity. Morale of troops decreased by 12, lords armies increased by 8%.
-3 - of legendary quantity. Morale of troops decreased by 18, lords armies increased by 12%.

Ofcourse, this could use some balancing, but the overall idea is clear. I hope this isn't impossible to accomplish :smile:.
You can get information on nation's charateristics from your Chancelor. The rough text could be
The [name of nation] is [Centralization/Decentralization]. Their upper class society is [Aristocracy/plutocracy], and the lower class is made of [Serfdom/Free subjects]. Their warriors are [Quality/Quantity].

So, in example, rhodoks would have these stats
C/D - 0
A/P - -3
S/F - -2
Q/Q - 1

Than the chancelor would say:

The Kingdoms of Rhodoks is neither too centralized, nor decentralized. Their upper class society is very plutocratic, and the lower class is made of mostly free subjects. Their warriors are of good bravery.

So, as I said, this would be hard to implement and require a lot of work, but it would be a great addition, and in my opinion it's possible to implement this. And if you really like this, maybe you could also think of implementing a stability stat for a nation? :smile:


EDIT:

Forgot to say, as a ruler you would be able to switch these sliders to the side you wanted, but how often or the ways of doing this would depend on the form of goverment, but since this is another idea, i need to now if you like just plain characterstics.

If you wouldn't want goveremnt's forms, you could make it changeable via chancelor every two months or so. The resulf of changes might result in a rebellion or lord's defection (depending on his personality?) or something along those lines. Maybe you could ask your vassals first if they wanted a change.
Cheers
 
indeed very very very good idea. But just a small side note, the example you gave would make all rhodok lords leave in like 5 weeks right? (-3 relations x 5)

so i think that when aplied the npc factions should always make sure they have a balance. Or maybe something that checked for the king what his average relation with his lords is and according to that make judgements. Example average relation is 5 so he can do something that drops relation. But when average is like -1 he would do something that improves relation?
 
also little side note, your suggestion dumblor also reminded me of the kings edicts used in mount and blades module Sword of damocles, i'l try to find a summary of them all and copy them here.

Note: I'l try and leave of the effects on the clergy from the sword of damocles editcs.


since i couldn't find a good list il just post this:



[/URL]

these are a few links to pics of
-the first 4 are about fief management (construction and garrison and assigning trainers)
- the second 4 are the 4 kinds of king edicts in that mod
 
manekemaan 说:
also little side note, your suggestion dumblor also reminded me of the kings edicts used in mount and blades module Sword of damocles, i'l try to find a summary of them all and copy them here.

Note: I'l try and leave of the effects on the clergy from the sword of damocles editcs.


since i couldn't find a good list il just post this:



[/URL]

these are a few links to pics of
-the first 4 are about fief management (construction and garrison and assigning trainers)
- the second 4 are the 4 kinds of king edicts in that mod

Yes, eddicts would be a nice addition, but it's something other than the slider's from EU. Eddicts are direct laws, while characteristics are just the way the people are. Yes, like i said already, it would require some balancing :smile:.

EDIT: And by the way the characteristics of kingdoms was just a rough idea, I am going to post the full idea pretty soon.

Cheers!
 
So the full list of suggestions :smile:.

Nation Characteristics

Each characteristic would have seven options, the middle one bearing no bonus and no penalty.

Centralization/Decentralization:

3 - very centralized. Tax Inefficiency for the ruler is reduced by 15%, and increased by 15% to his vassals. Kings armies get 30% percent increase, lords armies get 9% decrease.
2 - quite centralized. Tax Inefficiency for the ruler is reduced by 10%,and increased by 10% to his vassals. Kings armies get 20% percent increase, lords armies get 6% decrease.
1 - little centralized. Tax inefficiency for the ruler is reduced by 5%, and increased by 5% to his vassals. Kings armies get 10% percent increase, lords armies get 3% decrease.
0 - neither too centralized, nor decentrilized.
-1 - little decentralized. Tax Inefficiency for the ruler is increased by 5%. King's armies get 10% percent decrease, lord's armies get 3% increase.
-2 - quite decentralized. Tax Inefficiency for the ruler is increased by 10%. King's armies get 20% percent decrease, lord's armies get 6% increase.
-3 - very decentralized. Tax Inefficiency for the ruler is increased by 15%. King's armies get 30% percent decrease, lord's armies get 9% increase.

Aristocracy/Plutocracy:

3 - very aristocratic.  Trade decrased by 15%. Vassals armies increased by 18%.
2 - quite aristocratic. Trade decrased by 10%. Vassals armies increased by 12%.
1 - little aristocratic. Trade decrased by 5%. Vassals armies increased by 6%.
0 - a mixture of arisctocracy and plutocracy.
-1 - little plutocratic. Trade increased by 10%. Vassals armies decreased by 6%.
-2 - quite plutocratic. Trade increased by 15%. Vassals armies decreased by 12%.
-3 - very plutocratic. Trade increased by 20%. Vassals armies decreased by 18%.

Serfdom/Free subjects:

3 - almost all serfs.  Tax inneficiency decrased by 9% for both king and his vassals. Troops of the faction suffer a 9 morale hit, kings and lords armies increased by 3%.
2 - mostly serfs.  Tax inneficiency decrased by 6% for both king and his vassals. Troops of the faction suffer a 6 morale hit, kings and lords armies increased by 2%.
1 - ussually serfs.  Tax innefiency decrased by 3% for both king and his vassals. Troops of the faction suffer a 3 morale hit, kings and lords armies increased by 1%.
0 - a mixture of serfs and free subjects.
-1 - ussually free subjects. Tax inneficiency incrased by 3% for both king and his vassals. Troops of the faction get a 5 morale bonus, kings and lords armies decreased by 1%.
-2 - mostly free subjects. Tax inneficiency incrased by 6% for both king and his vassals. Troops of the faction get a 10 morale bonus, kings and lords armies decreased by 2%.
-3 - all free subjects. Tax inneficiency incrased by 9% for both king and his vassals. Troops of the faction get a 15 morale bonus, kings and lords armies decreased by 3%.

Quality/Quantity:

3 - of legendary bravery. Morale of troops inceased by 18, lords armies decreased by 12%.
2 - of great bravery. Morale of troops inceased by 12, lords armies decreased by 8%.
1 - of good bravery. Morale of troops inceased by 6, lords armies decreased by 4%.
0 - of mediocre bravery and quantity.
-1 - of good quanity. Morale of troops decreased by 6, lords armies increased by 4%.
-2 - of great quantity. Morale of troops decreased by 12, lords armies increased by 8%.
-3 - of legendary quantity. Morale of troops decreased by 18, lords armies increased by 12%.

Ofcourse, this could use some balancing, but the overall idea is clear. I hope this isn't impossible to accomplish :smile:.
You can get information on nation's charateristics from your Chancelor. The rough text could be
The [name of nation] is [Centralization/Decentralization]. Their upper class society is [Aristocracy/plutocracy], and the lower class is made of [Serfdom/Free subjects]. Their warriors are [Quality/Quantity].

So, in example, rhodoks would have these stats
C/D - 0
A/P - -3
S/F - -2
Q/Q - 1

Than the chancelor would say:

The Kingdoms of Rhodoks is neither too centralized, nor decentralized. Their upper class society is very plutocratic, and the lower class is made of mostly free subjects. Their warriors are of good bravery.
Starting Characteristics (if you have any ideas, please point 'em out :smile:)
Centralization <--o----> Decentralization
插入代码块:
Aristocracy	<--o----> Plutocracy	
Serfs		<---o---> Free subjects
Quality		<-o-----> Quantity
                3      -3
插入代码块:
Centralization	<----o--> Decentralization
Aristocracy	<---o---> Plutocracy	
Serfs		<--o----> Free subjects
Quality		<----o--> Quantity
                3      -3
插入代码块:
Centralization	<----o--> Decentralization
Aristocracy	<--o----> Plutocracy	
Serfs		<---o---> Free subjects
Quality		<----o--> Quantity
                3      -3
插入代码块:
Centralization	<---o---> Decentralization
Aristocracy	<---o---> Plutocracy	
Serfs		<----o--> Free subjects
Quality		<--o----> Quantity
                3      -3
插入代码块:
Centralization	<----o--> Decentralization
Aristocracy	<--o----> Plutocracy	
Serfs		<---o---> Free subjects
Quality		<-----o-> Quantity
                3      -3
插入代码块:
Centralization	<--o----> Decentralization
Aristocracy	<--o----> Plutocracy	
Serfs		<--o----> Free subjects
Quality		<-o-----> Quantity
                3      -3

Goverment Types:
This is where it would get real seriuos.

The Three starting forms of Government:

Feudal Monarchy:
-The default government in Native.
-The kingdom is ruled by king who divides his land to his vassals.
-Since it's feudal, it favours Serfdom and Aristocracy.
-The king owns little land, so this is a state of high decentralization.

Characteristics:
-The vassals have quite big armies (Vassal's armies +10%)
-The king has a lesser army than normal (King's armies -30%)
-Serfs provide gread production (Tax Income +10%)
-The king prefers to give lands to other lords than himself.
-Nation's characteristics can be moved every 3 months.
-A peasant rebellion is very likely (because they are reppressed)
-The politics is up to the king, the marshall is elected by vassals.

A realm is considered Feudal Monarchy when:
插入代码块:
Centralization	<---oo--> Decentralization
Aristocracy	<ooo----> Plutocracy	
Serfs		<ooo----> Free subjects
                3      -3

(Notice: The slider shows which values are correct to become this type of government, starting from 3 to -3)

Despotic Monarchy:
-A centralized version of Feudal Monarchy.
-The kingdom is ruled by the king, who owns lot's of the lands, yet gives some to his vassals.
-Since it's despotic, it favours Centralisation.
-The king own's much of the land, so this is a state of high centralization.

Characteristics:
-Vassals have lesser armies than normal (Vassal's armies -10%)
-The king has bigger army than normal (King's army +30%)
-Serfs provide great production (Tax income +10%)
-The King prefers to give lands to himself than to other lords.
-Nation's characteristics can be moved every 3 months.
-If there are many lords, it's likely for them to defect.
-The king is allways the marshal.

A realm is considered Despotic Monarchy when:

插入代码块:
Centralization	<-oo----> Decentralization
Aristocracy	<ooo----> Plutocracy	
Serfs		<ooo----> Free subjects
                3      -3

Noble republic
-An Oligarchic type of republic,
-The ruler is elected by the nobles of the country (if that's possible?)
-Trade is increased by the guilds (Trade +10%)
-Because of conscription, leader's army is increased a little (King's army +5%)
-The Leader prefers to give lands to anyone equally.
-Nation's characteristics are moved every 2 months.
-Elections happen every two months (if that's possible)
-The marshall is elected by Lord's.

A realm is considered Noble republic when:

插入代码块:
Centralization	<-ooooo-> Decentralization
Aristocracy	<-ooo---> Plutocracy	
Serfs		<--ooo--> Free subjects
                3      -3

Starting governments:
Nords Despotic Monarchy
Vaegirs Feudal Monarchy
Swadians Feudal Monarchy
Rhodoks Noble's Republic
Khergits Noble's Republic
Saranids Despotic Monarchy

Advanced types of government:

Absolute Monarchy/Administrative Republic.
Ain't writing about it, because I don't know if the starting ones will get approved.
C'ya l8er, alig8er,

Anyway, this might be hard to implement, but would really be awesome.
The government type could change automaticly, according to the characteristics,
or they could change when the player would talk to chancellor.
If the characteristics fit a new type of Governemnt, kings would have a chance of 75% or so to change it.
Anyway, hope this has a chance of getting accomplished :smile:.
Political Talk
While reading War and Peace i've got an idea:
During feasts, the player character could speak with lords about politics.
If possible, three or four could participate in conversation.
Depending on their characters, they could declare they're opinions on:

-War's
-Other Lord's actions:
-Defection
-Joining the realm
-Getting a fief
-Wining a tournament
-Wining a battle
-Taking a city/castle
-and so on...
-Your actions
-Joining the realm
-Getting a fief
-Wining a tournament
-Marrying someone
-Wining a battle
-Taking a city/castle
-Claimnants
-Other realms
-Characteristics change (if it get's implemented)
-Government types change (if it get's implemented)
Some lords might like your opinion, and some won't, that depends on lord's character.
If a lord likes your opinion, your relations with him increase, and vice versa.
If a lord is your friend (+30) he won't be bothered by the fact that he disagrees with you.
This might require lot's of work, but i could help in that I could write the dialogues if you want.

Peace and happiness
 
Great ideas!!!

just some sugestions about them

About the noble republic: maybe if ellecting a real ruler aint possible we could give the marshall all of the rulers features?

About the despotic monarchy; sound right the king is the marshal at all times, but this would be more suitable to real life if the king could send orders to his vassals to attack an area or casttle all together. Because I do believe that when you send the message to all of them individually, they all go there and only the first one sieges, the rest goes home? So maybe additional to the sending a message (trough companions) that you whish to start a campaign could be i wish them to besiege ..... or I wish them to defend ....
(btw this will also have many of the characterisitcs of the feudal system right? like peasant rebelion?)

about the feudal monarchy: There should be no loss of relation with the kingdoms leader when a noble loses his land but with the kingdoms marshall, since the king is not the miltary leader in this case.

And about the political talk: This should NOT be done during feast, it would be like a total mood killer ^^. Maybe the Faction leaders should have the option of calling together a council, 2 different types one obliged (for very important matters like lets say giving a town or choosing the marshal) and one not obliged (for, ofcourse, less important matters for lets say giving a village, chosing what the kingdom will do next)
 
I agree about the ruler of Noble Republic :smile:.


Despotic Monarchy shouldn't have peasant's rebellion, because under feudal monarchy there's full of lords that have nothing better to do than to repress peasants, unlike in Despotic, where vassals own only a minority of land. Ofcourse, when the game starts the lands would be like in native, just when the realm is becoming bigger, the king gives himself more lands than to his vassals.

The political talk is just small talk with your friends, not political decision taken by a council. You just exchange your opinion with another lord on a matter of things, but that's it, the only way it affects the gameplay is that it shifts your relations with other lords.
It's to make a feast something more interesting and add more depth to the game.

about the feudal monarchy: There should be no loss of relation with the kingdoms leader when a noble loses his land but with the kingdoms marshall, since the king is not the miltary leader in this case.

There is a loss ? Well, in that case I agree with you :smile:.

Anyway, before pressing this matter, we should see if waihti likes this tottaly crazy idea :smile:.
 
yes there is, well atleast when i'm king everytime one of my vassals get beaten in battle -1 relation and if i remember correctly (its been a long time since i lost any land) u also lose some relation when the fief is taken from them. Both of these things should always aply to the kingdoms marshal.

And about the small potical talk, Ah like that ^^ ok I see you point. I just tought of it like this because I live in a political ****y country (belguim the tiny country that wants to split in half ^^) so if anyone starts to talk about politics on a party here, its a real mood killer ^^
 
I like the Nation Characteristic ideas, I thinks it's similar to the characteristics I have seen in Hearts or Iron.

Since this comes with alot of effects the first thing I have to do is to check if its possible to implement the suggestions you made. If everything is possible there's no reason why it shouldn't be integrated into Diplomacy.

But I also have to lower your sights:

[list type=decimal]
[*]Starting characteristics which are assigned to certain factions are not possible because Diplomacy is used as base for other mods. It is possible to assign starting characteristics randomly though.
[*]Goverment Types is a very tough undertaking and I won't tackle it in near future.
[/list]

The political talk is also a good idea it's also possible to hinge it on the character of the lords:

插入代码块:
lrep_none           = 0 
lrep_martial        = 1 #chivalrous but not terribly empathetic or introspective, - eg Richard Lionheart, your average 14th century French baron
lrep_quarrelsome    = 2 #spiteful, cynical, a bit paranoid, possibly hotheaded - eg Robert Graves' Tiberius, some of Charles VI's uncles
lrep_selfrighteous  = 3 #coldblooded, moralizing, often cruel - eg William the Conqueror, Timur, Octavian, Aurangzeb (although he is arguably upstanding instead, particularly after his accession)
lrep_cunning        = 4 #coldblooded, pragmatic, amoral - eg Louis XI, Guiscard, Akbar Khan, Abd al-Aziz Ibn Saud
lrep_debauched      = 5 #spiteful, amoral, sadistic - eg Caligula, Tuchman's Charles of Navarre
lrep_goodnatured    = 6 #chivalrous, benevolent, perhaps a little too decent to be a good warlord - eg Hussein ibn Ali. Few well-known historical examples maybe. because many lack the drive to rise to faction leadership. Ranjit Singh has aspects
lrep_upstanding     = 7 #moralizing, benevolent, pragmatic, - eg Bernard Cornwell's Alfred, Charlemagne, Salah al-Din, Sher Shah Suri

Would be great if you like to write some dialogs.
 
If you need some help writing the dialogs, I can help if you want just give me some instructions :p

From dumblor
Political Talk
While reading War and Peace i've got an idea:
During feasts, the player character could speak with lords about politics.
If possible, three or four could participate in conversation.
Depending on their characters, they could declare they're opinions on:

-War's
-Other Lord's actions:
-Defection
-Joining the realm
-Getting a fief
-Wining a tournament
-Wining a battle
-Taking a city/castle
-and so on...
-Your actions
-Joining the realm
-Getting a fief
-Wining a tournament
-Marrying someone
-Wining a battle
-Taking a city/castle
-Claimnants
-Other realms
-Characteristics change (if it get's implemented)
-Government types change (if it get's implemented)
Some lords might like your opinion, and some won't, that depends on lord's character.
If a lord likes your opinion, your relations with him increase, and vice versa.
If a lord is your friend (+30) he won't be bothered by the fact that he disagrees with you.
This might require lot's of work, but i could help in that I could write the dialogues if you want.

Peace and happiness
 
Serfdom/Free subjects:

3 - almost all serfs.  Tax inneficiency decrased by 9% for both king and his vassals. Troops of the faction suffer a 9 morale hit, kings and lords armies increased by 3%.
2 - mostly serfs.  Tax inneficiency decrased by 6% for both king and his vassals. Troops of the faction suffer a 6 morale hit, kings and lords armies increased by 2%.
1 - ussually serfs.  Tax innefiency decrased by 3% for both king and his vassals. Troops of the faction suffer a 3 morale hit, kings and lords armies increased by 1%.
0 - a mixture of serfs and free subjects.
-1 - ussually free subjects. Tax inneficiency incrased by 3% for both king and his vassals. Troops of the faction get a 5 morale bonus, kings and lords armies decreased by 1%.
-2 - mostly free subjects. Tax inneficiency incrased by 6% for both king and his vassals. Troops of the faction get a 10 morale bonus, kings and lords armies decreased by 2%.
-3 - all free subjects. Tax inneficiency incrased by 9% for both king and his vassals. Troops of the faction get a 15 morale bonus, kings and lords armies decreased by 3%.


how will you handle your own kingdoms troop when kingdoms culture is none?
 
I guess I'm going to be the odd one out and say I'm not a big fan of this. It just seems to complicate stuff much more than I'd be willing to play with. I like simplicity with mods and such, which is why I like Diplomacy as is.
 
It only looks complicated. It's actually pretty Simple, and it will make realms more different.


Starting characteristics which are assigned to certain factions are not possible because Diplomacy is used as base for other mods. It is possible to assign starting characteristics randomly though.

No reason to really bound it to a faction. Maybe this could make every game different.

Goverment Types is a very tough undertaking and I won't tackle it in near future.

I figured that when I got the idea, so it was expected.

How will you handle your own kingdoms troop when kingdoms culture is none?


Maybe it's possible to increase morale for all parties of the kingdom via script?

Would be great if you like to write some dialogs.


Sure I could write 'em, just say the word :smile:.
 
dumblor 说:
Would be great if you like to write some dialogs.


Sure I could write 'em, just say the word :smile:.

Please do it! Since manekemaan has offered his help maybe you can integrate him too. Might be a good idea to start a new thread regarding the political dialogs, to keep this one clean. Before you write down all your dialog ideas, lets pick out one and lets see how its going to work.
 
good ideas but be very careful with morale and relation hits especially every month its hard enough keeping lords relation above 0 when assigning alot of new castles and land to ppl
 
LtpLegend 说:
good ideas but be very careful with morale and relation hits especially every month its hard enough keeping lords relation above 0 when assigning alot of new castles and land to ppl

I have removed the relation hits in the latest revision (found in a letter post).
 
I checked nation characteristics and most of the things are doable.

But moral only affects the player party, so there's no point changing that. I would rather give the faction a bonus/malus in the ai strengh calculation which affects auto fights, what do you think? We have to be careful here so we don't affect the balance too much. Basically that means we have to balance out between strengh bonus and party sizes for the ai.

Planning to start working on nation characteristics this weekend.  :mrgreen:
 
maybe a little str boost in stead of morale, since increases morale = increased fighting cababilities
 
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