Native Completed [NASTe] North American Small Teams Seasonal Ladder [Season 2]

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No, I get the point, I just don't get the over simplification. You're refusing to see that there has to be some sort of oversight and room for rules to be interpreted differently in different situations. I see the point you're raising, but you're glossing certain things over, when it's really as simple as if a team is having a legitimate latency issue, and they request the map to be replayed because of it, there's a valid point to consider. However, if a team is having a latency issue and *doesn't* request any action, there's obviously nothing to consider.

I understand what you're getting at; there needs to be more clarification. As a ladder admin, my interpretation is that a team who has a large amount of their team having latency issues has the ability to request a reschedule, at which point the other team is obliged to acquiesce if the request is legitimate and not lag produced by an obvious attempt to stall the match, aka a team is down 1-4 and starts torrenting.

Clearly, the interpretation is there for the admins, and I think that my simple explanation is a pretty easy to grasp point. Latency problems need to be announced quickly and handled at that moment. The only reason BkS vs Balion went on is that, if I remember correctly, I let Balion know we were having issues yet the sentiment was that we were expected to deal with it. In essence, we were forced to play with it. The teams now know they have the option to request a reschedule, and if they don't exercise that right immediately when the issue arises, they should forfeit the right.

Edit: Part of the issue is that the precedent lies in the fact that we, as an entire group of players under a new ruleset, were learning the rules as to what happened in that exact scenario. Now that we all know the rules and are very well defined, it's not acceptable to go to the third map and then request the entire match be thrown out for a little bit of lag on one map. The only reason the initial BkS vs Balion map went that long is the situation never arising before and neither team being aware of their responsibilities or expected actions in that situation; that's no longer the case.

Edit 2: A livestream and VOD set of the finals and third place match would be an awesome cap to the season. Perhaps I can co-commentate the third place match with Lust and a few other notables, and have the finals match commentated as well? We should make an event out of it; hype it up a bit.
 
Rhade 说:
No, I get the point, I just don't get the over simplification. You're refusing to see that there has to be some sort of oversight and room for rules to be interpreted differently in different situations. I see the point you're raising, but you're glossing certain things over, when it's really as simple as if a team is having a legitimate latency issue, and they request the map to be replayed because of it, there's a valid point to consider. However, if a team is having a latency issue and *doesn't* request any action, there's obviously nothing to consider.

I understand what you're getting at; there needs to be more clarification. As a ladder admin, my interpretation is that a team who has a large amount of their team having latency issues has the ability to request a reschedule, at which point the other team is obliged to acquiesce if the request is legitimate and not lag produced by an obvious attempt to stall the match, aka a team is down 1-4 and starts torrenting.

Clearly, the interpretation is there for the admins, and I think that my simple explanation is a pretty easy to grasp point.

You missed it again...a match where one team is playing a match at an unsuitable ping should never be played out to the finish because even if the ping issue is COMPLETELY LEGITIMATE...the current rules would allow the afflicted team to get a free shot at beating the other team because if they lose they can blame ping and reschedule...it's as easy as that.
 
blak 说:
Rhade 说:
No, I get the point, I just don't get the over simplification. You're refusing to see that there has to be some sort of oversight and room for rules to be interpreted differently in different situations. I see the point you're raising, but you're glossing certain things over, when it's really as simple as if a team is having a legitimate latency issue, and they request the map to be replayed because of it, there's a valid point to consider. However, if a team is having a latency issue and *doesn't* request any action, there's obviously nothing to consider.

I understand what you're getting at; there needs to be more clarification. As a ladder admin, my interpretation is that a team who has a large amount of their team having latency issues has the ability to request a reschedule, at which point the other team is obliged to acquiesce if the request is legitimate and not lag produced by an obvious attempt to stall the match, aka a team is down 1-4 and starts torrenting.

Clearly, the interpretation is there for the admins, and I think that my simple explanation is a pretty easy to grasp point.

You missed it again...a match where one team is playing a match at an unsuitable ping should never be played out to the finish because even if the ping issue is COMPLETELY LEGITIMATE...the current rules would allow the afflicted team to get a free shot at beating the other team because if they lose they can blame ping and reschedule...it's as easy as that.

Guess you missed my edits. However, it's good that has never happened and will not happen due to the points I already outlined in my previous edits.

However, latency is an odd thing; sometimes, my ping will spike for a few minutes and drop back down for hours; sometimes it will jump up and down for a few minutes, stabilize for a minute, then sit at ~140 for an hour. There's really no way to predict how it's going to act, and it's difficult to know if it's going to have a large effect. I suppose my ping issues are different than most.
 
While the 'hypocrisy!' post of Blak was a little discourteous, he raises a completely valid point. Teams could, potentially, play til the third map with high ping, and then if they're in a losing situation, pull the ping card and not play it.

A good way to avoid that situation is to make a ruling in which the lagging team is asked at the starting period of their lagging, "Are you playing this out or not?" If it's positive, then they've got to play it out unless the ping substantially increases.
 
Rhade 说:
Edit 2: A livestream and VOD set of the finals and third place match would be an awesome cap to the season. Perhaps I can co-commentate the third place match with Lust and a few other notables, and have the finals match commentated as well? We should make an event out of it; hype it up a bit.
I'm in the third place match...

Will try to put something together for the finals though. Any word on the date?
 
Rhade 说:
Edit 2: A livestream and VOD set of the finals and third place match would be an awesome cap to the season. Perhaps I can co-commentate the third place match with Lust and a few other notables, and have the finals match commentated as well? We should make an event out of it; hype it up a bit.
I'm willing to dust off my Brit impression and just pretend I'm Lust.
*goes get's drunk and takes rage lessons from Marnid
 
Rhade did miss Blak's point. Blak correctly assesses the fact that a ruling may be made that will demand revisiting the match after it has been completed. He insists that this is exploitable by a team as a "safety net" in case they dislike the outcome of the match. I'm probably in the worst of moods right now, so I'm going to keep this as short as possible.

Those who suffer from a ping abnormality are disadvantaged.

Disadvantages potentially skew the outcomes of matches.

If you would like to argue either of those points, you're hopeless. I'm certain you would agree with them, though, and I don't think that's where the issue lies. The following is how the NASTe rules deal with ping abnormalities and circumstantial disadvantages.

Disputes allow for recourse of a skewed match if it is deemed necessary. This means a team that feels it is unfairly disadvantaged may dispute the match. A dispute is merely a request for ladder admins to investigate the match further. If no dispute is filed, the match is not scrutinized further by the ladder admins and results are taken as presented.

If a match is disputed, the entire match is scrutinized. When a dispute is made, unaffiliated ladder admins (meaning admins not on either of the teams involved) will investigate the circumstances of the entire match, not just a single map. After all information has been gathered, a decision is made.

In the event that a match is considered unacceptable, it is replayed. Matches found to be unfair by the ladder admins will be replayed under more ideal conditions to allow for a more accurate outcome of the match.

Basically, disputes are the course for reconciliation for disadvantaged teams. Disputes do not guarantee a match will be replayed, and abuse of the dispute system will be punished. Disputes do not have to be filed during a match, they can be filed after its completion within reason (a dispute posted a month and several matches after the fact won't be considered). The dispute system is in place to ensure all matches are fought under conditions which are as ideal as possible, and to ensure that teams have the power to reconcile violations of the rules.

To be entirely specific, BkS filed a dispute in the BAD vs. BkS match that was replayed. BkS' claim was filed shortly after the completion of the match, and found to be valid by consensus of unaffiliated ladder admins. These same ladder admins, after careful consideration of the match, decided that it was best if the entire match be replayed under more ideal conditions. If the match were not disputed, the result would have been taken as presented.

In the BkS vs. LES match, no dispute was filed, so the result is taken as given. LES can claim that there was a ping disadvantage, and it is true that BkS did suffer a ping disadvantage, but the disadvantage lay upon BkS. LES has little to gain from disputing the match. Likewise, BkS has nothing to gain from disputing the match. If the match were disputed, then per the rules I am certain the other ladder admins would find that the results came from less-than-ideal circumstances and the match would be replayed, but neither team in this instance feels that the results would change were the match played under more ideal circumstances and thus no dispute was filed.

If you still don't get it, you can kindly stop calling me a hypocrite and start working on your reading comprehension. I'm done with this discussion.
 
Mad Dawg 说:
Rhade 说:
Edit 2: A livestream and VOD set of the finals and third place match would be an awesome cap to the season. Perhaps I can co-commentate the third place match with Lust and a few other notables, and have the finals match commentated as well? We should make an event out of it; hype it up a bit.
I'm willing to dust off my Brit impression and just pretend I'm Lust.
*goes get's drunk and takes rage lessons from Marnid

Maybe BkS and Balion can commentate then.
 
Lust is playing. He can't commentate. Bring in the Burgundy, he sounds better.
 
oh yes, more mindless rambling and attempting at humor and trolling instead of casting the actual match.

sounds good.
 
Orion 说:
Lust is playing. He can't commentate. Bring in the Burgundy, he sounds better.

Hmmmm, I'd do it if no one else steps up.

Jaime 说:
oh yes, more mindless rambling and attempting at humor and trolling instead of casting the actual match.

sounds good.

I may even talk about the match if I were to do it.
 
All dickwaving aside regarding rules disputes, I would love to commentate the finals with Lust and company. Unfortunately, since both lust and I would be involved in the 3rd place match we'll need to find another co-caster for Rhade.
 
I say Rhade and Burgundy would be fine...if nobody wants to do the actual recording I can do that...already have the programs in place. As for a live-stream...I am a complete noob and wouldn't have the slightest idea how to do a quality one...not sure if my connection could handle it.
 
blak 说:
I say Rhade and Burgundy would be fine...if nobody wants to do the actual recording I can do that...already have the programs in place. As for a live-stream...I am a complete noob and wouldn't have the slightest idea how to do a quality one...not sure if my connection could handle it.

So...many...TRIPLE DOTS... ... ... ... ... :3
 
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