Glitches don't fall under the meta-game, rather gameplay itself--whether or not they actually balance something.
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Outlawed
Sergeant Knight
Just say, Nord town cart usage is banned.
Village back cloths are banned.
Ruins walls are banned.
Port Assault any roof jumping is banned.
Reasons:
Carts: very easily accessible, yet one is more easily defended than the other. Getting on lower spawn's cart requires a jump, a pause, and then another jump and only grants entry to the spawn. Upper spawn's cart allows you to get on upper spawn, shoot into lower alley and cover an area that the spawn itself doesn't.
Village: the back cloths are almost impossible to get on, even with a shield, when you have one archer who can possibly shoot guard the choke point.
Ruins: the walls are an unfair advantage. Cav is helpless to them, and the enemy team might not be able to get on them, since they are probably the hardest glitch apart from the Nord Town outsider glitch.
Port Assault is self explanatory.
Final note: I think the teams in this have too large of an e-peen to use glitches for advantages.
Village back cloths are banned.
Ruins walls are banned.
Port Assault any roof jumping is banned.
Reasons:
Carts: very easily accessible, yet one is more easily defended than the other. Getting on lower spawn's cart requires a jump, a pause, and then another jump and only grants entry to the spawn. Upper spawn's cart allows you to get on upper spawn, shoot into lower alley and cover an area that the spawn itself doesn't.
Village: the back cloths are almost impossible to get on, even with a shield, when you have one archer who can possibly shoot guard the choke point.
Ruins: the walls are an unfair advantage. Cav is helpless to them, and the enemy team might not be able to get on them, since they are probably the hardest glitch apart from the Nord Town outsider glitch.
Port Assault is self explanatory.
Final note: I think the teams in this have too large of an e-peen to use glitches for advantages.
The ruins walls are easy jumps for me. I get them on the first try 90% of the time. The only real argument I can see against them is that you have to be inside the ruins area to jump onto them, giving an advantage to the team that chooses hill spawn as they can cover the ways up onto the walls.
I can never make those jumps, hence my belief they are a glitch. If the intent was for them to be accessable it would be easily available to everyone, not just those that know precisely how to get up there.Orion 说:
That is usually my rule of thumb on "glitches". Orginal intent and fairness of accessability.
That's sort of like saying certain boxes and ledges in Counter-Strike are "glitches" even though you just have to crouch-jump onto them. Not knowing how to get onto them doesn't make them glitches.
The ruins walls aren't difficult to get onto. The only thing you need to know is which corner to jump on, which I said in my last post. The corners facing the ruins are the jump-able ones. I've seen players jump the other corners before, but that side is much more finnicky and quite difficult, and I think it's only possible on one of the walls.
As for this:
The same can be said for most of the roofs in Village that are easily accessible but only have a single access point. No roofs allowed, then?
The ruins walls aren't difficult to get onto. The only thing you need to know is which corner to jump on, which I said in my last post. The corners facing the ruins are the jump-able ones. I've seen players jump the other corners before, but that side is much more finnicky and quite difficult, and I think it's only possible on one of the walls.
As for this:
Outlawed 说:
The same can be said for most of the roofs in Village that are easily accessible but only have a single access point. No roofs allowed, then?
Outlawed
Sergeant Knight
So Marnid. 3-1 so far on those jumps -_-
Also about the roofs, they are map design rofl?
I'm pretty sure the game devs made the walls in ruins scaled bigger to avoid the jumps.
They wouldn't have put roofs with ladders TO GET TO THEM on village if they didn't want us to get on them... are you trolling me dude?
Also about the roofs, they are map design rofl?
I'm pretty sure the game devs made the walls in ruins scaled bigger to avoid the jumps.
They wouldn't have put roofs with ladders TO GET TO THEM on village if they didn't want us to get on them... are you trolling me dude?
Second the ruins-walls argument and I'm pretty sure he's talking about different roofs there.Outlawed 说:
Tried to say it wasn't worth having this discussion but if it's happening, it's happening. Firstly, I can't even believe that the Village back cloths would even need mentioning, they're so obviously a glitch. However, I still commend Sala for making an effort to provide some genuine clarity in the way of making a list.
Although I'm not sure what you mean by the Port Assault roofs. Do you mean that none should be accessed at all, or just the glitch which allows you to reach higher parts of the roofs by jumping off the broken beam?
Anyway, since this is being discussed, a good way to be thorough would be to run through my list of "fixed" glitches and check which ones you consider to be glitches.
Although I'm not sure what you mean by the Port Assault roofs. Do you mean that none should be accessed at all, or just the glitch which allows you to reach higher parts of the roofs by jumping off the broken beam?
Anyway, since this is being discussed, a good way to be thorough would be to run through my list of "fixed" glitches and check which ones you consider to be glitches.
captain lust 说:Fixed Maps (with the problems/glitches that have been fixed):
Nord Town
- Using the carts to get onto rooves.
- Getting under the walkway at low spawn.
- Trick jumping from the catwalk to the roof of the house at the U shape, at fort spawn.
- Jumping off the catwalk at fortspawn and taking 0 damage.
- Having to jump up the steps, onto the wall.
- Getting inside various things. #needs verification
- Jumping onto the roof near the wall.
- Jumping on to the roof, at 2nd spawn, from the palisades on the catwalks.
Port Assault
- Using broken beams to glitch onto blocked parts of certain rooves.
- Sliding off the stable (by the wall), if you don't jump onto it.
- Jumping from the ladder, connecting the houses, to the roof of the smaller house.
- Getting stuck at the top of the ladder in the middle house.
- Getting out of the map.
Village
- Clothlines to get onto middle rooves.
- Getting on top of the beams above towers.
- Jumping on the cloths above the pillowed area.
- Using a horse to reach other areas, from the roof with 2 ladders.
- Falling down the gap, behind the Barn.
- Getting stuck on the straw house, at front rooves.
- Jumping to the perimeter wall, from the back roof with the wooden stairs and ladder and the balcony that overlooks the flag position.
- Leapfrogging over teammates, to get to higher, adjacent wall segments.
- Accessing a cloth patterned awning, near the "alleys" flag spawn.
Ruins
- Jumping onto the low walls.
- Getting and hiding inside walls.
- Jumping onto the house, at village spawn.
Ruined Fort
- Jumping onto the low ruined wall, facing village spawn.
- Jumping onto the end of the wall, near ruins.
- Jumping onto the house, at village spawn.
- Walking inside the wall, at the edge of the round tower.
Field by the River
- Jumping onto the houses, at the 1st spawn.
- Using a horse, to get onto the rooves, at 2nd spawn.
captain lust 说:Fixed Maps (with the problems/glitches that have been fixed):
Nord Town
- Using the carts to get onto rooves. - Debatable. Disable both, or leave them both open.
- Getting under the walkway at low spawn. - Not a glitch, just a silly spot.
- Trick jumping from the catwalk to the roof of the house at the U shape, at fort spawn. - Leave it open if the cart is still accessible, otherwise block it.
- Jumping off the catwalk at fortspawn and taking 0 damage. - Hard to avoid this, because (I think) it's due to the invisible barrier.
- Having to jump up the steps, onto the wall. - A nuisance, and a good fix.
- Getting inside various things. #needs verification - Def. needs verification. Not sure what's happening here.
- Jumping onto the roof near the wall. - Can you be any more vague?
- Jumping on to the roof, at 2nd spawn, from the palisades on the catwalks. - Definitely a finnicky trick-jump that can get you out of the map. I'd close this one.
Port Assault
- Using broken beams to glitch onto blocked parts of certain rooves. - Depends. This needs to be more specific.
- Sliding off the stable (by the wall), if you don't jump onto it. - A good fix.
- Jumping from the ladder, connecting the houses, to the roof of the smaller house. - Trick jump, or glitch? Trick jumps aren't necessarily bad.
- Getting stuck at the top of the ladder in the middle house. - Definitely fix this.
- Getting out of the map. - Obvious enough.
Village
- Clothlines to get onto middle rooves. - A tricky jump, but there's only one way up and it's very exploitable/advantageous for one team.
- Getting on top of the beams above towers. - I've never personally seen this, but it sounds like it involves clipping through objects. Fix.
- Jumping on the cloths above the pillowed area. - This is fine, IMO. If the devs wanted to avoid it, they would use invisible barriers or noclip them. They've had plenty of time to do so.
- Using a horse to reach other areas, from the roof with 2 ladders. - It's not glitching, it's clever use of a horse. What is glitching is dismounting from a horse into the corner room at back tower.
- Falling down the gap, behind the Barn. - Not a glitch, but a nuisance.
- Getting stuck on the straw house, at front rooves. - Getting stuck isn't fun.
- Jumping to the perimeter wall, from the back roof with the wooden stairs and ladder and the balcony that overlooks the flag position. - This isn't a glitch, it's just a long jump. Realism can't be your reasoning for blocking areas.
- Leapfrogging over teammates, to get to higher, adjacent wall segments. - Sounds like a flukey game mechanic, and not a map glitch.
- Accessing a cloth patterned awning, near the "alleys" flag spawn. - Should be accessible if dropped onto.
Ruins
- Jumping onto the low walls. - A trick jump, and not a terribly useful one either. I fail to see the big deal about this.
- Getting and hiding inside walls. - Definitely a problem, especially at the gate.
- Jumping onto the house, at village spawn. - Jumping from the log pile isn't too difficult, but jumping to other sections of the roof is. The front section (reachable from log pile) is quite small and forward-facing, so no big deal. Also reachable with some melee weapons.
Ruined Fort
- Jumping onto the low ruined wall, facing village spawn. -I'm not sure what you mean by this.
- Jumping onto the end of the wall, near ruins. - Or this.
- Jumping onto the house, at village spawn. - Should be changed, though it's not that hard to get onto IIRC.
- Walking inside the wall, at the edge of the round tower. - Yup.
Field by the River
- Jumping onto the houses, at the 1st spawn. - Needs a fix.
- Using a horse, to get onto the rooves, at 2nd spawn. - Yup.
Outlawed 说:
They wouldn't have kept jumping which serves no purpose in combat if they didn't want us to jump on the maps.
Well I'm not really interested in arguing my case for most of these, since I guess a lot of them are opinion.
However this:
... is ****ing madness.
Anyway, would be a good idea to post this in the OP, so there is some clarification. Definitely going to be exploiting some of these and I don't want to hear any **** when I do so.
However this:
... is ****ing madness.
Anyway, would be a good idea to post this in the OP, so there is some clarification. Definitely going to be exploiting some of these and I don't want to hear any **** when I do so.
LES is challenging BKS. We are available Sunday between 4:00 and 6:00pm CST and Monday Between 7:00 and 9:00 CST
CommissarK 说:
Tomorrow, 6 CST is fine. PM's inc, Marnid.
On topic:
Saying that the devs would not have put jump in if they didn't want us to use it to abuse faulty map mechanics is inane. Are you also implying that since the devs never really gave enough of a **** to fix the glitch on top of the stairs inside the house at Port Assault, that they also intended for us to get stuck there? Don't confuse neglect and apathy with intent.
I think this is talking about how you can use the stables to get inside the walls they're up against. Upper stable you can get inside a house, inside which you can see and walk through the walls (but can't attack). Lower stable you can get into the upper/lower separator wall and poke your head through the floor to shoot then retreat back underground.Orion 说:
I don't think developer intent is an especially good thing to judge this stuff by since we do things as a matter of course the developers didn't think of every time we play. I personally think aside from stuff like the above where someone can keep poking out of the ground from outside the map there isn't much that should be made out of bounds. Everyone can get to these places, the vast majority of which don't convey any advantage, unless you're ignorant of the method or don't have good enough execution to do it, both of which are valid reasons to be at a disadvantage in my book. I know that's a particularly unpopular opinion though so I'm happy to go along with the consensus and play slightly overzealously fixed maps.
Well in the glitch free maps there are actually very few examples of "fixes" based on developer intent alone. Many of them require a jump to be made with such precision, that a lone player simply holding up their shield could prevent it, which causes serious problems to gameplay (holding out for draws etc.)[M] 说:
Rhade 说:
Getting stuck interferes with playing. Trick jumps do not. By my thinking, glitches that result in you being stuck or confer ridiculous advantages to a single team are obstructions to gameplay, while things that require precise timing or jumping skill are merely obstacles to gameplay. The distinction I make between obstructions and obstacles is that obstacles can be overcome, obstructions almost always cannot.
The argument I saw against the Ruins walls was that they're inaccessible by cavalry (not true, but disregarding that) and provide an unfair vantage point out of reach of melee units. I said roofs convey the same advantage, which is entirely true. The only difference between a roof and the Ruins walls is means of access. In Village, for instance, the accessible roofs have stairs or ladders, but usually just a single access point. The Ruins walls have one access point that requires a jump. Both the Village roofs and the Ruins walls can be guarded by a single player to deny access. The advantages they convey are the same. Typically, teams bring ranged units to take out players on Village roofs. It's not my fault if you can't shoot a guy off the wall, which in my opinion is much easier considering the player can't take an enfilade position on the wall and is visible from the majority of the map. Same situation, same tactics. I don't see the issue with those walls.
captain lust 说:
Oddly enough, that's not how this works. Funny, I know. If you had read the rules, you would see in the last section that rule changes are to be decided upon by consensus of ladder admins. I'm not going to jump in and fiddle with the rules by myself on a whim.
Speaking of rule changes, I've got some for you guys. Most of these will go into effect Saturday, November 5th. Changes to the rules are underlined.
II. Player Substitutions & Rosters
Teams must field 6 players at all times. Teams may only substitute players during matches between maps or with consent from the opposing team's captain or if a player unexpectedly loses connection/crashes and is unable to rejoin promptly. In the event that a substitute is not readily available, no more than two rounds may be played with a single missing player on both sides. If no substitute can be found in this time, the match may be postponed up to an hour or rescheduled, as per the team captains' wishes.
A. Server Selection
Server selection will be decided upon by both teams prior to the match. If the server chosen prior to the match is deemed unsuitable (abnormally high pings, high ping differences, frequent crashing or loss of connection, etc. for multiple players) then the two team captains must decide upon a new server, or agree to a postponement (up to 1 hour) or reschedule. All rescheduled matches and server changes must be forwarded to a tournament administrator.
The rule that will go into effect immediately is this:
A. Registration
Team Registration must be done within the first 3 months of the ladder season. Registrations after this point will be placed on the following season’s ladder. Teams must meet the minimum roster size when registering before they are placed on the ladder. The minimum roster size is 6 players. You must maintain at least 6 players on your roster at all times. Dropping below 6 players while you are ranked on the ladder will result in your team’s rank being lost. You will remain unranked and must find a sixth player or be removed from the ladder after one week. Furthermore, teams may not exceed 10 players.
What will be discussed in the immediate future is a standardized procedure for ladder admins to follow when handling disputes.
New ladder admins are being discussed, and I'll be contacting one we seem to have consensus on already.
Ah, but there's a difference between precise jumping skills (aka getting on the village roofs) and jump-glitching. The latter requires a guess-and-check style of jumping to get to the exactly correct situation, as opposed to a platformer-esque estimate of timing and jumping.Orion 说:
Then I think the argument that you didn't see is that those walls were subtly rescaled for one of the patches in an attempt to prevent players from jumping on them.
If someone is standing still on a ladder, you can effectively fight them. If they are standing still with their shield held at the point of a trick jump, you cannot. This is the key difference in terms of gameplay.Orion 说:
Fair enough. In that case, look forward to future clarification.Orion 说:
As for the rules.
II. Player Substitutions & Rosters - in the case of a reschedule, will the match resume at the point it was stopped, the point the team went down to 5 players or will it restart?
A. Registration - Perhaps a provision to allow 24 hours for a team to regain 6 or players after dropping below would be fair. No one can predict the unpredictable and a team perfectly capable of replacing lost players could be unfairly (unnecessarily) penalised. Although, on that point... I'm not quite clear on the player removal process so I don't know how a team could drop below 6 players.
In the example I provided, teams could leave absent players in their roster, solving the problem. Sort of. Is that right?
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