- 主题发起人 Orion
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Guys, don't you see that $1000 starting gold makes ranged units (and Vaegirs by extension) even more OP?
With $1000 starting gold:
On any map that is at all open (mixed/open maps), ranged units will generally become more powerful compared to other classes, as their kit is inexpensive and maxes out quickly. Inf/Cav, on the other hand, will not be able to afford better armor / shields / throwing weapons / great lances / heavy lances. These are all things that give them an edge against archers. We already see that ranged units dominate in mixed and many open maps. I think the extra 500 gold gives the non-ranged classes more overall ranged survivability, and as a result it improves the overall class balance and makes choosing cav, and especially choosing infantry, a viable prospect on mixed and open maps.
I know that a lot of us, when we pub, play infantry. We do it because it is fun and leads to intense in-your-face skirmishes that one doesn't get when the game is 80% archers. Changing the starting gold will make infantry even less necessary and potent on many maps. Cav will be ok, but infantry will become far less useful than a maxed out ranged unit who can still melee in a fix.
Someone has also mentioned how this could add to the snowballing effect that occurs when one team goes down the first 2/3 rounds and the other team has funds to spend on gear. Most of us know that if you go 3 rounds down in NASTe, you're pretty much done on that map as you will have default gear while the other team will be geared up - you glance on their banded armor all day while he 2 hits you through your padded shirt. Having $1000 as default just makes it even harder to climb out of the gutter; the extra $500 gives you a bit more of a fighting chance.
I know the new rules about swapping spawn and faction balance a lot of things out, but nevertheless I feel that the overall class balance in this game would suffer with $1000 gold as default instead of what we've been playing with in NA for years - the standard $1500.
As this is a topic of debate among the NASTe community right now, I just wanted to say my piece.
peace
Green
With $1000 starting gold:
On any map that is at all open (mixed/open maps), ranged units will generally become more powerful compared to other classes, as their kit is inexpensive and maxes out quickly. Inf/Cav, on the other hand, will not be able to afford better armor / shields / throwing weapons / great lances / heavy lances. These are all things that give them an edge against archers. We already see that ranged units dominate in mixed and many open maps. I think the extra 500 gold gives the non-ranged classes more overall ranged survivability, and as a result it improves the overall class balance and makes choosing cav, and especially choosing infantry, a viable prospect on mixed and open maps.
I know that a lot of us, when we pub, play infantry. We do it because it is fun and leads to intense in-your-face skirmishes that one doesn't get when the game is 80% archers. Changing the starting gold will make infantry even less necessary and potent on many maps. Cav will be ok, but infantry will become far less useful than a maxed out ranged unit who can still melee in a fix.
Someone has also mentioned how this could add to the snowballing effect that occurs when one team goes down the first 2/3 rounds and the other team has funds to spend on gear. Most of us know that if you go 3 rounds down in NASTe, you're pretty much done on that map as you will have default gear while the other team will be geared up - you glance on their banded armor all day while he 2 hits you through your padded shirt. Having $1000 as default just makes it even harder to climb out of the gutter; the extra $500 gives you a bit more of a fighting chance.
I know the new rules about swapping spawn and faction balance a lot of things out, but nevertheless I feel that the overall class balance in this game would suffer with $1000 gold as default instead of what we've been playing with in NA for years - the standard $1500.
As this is a topic of debate among the NASTe community right now, I just wanted to say my piece.
peace
Green
POM_Zero
Master Knight
The tournament has started but rules can and probably still will be changed.bajatmerc 说:
@Greenknight: I can see your point about not getting good equipment, I can agree. But at 1500 veigars are just op. Archers can get max armor khergit bow best arrow. Cav hunter and third tier armor. Inf third or fourth tier armor depending on armor elite scimi shield and javs. I thinkn 1000 balances out the factions, a bit. Swapping sides balances faction choice and map/spawn. i think its a perfect balance.
Ron Burgundy
Green Knight 说:
I see what you are saying GreenKnight, but the 1000 gold actually has the opposite effect on archers. With 1500 gold archers can get whatever bow they like with the best armor and possibly improved arrows (exception with a few stronger bows). With 1000 archers have to pick between the stronger bow or better armor. Either way the archers are less effective against cav or are more susceptible to enemy ranged units. Vaegirs as a whole are actually far more balanced because can can't get hunters with heavy lances, inf can't get best shield with leather and elite scim, and archers can't get lamellar with kherg bows and barbed arrows.
Sarranid actually becomes far more usable on 1000 because their crappy but cheap weaps and armor make use of their cheapness. They have no extremely powerful setups that benefit immensely from 1500. The sarra cav with normal lances rape other cav in dogfights just as much as they are supposed to, and their archers have similar bows and armor as other archers.
This may be better to discuss in a vent or something but I decided to post this here anyway
.
On a personal level, I believe 1000 gold balances the factions relatively better than 1500. I've explained why I think this several times in the past, and it's rather lengthy so unless somebody desperately wants an explanation I'll just keep this short.
In the original poll among ladder admins, I voted against 1000 because I wanted consistency between seasons 1 and 2. Teams signed up expecting 1500, and 1500 has been the "norm" in NA for quite some time. If we were to change to 1000, at this point I would rather have it done after season 2 is over because some season 2 matches have already been played with 1500.
Of course, I might be running the show but I purposefully decentralized the decision-making process to avoid controversial rule changes like this one and allow for more transparency in the rule-making process. That's why the debate on this issue is currently between the team captains. If the majority of them want to switch to 1000 gold for season 2 regardless of previous matches, then I'll switch it to 1000. If we're stuck at about 50-50, season 2 will continue with 1500 but the issue will be brought up again prior to the beginning of season 3. Obviously, if the majority want to play at 1500 then we'll continue playing at 1500.
In the original poll among ladder admins, I voted against 1000 because I wanted consistency between seasons 1 and 2. Teams signed up expecting 1500, and 1500 has been the "norm" in NA for quite some time. If we were to change to 1000, at this point I would rather have it done after season 2 is over because some season 2 matches have already been played with 1500.
Of course, I might be running the show but I purposefully decentralized the decision-making process to avoid controversial rule changes like this one and allow for more transparency in the rule-making process. That's why the debate on this issue is currently between the team captains. If the majority of them want to switch to 1000 gold for season 2 regardless of previous matches, then I'll switch it to 1000. If we're stuck at about 50-50, season 2 will continue with 1500 but the issue will be brought up again prior to the beginning of season 3. Obviously, if the majority want to play at 1500 then we'll continue playing at 1500.
Green Knight 说:
You don't make it to Banded Armor starting at 1000 gold in 4 rounds, that's with 1500. Your perception is coming from not seeing how 1000 gold works.
Also ranged are more limited at 1000, not strengthened. No top tier bows, no steel bolts, no Barbed/Bodkin arrows. (unless you trade-off armor) So now a Nord/Sarranid archer can hold it's own against a Vaegir archer.
Cav doesn't get shot down as quick, so now you don't need the extra umph (Armored horses, Great/Heavy Lances) to make them contend with the archers.
Sarranids can be chosen instead of ignored because they are not immediately outclassed.
If you've ever wondered why anyone wants to play Vaegir so bad, it's because of 1500.
An easier way of saying what Mad Dawg just did is to say that all sides are affected by the gold decrease, not just yours. If you feel disadvantaged with 500 less gold, the other team feels the same. If you're both disadvantaged equally, doesn't that make it fair?
Orion 说:An easier way of saying what Mad Dawg just did is to say that all sides are affected by the gold decrease, not just yours. If you feel disadvantaged with 500 less gold, the other team feels the same. If you're both disadvantaged equally, doesn't that make it fair?
but if you're all advantaged equally.... >.>
Ron Burgundy
bajatmerc 说:
Indeed. I always get shortbow as sarra and kherg bow as vaeg, I'm just not a fan of the nomad bow unless I have to use it
.Mr.X
Ron Burgundy 说:bajatmerc 说:
Indeed. I always get shortbow as sarra and kherg bow as vaeg, I'm just not a fan of the nomad bow unless I have to use it
bajatmerc 说:
MrNevino1 说:Ron Burgundy 说:bajatmerc 说:
Indeed. I always get shortbow as sarra and kherg bow as vaeg, I'm just not a fan of the nomad bow unless I have to use it
I like the short bow personally
It really doesn't matter which bow you personally like. The point is that the bows now scale with gold. With 1500 gold, the whole gaining gold for rounds doesn't make nearly as much as a difference as almost everyone can get good armor and weapons with the default. It takes away an aspect of the game that's supposed to be there.
