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Myths Of Warband (Open for debate) 8/07 Help needed again

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Ruthven

Baron
WBM&BVC
Parry's still in, I'm quite certain. Someone even said it was still in the module system or something, I think.


Another myth: Having a throwing axe/javelin/arrow stuck in your head and still being alive is impossible. If you survive a hit to the face, the thing that hit you disappears. Sometimes you'll get hit in the shoulder or the back and the mesh will clip through your face, but really it's in your shoulders/chest.
 

Stabbing Hobo

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&S
Ruthven said:
Parry's still in, I'm quite certain. Someone even said it was still in the module system or something, I think.
That was Urist. He didn't tell exactly what's in there, so I can't really comment on that. I can't do a thing with the module system so I'll try messing around with item editor and see what I can come up with.

UPDATE: I just changed the weight of great sword to 50 in item_kinds1, and now I need somebody to help me test it. If you like to help, join server named TestServer when I'm in.
*Just came into my mind, the server won't be a dedicated one and there's been feature problems related to dedicated servers before (At some point armour didn't work in dedicated servers, turn limit hasn't been fixed, not in 1.121, at least). I guess I should download dedicated server files).

SERVER IS UP AND RUNNING! (It's a dedicated one)
 

Stabbing Hobo

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&S
Ok, I tried to run the dedicated server but others can't see it in the server list. I presume it's because I don't have the port open, and unfortunately I don't have access to my router so I can't open them myself. Looks like I can't test this unless someone is willing to change the weapon weights for a while.
 

Stabbing Hobo

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&S
I'm from Europe so my ping would be around 150, but it's worth a shot. What I need you to do is to go to Mount&Blade Warband Dedicated/Modules/Native and back up items_kinds1. Then open the file and search for this line:
itm_sword_two_handed_a Great_Sword Great_Sword 1  sword_two_handed_a 0  6356995 9223635924301119728 1123 155668 2.750000 100 0 0 0 10 43008 96 0 120 0 285 42
and change it to (Change underlined) :
itm_sword_two_handed_a Great_Sword Great_Sword 1  sword_two_handed_a 0  6356995 9223635924301119728 1123 155668 50.0000 100 0 0 0 10 43008 96 0 120 0 285 42

This should change the great sword weight to 50, so the stun should be long enough to get clear difference if the parrying works.
 

Stabbing Hobo

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&S
I don't think password is required as without it I could as for help from anyone who's in there. Also, what time zone would that be in?
 

Stabbing Hobo

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&S
Ok, we did the testing by changing great sword weight to 50 (It clearly was a lot heavier than usually, moving with it was very slow). I noticed very interesting things:

1. The movement penalty for holding a 50kg weapon should be enormous, thinking what it is with 9kg hammer already, but it wasn't much more than that. I believe the penalty was mostly because of just carrying that much weight. So it would seem as the movement penalty for having a heavy weapon is not linear or it's capped somewhere. I may study this more later.

2. The stun with the 50kg great sword against a 1,5kg free sword was not any bigger than with a twohanded sword (2,8kg). That would mean that there's only one level of stun. Either you get the certain amount of it, or you don't. Also, the 50kg great sword did not stun the 2,8kg twohander.

3. There was no visible difference between a held block and a tapped block (parry)

Now it would seem as parrying certainly doesn't reduce the amount of stun (As it would seem to be constant) but what I keep thinking is whether it raises the amount of power you need to inflict stun in the first place.
 

MadocComadrin

Water-Borne Annelid
Count
M&BWBWF&S
Stabbing Hobo said:
Ok, we did the testing by changing great sword weight to 50 (It clearly was a lot heavier than usually, moving with it was very slow). I noticed very interesting things:

1. The movement penalty for holding a 50kg weapon should be enormous, thinking what it is with 9kg hammer already, but it wasn't much more than that. I believe the penalty was mostly because of just carrying that much weigh. So it would seem as the movement penalty for having a heavy weapon is not linear or it's capped somewhere. I may study this more later.

2. The stun with the 50kg great sword against a 1,5kg free sword was not any bigger than with a twohanded sword (2,8kg). That would mean that there's only one level of stun. Either you get the certain amount of it, or you don't. Also, the 50kg great sword did not stun the 2,8kg twohander.

3. There was no visible difference between a held block and a tapped block (parry)

Now it would seem as parrying certainly doesn't reduce the amount of stun (As it would seem to be constant) but what I keep thinking is whether it raises the amount of power you need to inflict stun in the first place.

You may have changed the weight, but you didn't change the speed rating, they are separate. Try a combo of different speeds and weights and see what happens.

["great_sword",        "Great Sword", [("b_bastard_sword",0),("scab_bastardsw_b", ixmesh_carry)],
itp_type_two_handed_wpn|itp_merchandise| itp_two_handed|itp_primary,
itc_greatsword|itcf_carry_sword_back|itcf_show_holster_when_drawn,
423 , weight(2.75)|difficulty(10)|spd_rtng(95) | weapon_length(125)|swing_damage(39 , cut) |
thrust_damage(31 ,  pierce),imodbits_sword_high ],
 

ares007

Master Knight
M&BWB
Stabbing Hobo said:
Myth #2
Tapping block instead of holding it lessens the amount of stun recieved

This is also false. There was a parrying feature at one point of the beta but it was removed at some point (I believe it was due to bugs or something).

*DISCLAIMER*
This was done in a 1.113 duel server with me using the free swadian sword and another player doing fully held overheads, and me trying to swing as soon as possible after I've blocked/parried. There was so visible difference between the two.
Hmmm, I always thought that parrying increased the amount of stun on the attacker. I've never heard of it lessening the stun on the defender.
 

Stabbing Hobo

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&S
Ok, I did some basic running test again, this time without the sprint. I timed each weapon five times (Rejecting runs which were clearly botched, less than 2 per 10 runs)
Nord huscarl, encumbrance 12,8

No weapon
Stats: Weight=0, speed=?
Times: 11,60; 11,57; 11,63; 11,61; 11,60
  ->Average time: 11.61

Nordic sword
Stats: Weight=1,5; speed=99

Times: 11,63; 11,60; 11,62; 11,62; 11,63
  ->Average time: 11,62

One handed battle axe
Stats: Weight=2,0; speed 98

Times: 11,66; 11,63; 11,65; 11,68; 11,64
  -> Average time: 11,65

War spear
Stats: Weight=2,5; speed 95

Times: 11,98; 11,97; 12,03; 11,99; 11,96
  -Average time: 11.99

Two handed axe
Stats: Weight=4,5; speed=96

Times: 11,93; 11,96; 12,01; 11,95; 11,95
  ->Average time: 11,96

At this point it was clear it wasn't about the weight of the weapon, so I tested one more:

Great long axe
Stats: Weight=4,5; speed=91

Times: 12,45; 12,52; 12,38; 12,54; 12,50
  ->Average time: 12,48


Conclusion: The weight of the weapon you're holding is not the factor, it's the speed rating of it. I should redo the stun test by messing around with the speed ratings as Madoc suggested.
 

Archonsod

Marquis
M&BWBWF&S
Stabbing Hobo said:
Turning during attack adds to damage
It's generally false. Turning on the spot will not normally improve speed bonus, turning on a horse might only if the turn affects the relative speed of your opponent and your weapon.
As you note though, there are now sweetspots in the animation where speed bonus is maximised. It therefore follows that for certain weapons (usually the longer ones) turning can improve damage if the turn means you hit at the sweet spot of the weapon rather than too early or too late.
1.Which attack it was.
Varies by weapon IIRC. Some swing "faster" than they chop, some thrust "faster" than they swing.

Also note - speed bonus affects ranged weapon damage too, with the distance and angle of the shot playing the most significant role.
Using a shield only gives penalty to weapons that can be used with one hand
For clarity's sake - the penalty is given to all two handed weapons in any situation where they are used one handed. That includes the bastard sword and similar which may be used alongside a shield (including spears and similar polearms) and also from horseback (all two handed weapons capable of being used from horseback).
If you have shields it does not matter whether you're holding one or not, the penalty you get is the standard weight slowdown
Actually, each shield adds an additional flat penalty (25% IIRC) to movement speed only. It was added to discourage the sandwich board men. The penalty applies whether you're holding the shield or it's on your back however.
There is a slowdown for holding weapons, but I discovered it's not about the weight of the weapon, it's about its speed rating.
Weight adds to encumbrance which affects movement speed only. Weapon swing times are always the base speed of the weapon modified by the relevant weapon skill (I even think it's a flat modifier, so 100% weapon skill means you swing at the listed speed, 150% means you're half again as fast and 50% means you're half as fast as the listed speed). You can literally encumber a character to the point they can barely walk forward and it will have no effect on their weapon swing speed.
ares007 said:
Hmmm, I always thought that parrying increased the amount of stun on the attacker. I've never heard of it lessening the stun on the defender.
It does.
 

Stabbing Hobo

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&S
Archonsod said:
Stabbing Hobo said:
1.Which attack it was.
Varies by weapon IIRC. Some swing "faster" than they chop, some thrust "faster" than they swing.
I tested the tutorial sword and staff. Sword was 26 for sides and 28 for overheads, staff was 24 for sides and 26 for overheads. There wasn't  a twohander to test so I can't be sure about that.

Archonsod said:
Also note - speed bonus affects ranged weapon damage too, with the distance and angle of the shot playing the most significant role.
Yeah, I know that. Anyway, I'll add that in.
Archonsod said:
Using a shield only gives penalty to weapons that can be used with one hand
For clarity's sake - the penalty is given to all two handed weapons in any situation where they are used one handed. That includes the bastard sword and similar which may be used alongside a shield (including spears and similar polearms) and also from horseback (all two handed weapons capable of being used from horseback).
Thanks, I'll edit that part to make it more clear. I seem to have forgotten what I wrote while I was writing.
Archonsod said:
Actually, each shield adds an additional flat penalty (25% IIRC) to movement speed only. It was added to discourage the sandwich board men. The penalty applies whether you're holding the shield or it's on your back however.
I did some running again and saw no difference between 5,0 kg heavy board shield (79 speed) and 5,0kg bag of javelins. Here's the times:
Swadian man-at-arms
Heavy board shield: 12,06; 12,14; 12,08; 12,15; 12,00 ->Average: 12,09
Javelins (On back): 12,09; 12,04; 12,09; 12,07; 12,16  ->Average: 12,09
There was a clear penalty with two or more shields, but it doesn't seem to apply if you have only one. Didn't the patch notes say that you get penalty for carrying more than one shield?
Archonsod said:
There is a slowdown for holding weapons, but I discovered it's not about the weight of the weapon, it's about its speed rating.
Weight adds to encumbrance which affects movement speed only. Weapon swing times are always the base speed of the weapon modified by the relevant weapon skill (I even think it's a flat modifier, so 100% weapon skill means you swing at the listed speed, 150% means you're half again as fast and 50% means you're half as fast as the listed speed). You can literally encumber a character to the point they can barely walk forward and it will have no effect on their weapon swing speed.
I was talking about movement speeds. Holding a slow weapon, no matter how light it is, will slow down your running. I'll go make that more clear.
Archonsod said:
ares007 said:
Hmmm, I always thought that parrying increased the amount of stun on the attacker. I've never heard of it lessening the stun on the defender.
It does.
Now that makes more sense, and from my experience I say it's probably true. But it's doesn't reduce the stun the defender gets. I'll test more of this at some point, along with the stun. I believe the stun seems to depend of weapon speeds rather than weights.
 

MadocComadrin

Water-Borne Annelid
Count
M&BWBWF&S
Archonsod is right about the encumberance. I was only talking about the speed rating having effects on parry and some of the other myths. The run speed, I'm pretty sure, should not be affected by the weapon speed rating.
 

Stabbing Hobo

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&S
There's supposed to be a feature that holding heavy weapons slows you movement speed down. Instead of looking at the weight stat it checks the speed. I confirmed this by changing great sword speed to 20, and with that in hand the sprint was slower than non-sprint with sword sheathed. Slow weapons do cause penalty to movement. That shows up in my running tests clearly. The jump from hand axe to war spear was big, and the fact that twohanded axe wasn't any slower (despite almost twice the weight) but the times were slightly faster with the axe. At that point it was clear it wasn't aboutthe weight anymore.
 

MadocComadrin

Water-Borne Annelid
Count
M&BWBWF&S
Why even have a weight element if it isn't going to do what it's supposed too? If that is indeed true, it's probably a bug asnd should be reported. Also, good work with the tests.
 

Stabbing Hobo

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&S
It adds to the standard encumbrance penalty. It's quite likely that stun and block crushing rely on slow speeds as well, which is actually pretty damn smart. They're slow because they're supposed to be hard to control and heavy, which means it's harder for the defender to stop the blade (Oh ****-block). But ok, I'll go report it as a bug and see if it gets rejected.
 

Stabbing Hobo

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&S
Ok, I did running again (You know, for a change) and found out that the weight of the weapon matters as well. So the penalty is based on both weight and speed.
I had a great sword at 27,5kg and 20 speed and twohanded sword with 2,75kg with 20 speed. Average times were 16,47 for great sword and 14,43 for two handed sword.
 

Stabbing Hobo

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&S
Now I did something that I've been wondering for some time already, the animation reach variations. See first post, myth #7.
Stabbing Hobo said:
Myth #7
All attacks share the same reach

Now, most people know this is not true, but I decided to get some numbers to compare. Here are the results:

Standard = Onehand overhead (+0)

1h
Overhead = +0
Left-to-right = +0
Right-to-left = +19
Thrust = +61

2h
Overhead = +15
Left-to-right = +17
Right-to-left = +13
Thrust = +80

2h Polearms
Overhead = -15
Left-to-right = -7
Right-to-left = -2
Thrust = +19

1h Polearms
Thrust = +50

*DISCLAIMER*
This test was done against a dummy, with modified weapon lenghts. Margin of error is probably around +/-3. For your information, testing this with no information about the reaches took a lot of time. If you want more accurate results someone else will have to do this.
 

diavel

Baron
WBWF&SM&BNWVC
Awesome thread. I love your "scientific" approach. I didn't know #7  :oops: (I only knew thrusts have bigger reach)
 
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