Myths Of Warband (Open for debate) 8/07 Help needed again

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Stabbing Hobo

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&S
There's been some talk about features implemented during beta and later removed or changed. I want to gather all of these into one thread where we can test whether the really exist or not, and how do they work. If you want to contribute into these things, test it. I don't give damn about how you feel or your experience unless it's done in a controlled test where you strive to eliminate all the other variables. So if you feel there's something wrong with my concepts, test it and tell the results. That way we can have more objective view on how the mechanics really work:

Myth #1
-Turning during an attack adds to damage

Myth #2
-Tapping block instead of holding it lessens the amount of stun received

Myth #3
-Using a shield slows attacks down when using a onehanded weapon

Myth #4
-Holding a shield in hand slows you more than having the same shield on your back

Myth #5
-Only the weight of the weapon you're holding slows your movement speed

Myth #6
-Overhead attacks can be chamberblocked (riposted) with thrusts

Myth #7
-All attacks share the same reach

Myth #1
Turning an during attack adds to damage

This is false. Here's a list of things that have effect on the speed bonus:
1.Which attack it was.
    -Both side swings have the same damage, overhead does a bit more (And this is not because it hits the head, practice dummies have no head bonus).

2. How long the attack was held before it was released
    -If I recall right the damage increases up to 25% (Not sure about this, just what I got in my testing) when you hold it, reaching it's maximum at 0.6 seconds and then down to 10% increase after 1.2 seconds of holding. Note that the holding time starts from the moment when the weapon is pulled back and is ready to strike. Also known as chambering. [I am not certain about these numbers but that's how the principle works.]

3. At which point of animation you hit.
    -Hitting too early or late will reduce the damage you deal. With thrusts it happens to the point where you deal no damage at close range because you hit right after the hit starts.

4. Moving (Not turning, it has no effect on damage bonus).
    Movement, both the yours and the opponent's speed and direction of movement has significant effect on the damage bonus. Positive bonus is got by you moving to the direction of the swing and opponent towards the attack, and negative vice versa. E.g, thrust while running forward to get positive bonus and negative while moving backwards. Note it's all about the relative movement of you and your target, so if you both move to the same direction at the same speed the bonus will be 0%. [Interesting fact #84: The slower the weapon is the greater the bonus will be. So at the same relative (You and your opponent's, that is) speed a weapon that has slower swing speeds will get higher bonus. This is why you can get so high bonuses while using the great lance]

*Note:
Archonsod said:
Speed bonus affects ranged weapon damage too, with the distance and angle of the shot playing the most significant role.

*DISCLAIMER*
This test was done in Warband v1.120 tutorial using the onehanded sword.
Damage with quick side swings hit at the middle of the animation did always 26 damage, overheads 28 and thrusts 24.
While holding the attacks I used only the overhead strike I got damages ranging from 26 (no holding) to 35 (Got this many times with the same amount of holding) and always 31 after holding for too long.
The 1,2 and 1,6 seconds were posted in some beta patch notes, but I'm not sure when and where nor whether I recall them correctly in the first place, but from my testing I'd say they feel about right. Note that I haven't checked it with carefully programmed macros which would provide the best results.



Myth #2
Tapping block instead of holding it lessens the amount of stun received

This is also false. There was a parrying feature at one point of the beta but it was removed at some point (I believe it was due to bugs or something). -Parrying may cause stun on the attacker. Will test later

*DISCLAIMER*
This was done in a 1.113 duel server with me using the free swadian sword and another player doing fully held overheads, and me trying to swing as soon as possible after I've blocked/parried. There was so visible difference between the two.



Myth #3
Using a shield slows attacks down when using a onehanded weapon

Using a shield only gives penalty to weapons that can be used with two hands or a shield (Bastard swords, spiked staff, lances, spears, awlpikes and thrown polearms which get 35% penalty to both speed and damage). Shortswords or whatever you're using are not faster when used without a shield. Also, the attacks are not any weaker.

*DISCLAIMER*
This was tested by timing a sequence of 25 identical strikes five times without a shield and calculating average, then same with shield in hand. Damage tested by destroying shields with identical strikes. 11 hits every single time.



Myth #4
Holding a shield in hand slows you more than having the same shield on your back

If you have shields it does not matter whether you're holding one or not, the penalty you get is the standard weight slowdown (+extra if you're carrying more than one shield). So it doesn't matter whether you're carrying a 5,0 kg heavy board shield or 5,0 kg of compressed air (In case of a single shield).

*Note: Holding block, however, does slow you down as it stops the sprint from activating. This is not restricted to shields only, so same applies for weapons as well.
(Sprint activates when you haven't pressed any other movement keys other than forward, attacked, blocked, jumped or sheathed weapon for two seconds. Doing any of these or releasing forward key will reset the timer)

*DISCLAIMER*
This was tested by running the same straight line five times with each setup. With a certain setup the fastest time was 17,57 and slowest 17.67, and with another setup 19,15-19,31. The error with running direction and timing is small enough to draw conclusions as vague as mine


Myth #5
Only the weight of the weapon you're holding slows your movement speed

There is a slowdown for holding weapons, but I discovered it's not only about the weight of the weapon, it's also about its speed lenght.
*Notes:
    -I'm talking about movement speed, not attacking speeds here.
    -There doesn't seem to be penalty for speeds of 100 and above. (I haven't tested whether there's still the weight penalty for holding it. To be tested)
    -Daegoth stated that the speed influence is now removed. Instead, weapon lenght should have an effect (Probably had before as well)
*DISCLAIMER*
See reply #34.


Myth #6
Overhead attacks can be chamberblocked (riposted) with thrusts

This was true until more recent patches. Overhead can be countered only with another overhead, whereas thrust can be countered with both thrust and overhead.


Myth #7
All attacks share the same reach

Now, most people know this is not true, but I decided to get some numbers to compare. Here are the results:

Standard = Onehand overhead (+0)

1h
Overhead = +0
Left-to-right = +0
Right-to-left = +19
Thrust = +61

2h
Overhead = +15
Left-to-right = +17
Right-to-left = +13
Thrust = +80

2h Polearms
Overhead = -15
Left-to-right = -7
Right-to-left = -2
Thrust = +19

1h Polearms
Thrust = +50

*DISCLAIMER*
This test was done against a dummy, with modified weapon lenghts. Margin of error is probably around +/-3. For your information, testing this with no information about the reaches took a lot of time. If you want more accurate results you'll have to do it by yourself.
-Shield on back: factors and effectiveness
-Stun received seems to be related on weapon speed difference
More to come, post your own hypotheses
 

MadocComadrin

Water-Borne Annelid
Count
M&BWBWF&S
Stabbing Hobo said:
Myth #1
Turning during attack adds to damage

This is false. Here's a list of things that have effect on the speed bonus:
1.Which attack it was.
    -Both side swings have the same damage, overhead does a bit more (And this is not because it hits the head, practice dummies have no head bonus) and the stab does a little less

...

...

Myth #2
Tapping block instead of holding it lessens the amount of stun recieved

This is also false. There was a parrying feature at one point of the beta but it was removed at some point (I believe it was due to bugs or something).

*DISCLAIMER*
This was done in a 1.113 duel server with me using the free swadian sword and another player doing fully held overheads, and me trying to swing as soon as possible after I've blocked/parried. There was so visible difference between the two.

Thrust attack damage is defined by the weapon entry in module_items, and is often less than swing damage but set to pierce. This will make the damage a little bit less on a training dummy, but equal if not greater on a heavy-armored opponent. Also, although parry may or may not have a functional effect, I do hear a different sound when parrying compared to just blocking. (it could be psychosomatic or leftover from code taken out.)
 

Stabbing Hobo

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&S
Forgot about the stab. Thanks for correcting.
Also the sounds seem to be random to me. There are different sounds but the "quality" of the block didn't really make any of them more frequent.
 

GerDeathstar

Knight at Arms
M&BWBNW
Interesting stuff, hope you'll find out even more.

mythbusters.jpg

I approve of this thread.
 

Qwertyman

Sergeant Knight
Nice work,  didn't know about sheathing your weapon making you run faster,  nice,  I'll be doing that in future.
 

Stabbing Hobo

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&S
We could try to build more accurate information with more complex testing and better statistics, these are just something I managed to test quickly. At some point I'll probably dig my way into block crushing.
Qwertyman said:
Nice work,  didn't know about sheathing your weapon making you run faster,  nice,  I'll be doing that in future.
I'd say it's worth doing if your weapon weight is three or above. The difference with 1,5kg sword was neglible, 17,61 held and 17,52 sheathed. This is with the sprint included.
 

Qwertyman

Sergeant Knight
Block crushing is about damage and reletive weapon weight, that much I know.  the huge weight and damage of the hammer makes it easy to blockcrush,  however the morningstar tends to need a good speed bonus to get a crush in.
also-  you CAN chamberblock hammer crush attacks,  its just very hard :razz: (tested, btw)
EDIT:  I swear your avatar was singing along to queens of the stone age just now...
 

MadocComadrin

Water-Borne Annelid
Count
M&BWBWF&S
Stabbing Hobo said:
We could try to build more accurate information with more complex testing and better statistics, these are just something I managed to test quickly. At some point I'll probably dig my way into block crushing.

Some clarity on block crushing would be nice, as there are some weapons tht say block crush that never seem to (Morning star and Sarranid mace I'm looking at you)

Also, maybe some testing with a mod that lets you see damage against other players. Then you could test it on stationary players with different types of armor.

Stabbing Hobo said:
Also the sounds seem to be random to me. There are different sounds but the "quality" of the block didn't really make any of them more frequent.

I didn't think about randomness, that could be it too.

Qwertyman said:
EDIT:  I swear your avatar was singing along to queens of the stone age just now...

I think it is saying, "Josh, Josh, Joshhhhh," glad that isn't my name *shudders*

 

Stabbing Hobo

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&S
Qwertyman said:
Block crushing is about damage and reletive weapon weight, that much I know.  the huge weight and damage of the hammer makes it easy to blockcrush,  however the morningstar tends to need a good speed bonus to get a crush in.
also-  you CAN chamberblock hammer crush attacks,  its just very hard :razz: (tested, btw)
EDIT:  I swear your avatar was singing along to queens of the stone age just now...
I was thinking more about the exact formulas. For example morningstar can crush through 4,0kg shield (Very difficult), but I didn't manage to crush a great sword (2,:cool: as easily a shield weighing 3,0. On top of that great hammer (9,0) will crush through another great hammer every single time if held for the right amount of time (No movement needed). There's more than just the weight difference.

About chamberblocking, it acts just like a normal block. A bad hit won't crush through, but most of the time it will.
 

robbyg

Knight
Qwertyman said:
Block crushing is about damage and reletive weapon weight, that much I know.  the huge weight and damage of the hammer makes it easy to blockcrush,  however the morningstar tends to need a good speed bonus to get a crush in.
also-  you CAN chamberblock hammer crush attacks,  its just very hard :razz: (tested, btw)
EDIT:  I swear your avatar was singing along to queens of the stone age just now...

Mmm im pretty sure u cant chamber block a crush attack (meaning it would of crushed thru a normal block)

Overhead swings dont always give u crush thru right? So how do u know that it would of gone thru if u hadnt chamber blocked and only normal blocked?

Im saying this because while practising chamber blocks i chambered an overhead swing from a great maul and heard the block sound u get b4 u hit and instead i was hit by the maul.
 

Qwertyman

Sergeant Knight
robbyg said:
Qwertyman said:
Block crushing is about damage and reletive weapon weight, that much I know.  the huge weight and damage of the hammer makes it easy to blockcrush,  however the morningstar tends to need a good speed bonus to get a crush in.
also-  you CAN chamberblock hammer crush attacks,  its just very hard :razz: (tested, btw)
EDIT:  I swear your avatar was singing along to queens of the stone age just now...

Mmm im pretty sure u cant chamber block a crush attack (meaning it would of crushed thru a normal block)

Ive pulled it off once or twice in practice,  so it is possible-  just very hard.  mainly due to the fact that you have to fully chamber an attack to get blockcrush, and fully chambered attacks are in themselves hard to chamberblock.
 

Stabbing Hobo

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&S
You don't have to hold it to get block crush. I've crushed through shields with quick attacks with great hammer. I've also had it blocked. It depends on the speed bonus. But the thing is, chamberblocking works like a normal block, so if it didn't get crushed, neither would have a block.
 

Qwertyman

Sergeant Knight
Stabbing Hobo said:
You don't have to hold it to get block crush. I've crushed through shields with quick attacks with great hammer. I've also had it blocked. It depends on the speed bonuses. But the thing is, chamberblocking works like a normal block, so if it didn't get crushed, neither would have a block.

fair enough,  ive only pulled it off a couple of times, so its more than possible those attacks were just non-crushing ones
 

HTAPAWASO

Master Knight
M&BWB
Two things I'm interested in if anybody knows:

1. What about a shield affects wether it will be block-crushed?
Is resistance included, or just weight?

2. What affects knockdown?
I always assumed it's speed bonus and damage but not sure.
 

Ruthven

Baron
WBM&BVC
Myth #2, IIRC, is wrong. Parry is still in, but animations aren't. It's like a slightly slower and much less awesome chamberblock.
 

mouthnhoof

Knight at Arms
WBM&BNWVC
HTAPAWASO said:
Two things I'm interested in if anybody knows:

2. What affects knockdown?
I always assumed it's speed bonus and damage but not sure.
I always wondered about that but never found a clear answer. I suspect it is the damage delivered (not the weapon rating).
 

Stabbing Hobo

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&S
Ruthven said:
Myth #2, IIRC, is wrong. Parry is still in, but animations aren't. It's like a slightly slower and much less awesome chamberblock.
To properly test this I should learn to use the module to tweak some numbers to get more extreme results. When I tested with native I didn't see any difference between a block and a parry. On top of that I recall the patch notes for parrying was removed and never put back. Anyway, I'll download the module and see what I can do with my non-existant modding skills.
 

Vornne

Count
M&BWBNWVC
Stabbing Hobo said:
Myth #4
Holding a shield in hand slows you more than having the same shield on your back

If you have only one shield it does not matter whether you're holding it or not, the penalty you get is the standard weight slowdown. So it doesn't matter whether you're carrying a 5,0 kg heavy board shield or 5,0 kg of compressed air.
I would clarify that holding the shield up - actively blocking rather than just having it in hand but not raised - does slow you down, as a result of the sprint mode that activates after you have not attacked or defended for two seconds. Another thing is the feature added in version 0.700:
Carrying multiple shields now has encumbrance penalties and makes one run slower.
In other words, extra shields have an additional penalty to speed as well as the base effect of more weight. I'm not suggesting you or other veterans didn't know this already; more for the newer players reading this thread. Information is from the version change logs I saved to a file to refer back to, uploaded here; in case someone else finds it useful. You can check in Armagan's posting history if you want verification; he doesn't post that much :wink:.
 

Stabbing Hobo

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&S
I wasn't talking about blocking, because that applies to not having a shield as well. I was just wondering whether holding a shield in hand would slow you down like a weapon does, and it didn't. Anyway, I'll add that in for clarification.

EDIT: The module system went way over my head, I've got no idea what to do with it.
 

MadocComadrin

Water-Borne Annelid
Count
M&BWBWF&S
Stabbing Hobo said:
Ruthven said:
Myth #2, IIRC, is wrong. Parry is still in, but animations aren't. It's like a slightly slower and much less awesome chamberblock.
To properly test this I should learn to use the module to tweak some numbers to get more extreme results. When I tested with native I didn't see any difference between a block and a parry. On top of that I recall the patch notes for parrying was removed and never put back. Anyway, I'll download the module and see what I can do with my non-existant modding skills.

Try making a reeeeaaaaallly slow weapon and see if you can tell the difference, and use both types of block sounds(wooden and steel) to see if there is a sound difference. I don't know what else you could tweak...maybe use the iron pole/wooden staff model so its pretty much uniform. You might also want to play around with weights. Start with really heavy and just keep getting lighter. Also test different weights against different weights, to see if parrying is affected by weight.
 
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