My thoughts on the Faction Snowball effect. Campaigns should go on forever!

[kase04]

Thanks for posting this. I noticed it in another topic aswell.

Lots of good discussion regarding how dynamically the faction balance should progress with or without player interaction. There are good arguments all around.

I have made a single simulation 10 year with the current version of the CWA mod(0.1.0a) for comparison with the unmodded simulations.
Keep in mind these simulations are a bit time consuming, so unfortunately the sample size will be low.

The conditions are the same as in the unmodded simulations, which can be seen in the OP.

Furthermore there are 4 variables in the mod which can be changed. The simulation ran using the default values:
RaidImpact = 0.05 -- every successful raid contributes X% for a chance for peace a day
SiegeImpact = 0.15 -- every successful siege contributes X% for a chance for peace a day
CasualtyImpact 100 -- every X people contributes 1% for a chance for peace
DailyCheckChance = 0.25 -- Vanilla value is 0.1 = 10%. This is the chance that they'll consider considering peace or war.


Now for the simulation

Days of faction wipe:
Day 667 - Northern Empire wiped

Area-chart

Map after 10 years

Screenshot album
LINK

Results
With the current version of the mod and its default parameter values, the balance seems to be slightly better, and more time seems to pass before factions are wiped or almost wiped.
I am also noticing that from year 7 to year 10 the curves are almost flat, which could indicate a more stable map at that point. But it is hard to say if this is random or to be expected.

The issue with 2 out of 3 Empire factions declining still persists, although in this simulation only Northern Empire wiped. Western Empire was down to 1 for a long period at the end though.

It is certainly a very interesting mod, and mod author mentions that he is working on an update to the mod, so looking forward to that. I may make a new simulation when that happens.

I would be interested to hear if someone manages an actual playthrough with this mod. Keep in mind, that there may be unknown side effects to using the mod, which the simulation does not take into account.

Now for those that prefer a very stable map while waiting for a further patches

I made a second simulation with changed parameters in the mod:
RaidImpact = 0.5
SiegeImpact = 0.9
CasualtyImpact = 50
DailyCheckChance = 0.1

Setting Raid and Siege values closer to 1 should result in peace more often after raids and sieges. This should potentially slow faction wars significantly.

Due to time contraints i did not collect data from this simulation, it just ran until 10 years had passed.

Map after 10 years

As you will notice the map is way more stable and all factions alive, but expect much shorter wars. Factions will make peace very often, which may be annoying and immersion breaking. There may also be other unintended side effects. For those that prefer the map progression to evolve this way, it could be a workaround until the issues gets fixed in patches.

It is fully savegame compatible.

When the player is ready to take over Calradia with a kindgom, the mod can just be disabled for current native experience.

This is only for those that want a stable map above all else until further patches.

Feel free to experiment with changing the parameters in your own playthroughs/simulations.

Your awesome! Ty for your efforts.

Edit: I tried the mod and works very nice.

 

[Aho]

Of course, your example with the film would be relevant if I go on treacherously invading someone’s country and ask for help, due to the lack of a marshal, and in the game with these influence points everything works very crookedly and delusionally, the military generals themselves do not have points influences probably right from the start, since they can’t get together in order to defend their country, okay, one or two military generals would not support the protection of their lands, it would not be so painful to look at the absolute helplessness of all countries.

In my save game there is now 300 gaming days, I wrote earlier that I supported Strugia so that it would not be completely erased from the history of Calradia.
He started destroying villages on the principle of AI, while the Battanians recklessly ruled there, seizing cities and castles, clicking seeds like a detachment of 400 people - this is probably some kind of ultras.
Never in the mods on the engine Varband did not rob the village, but here the game itself forces it to be done. Complete nonsense - it is so interesting to go robbing the local population, so that for more time AI could not recruit new recruits for the Lords of Battania. 4- I looted the villages nearby, I didn’t have enough strength to deal with such nonsense, they already have these villages unmeasured.
Then he went to the lands of Strugia to try to take at least one city back, so that a few more villages became for the lords of Strugia.

The only solution could be to stop the Snowball:
1. When looting a village, move the recruitment of troops for Lords to cities and castles, even if only one city remains, all the same the militia must move to this city from all the villages that were captured so that there is at least some chance for countries not to be destroyed.
2. Prohibit absolutely all transitions of Lords to other kingdoms.
3. Solve the problems of influence points between the Lords, since after defeats, their influence points apparently go negative, and without victories they cannot score enough to form a combined army for the fight.

Or do you really want to cut out all the hires of soldiers in the villages from the game, otherwise in the game only the Lords do what they rob the villages. Worn like mad in these villages - move them to castles and cities.

If two factions are at a war the raiding, battles, sieges should be done occordingly. I remember when in Warband the marshal go the army and the lords (not the dickhead ones like Braveheart ) would show up and raid a village while on their way to a siege, thats okay but if the AI here is just raiding while people in lets say Lageta are getting stabbed to death thats no good, AI needs a bump in their little brains. I like the recruitment system at the moment. At times I don't feel much difference from Warband. It's pretty same if you think about it.

 

[Snowarc]

Main thing I noticed was sieges need to be better and very improved. am not sure how the AI sim battles work fully. but its kinda off-putting to me that all battles are merely simed yet they player and only the player can *fight for real* and sieges/castles and what not are barely used in their historic defense force multiplier that they should be.

AI needs to like actually have a focus on strengthening all of its towns and beach heads make it be a game of CONTROL POINTS and points of interest then running each other down with blobs of men and winning 1-3 times in a row and knocking the enemy out of the match because they don't know how to garrison....

and sadly even if you do a real castle defense fight..... Ai cant use castle even correctly.. not to mention their poor layout.

 

[sherdil]

Im playing on realism and I can. If your faction at war it doesnt mean your relationship is bad with every village. Most of them are 0 to me and I can recruit peasants. Im even able to do quests there and buy products.

You can comment hostile action against a town and "demand recruits from nobles." I used this against Khuzait to get their units.

 

[Lucius Confucius]

It does seem pointless to have heirs if it ends so quick, so i like having heirs.

Exactly! Why have an heir system if it will end before you can utilise it?
I have faith in Taleworlds, they will come through in one way or another.

 

[TrashMan]

A war and game that last forever has no point.
I'd rather start a new game than fight the same battle, over the same castle, against the same enemy for a hunderth time.

Also, too much focus on raiding means villages will be forever stuck as poor, miserable pieces of rubble. I guess different levels of raiding could be implemented?

 

[DEM1L1CH]

Configurable War Attrition on Nexux mods, it's a very promising anti-snowball mod, I started a new game with it an some other mods and It's looking very good a few years in, will keep testing.

 

[D.O.A.]

A war and game that last forever has no point.
I'd rather start a new game than fight the same battle, over the same castle, against the same enemy for a hunderth time.

If you role play as a merchant for your entire (first) life, and your rich son decides to become king after waiting for him to age the map has been entirely taken by one faction you now need to defeat alone. If you want to intervene early and conquer the map, fine, but there's nothing else slow about this game besides the leveling. This is such a fast paced campaign map you can't even level fast enough as it stands in this build. The elaborate faction back stories mean jack sh!t when it's mindless total war from day one, so they have a long way to balance this and layer some more mechanics over it before it's an actual sandbox, if it will be. Warband really pulled that off well, you can do what you want and the game won't punish you as hard as this when you finally join the "main quest".

 

[TrashMan]

Without player pushing a faction? With proper settings I see it greatly extending the war, yes.
But no deadlock can last forever.
If you want for the world to hold the Status Quo until the player comes in, mods and cheat I guess.

The easiest way I can think off to adress all those things is a TIME FACTOR variable that you can change. How quickly time passes. As in 1 day in game = X days.
That way, sieges can take months even tough they take days and characters can age faster.

 

[D.O.A.]

Without player pushing a faction? With proper settings I see it greatly extending the war, yes.
But no deadlock can last forever.
If you want for the world to hold the Status Quo until the player comes in, mods and cheat I guess.

The easiest way I can think off to adress all those things is a TIME FACTOR variable that you can change. How quickly time passes. As in 1 day in game = X days.
That way, sieges can take months even tough they take days and characters can age faster.

People are pointing out here days are too fast, I think sieges are too fast yes it should take more than a couple days, it's so fast AI doesn't get reinforcements in quick enough. The pacing of the game is pretty weird now some things happen too quickly and some things take too long. Hopefully after this crash patch week we will see some real balance changes to the game take effect.

 

[Turbofjes]

Well, if the devs are aiming for one faction taking over that fast we'll have to rely on modding I quess. "There is no stable world" he says, as if a world ruled by one faction while anyone who would oppose them are captured by looters is anything but stable. Smh

 

[KingEagle]

EDIT: With the poll I mean that the single player sandbox experience should be able to last forever, with multiple factions always present and able to fight each other. As to the single player quest campaign, it should of course have an end.

1. Feasts and Peace.
Bring it back! Have factions at peace for longer times, right now they're just at peace for a few days at most.

2. Resurrecting fallen nations.
If the right conditions are met, have a fallen nation be able to resurrect itself in a city or a few, perhaps with a large army in its control.

3. Introduce Rebellions asap in Early Access.
This will naturally curb expansive nations. Give larger nations more stability issues.

4. Have multiple weaker nations declare war on the strongest until it is made slightly weaker, then peace time.
This is another way to slow down the big boys.

5. Make Campaign AI prioritise defence rather than offence.
Patrol borders, attack incoming armies.

6. Have Campaign AI focus on raiding more when on the offence, instead of capturing castles/towns constantly, make raiding more profitable.
Make raiding great again! This will also naturally slow down the pace of the campaign.

Updated:
7. Campaigns should be able to go on indefinitely with factions rising, falling, and should always have multiple factions on the campaign at the same time.
This will give actual use for the clan system and inheritance, since now, if one faction conquers all it is game over, and you will have no use for your heirs.

8. Lords should gather in the Capital of the factions for votes on kingdom issues. Thank you @Sithrain
This will act much like a feast and make lords less on the offence. Those who do not show up, do not get to vote.

Just my thoughts currently, may add more. What are your thoughts? Please add ways to stop snowballing and I will add them to this topic, make them numbered from 9.

+1

 

[duchuy613]

First: The AI are stupid. A Vlandian force of 300 troops attacking a Battanian force of 70 while FOUR different parties of Battanian lords with troops ranging from 59 to 130 run around not daring to get near to support the attacked Battanian force. The Battanian force would have had over 300 if they group up and reinforce each other, but they just run around and die one by one.

Second: If I remember correctly, in Warband, when a marshal starts a campaign, the lords following have their own party and just follow each other around. This allow for the enemy to split them up. However, in Bannerlord, all these parties are grouped together as one for some reason, resulting in a HUGE, singular, force that completely steam roll everyone else. Less than 200 days into the game, I saw a massive Northern Empire party consist of 9 different lords with almost 900 troops running around.
Edit: This could either be because of bad design, or a bug that stop the parties from splitting up after completing a siege? This is just my guess.

So fix the AI, they're are lords but they're as dumb as bandits running from everyone who outnumber them regardless of if they have reinforcement or not. And split the parties up to stop the overwhelming number advantage. I hope a dev could see this and fix the problem.

 

[DEM1L1CH]

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/i-have-gotten-to-1100-successfully-on-my-first-attempt-with-only-minor-snowball.407285/

check out my thread I'm getting good results with the Configurable War Attrition mod, cheers!

 

[Tutui]

Simple that way

 

[duchuy613]

check out my thread I'm getting good results with the Configurable War Attrition mod, cheers!

I saw your thread but I'm just hoping they fix the problem with real solution instead of artificially forcing empires to declare peace three or four times a week. I want the world to be in a constant state of war where all parties are fighting each other without snowballing out of control.

 

[DEM1L1CH]

I saw your thread but I'm just hoping they fix the problem with real solution instead of artificially forcing empires to declare peace three or four times a week. I want the world to be in a constant state of war where all parties are fighting each other without snowballing out of control.

Agreed. How could Warband get it so correct and here we are having problems all of a sudden? Boggles the mind

 

[Keldorn_hun]

Yes, in my campaign me and my Vlandian allies are running around the Sturgian agressors, no matter that we would have a bigger army, this snowball effect prevents us from joining forces and retilate.

 

[likenedlightsmah]

+1

 

[PogoPuschel71]

First: The AI are stupid. A Vlandian force of 300 troops attacking a Battanian force of 70 while FOUR different parties of Battanian lords with troops ranging from 59 to 130 run around not daring to get near to support the attacked Battanian force. The Battanian force would have had over 300 if they group up and reinforce each other, but they just run around and die one by one.

I agree with the core problem but this is not true. It could be that this bugs out some times. But for me it works as you describe it quite often.

I had multiple encounter where the AI keeps the distance because he had way less troops. But with my arrival simply engaged the enemy in the hope that i join. This also happend to in reverse. The AI attack me the instance there was backup nearby but keept there distance if not.