My final verdict

[Grank]

If that was true these people wouldn't last 30 seconds in enterprise software development. Gamers are SO patient and SO easy to please compared to the clients I've dealt with. I'd give multiple limbs to have even a single fanboy as dedicated to the defense of the products I've shipped as some of the white knights on here are for Taleworlds and Bannerlord.

This is just laughable. Gamers ***** and complain about a functioning product that costs $50, just because it doesn't meet their expectations. My clients pay around six millions USD (we're not even in a first world country) on average, and none of them are anywhere close to this level of toxicity.

It's not that I belittle $50. It's weeks worth of food where I live, but holy crap bro. It's not worth that much.

 

[Roy1012]

@Grank The fact that this thread, along with the many many others mentioned, has gotten so much attention speaks volumes, and whether or not you’d like to admit it, as Bloc said, the mass amount of dissatisfaction with the game is evident in both the official “proper” posts as well as the ****storm of PR taleworlds faces on this forum, steam, etc. Both are powerful but I would say these types of things are even more beneficial. You will take the time to write up your post and it will largely go unread unless it evolves into a post such as this. A small thread does little, and if 17 pages of angry customers complaining doesn’t get the devs attention, I don’t know what will. Sure, we may be wasting our time, but it’s at least worth trying.

Edit: I don’t know what you mean by your clients paying 6 million, all clients collectively or each person pays that much, if it is the latter interpretation, I imagine they have far more important things to worry about than whatever you are selling. And the point is that we want what was promised back in 2012. I was in middle school at the time, I now have graduated University. The only thing more sad than me anticipating and hoping to play this game for the entirety of high school and college is the fact that it came out so bare-bones, dull and incomplete.

 

[Grank]

@Grank The fact that this thread, along with the many many others mentioned, has gotten so much attention speaks volumes, and whether or not you’d like to admit it, as Bloc said, the mass amount of dissatisfaction with the game is evident in both the official “proper” posts as well as the ****storm of PR taleworlds faces on this forum, steam, etc. Both are powerful but I would say these types of things are even more beneficial. You will take the time to write up your post and it will largely go unread unless it evolves into a post such as this. A small thread does little, and if 17 pages of angry customers complaining doesn’t get the devs attention, I don’t know what will. Sure, we may be wasting our time, but it’s at least worth trying.

I'm aware of the situation. Again, I'm not denying that the problems exist. They do and it sucks. Notice that I kept saying our suggestion might not even get through, even if we're polite and proper, but it increases the chance. Will that increase be enough? Probably not, but as you said, it's worth trying.

From my perspective, the more posts there are, the more blurred it becomes. Short, concise feedback can sometimes be more useful than a long thread of angry yelling.

We've seen plenty of times on here that the only way to get a non-boilerplate response out of TW is to raise a big stink and get enough angry people in one thread. People respond to actions, not words. Telling us to be "proper" in feedback is a bunch of empty words with nothing behind them and will summarily be ignored until TW gives us some damn incentive for being detailed and "proper".

Nope. At the very least I know MArda regularly checks the bug reports section. That's not "nothing". They do fix the bugs too, when they can. Just because they're not as fast and big as you hope, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[Nodice83]

@Grank The fact that this thread, along with the many many others mentioned, has gotten so much attention speaks volumes, and whether or not you’d like to admit it, as Bloc said, the mass amount of dissatisfaction with the game is evident in both the official “proper” posts as well as the ****storm of PR taleworlds faces on this forum, steam, etc. Both are powerful but I would say these types of things are even more beneficial. You will take the time to write up your post and it will largely go unread unless it evolves into a post such as this. A small thread does little, and if 17 pages of angry customers complaining doesn’t get the devs attention, I don’t know what will. Sure, we may be wasting our time, but it’s at least worth trying.

That is not the first time... I am sure that neverending **** tsunami of complaints has already sunk their 'island of customer service...

 

[Roy1012]

Nope. At the very least I know MArda regularly checks the bug reports section. That's not "nothing". They do fix the bugs too, when they can. Just because they're not as fast and big as you hope, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The sad thing about this though is that there is an army of modders who would pay to get their hands on the full tools and multiplayer servers and fix everything. Taleworlds has taken from mods before (Mount & musket), so long as there is communication and consent, I don’t see why work can’t just be outsourced to modders and then taleworlds adapts the best of what modders have done into their game.

 

[Grank]

Edit: I don’t know what you mean by your clients paying 6 million, all clients collectively or each person pays that much, if it is the latter interpretation, I imagine they have far more important things to worry about than whatever you are selling. And the point is that we want what was promised back in 2012. I was in middle school at the time, I now have graduated University. The only thing more sad than me anticipating and hoping to play this game for the entirety of high school and college is the fact that it came out so bare-bones, dull and incomplete.

I was just replying to that guy's comment about gamers being so polite compared to "enterprise software" clients. No they're not. In fact, those clients can't really be rude themselves because they're in a professional setting.

Well, I've been a long fan of this series too. I played it since 2010. I was really excited when Bannerlord came out and finally replaced my 8 years old computer just to play it. However, I have a more optimistic view because I've seen what mods can do to this game. All those bare-bone dull features can be enhanced into amazing depth. As long as the engine is stable, it will work out in the end.

 

[Orion]

What other business can say "it's done when it's done" and expect that it won't piss off their customers?

Plenty of creative industries are this way, and make a point of avoiding public release dates for that reason. They'll have internal deadlines and goals, but consumers will get things when the creators are ready to release them. Music, films, basically anything in the entertainment industry operates this way up until it's ready for performance (which is when it's "consumed"). Video games are at the crossroads of engineering and art, so your argument that this is abnormal or absurd isn't very compelling. Still, it's beyond frustrating that this is the position we find ourselves in.

@Grank don't bypass the swear filter. If you want to say it, say it. We don't punish anyone for occasional swearing, only for hateful remarks like racism and homophobia. You can also disable the filter in your profile under Preferences -> Content Options. Bypassing the filter is disrespectful of people who choose to leave the filter on.

 

[WhyAmIHere]

I'm aware of the situation. Again, I'm not denying that the problems exist. They do and it sucks. Notice that I kept saying our suggestion might not even get through, even if we're polite and proper, but it increases the chance. Will that increase be enough? Probably not, but as you said, it's worth trying.

From my perspective, the more posts there are, the more blurred it becomes. Short, concise feedback can sometimes be more useful than a long thread of angry yelling.

This "angry yelling" came after months of "proper" feedback with no acknowledgement. "Proper" feedback was worth trying in May of last year. Not anymore. Even this post, the absolute best "proper" feedback post in the entire damn forum, didn't get a response until it had a dozen-plus pages of angry yelling in agreement. And that response was basically 1000 words of "No because Vision(tm)". It's "blurred" because TW allowed it to become blurred. If they want to un-blur it, they can start with some of that "engaging with users directly" and "working alongside our community" that they brag about on their steam page but have yet to do in any meaningful fashion. Silently fixing bugs does not count. That's basic stuff you do with any product. This is an EA project where they're supposed to (and promise to!) go above and beyond in user interaction.

In fact, those clients can't really be rude themselves because they're in a professional setting.

I would love to introduce you to the clients I had at my last job. For as much **** as they threw at us you'd think they were paying for us to be their stress balls rather than paying for our product.

 

[Bloc]

Feedback alone doesn't fix the game. No matter what we say here and how many people support it, if the devs don't work on it, no code will be written and no assets will be modeled.

So? That's the same in your suggestions too. Do whatever you want, spend days to give your constructive feedback, as long as they don't consider it, it won't be fixed. And that's exactly what's happening right now.

Just as nobody is in a "position" to say "stop complaining, don't be a ****" nobody is also in position to prevent others to say so.

Wrong. Discussing something and supporting/not supporting a company is one thing. But blocking people's voice by claiming "I spent x years in here, grow up kids" is another thing. This is against forum rules and that's flaming. Don't post in the forum if you can't control your temper. So when I say "Don't prevent others" I'm merely following the forum rules. Do you have some issues with that? Go discuss in forum rules board.

Also, your suggestion is not efficient. It's easier to gather 10 people who are unhappy with the game than finding 10 people who will be willing to waste their 2 hours on discussing and providing structured feedback - which many of us know that won't be even considered properly by TW at the end of the day.
And if 100 people complain about something - it's clear that there is something messed up with that and it doesn't require thousands of IQ to figure out what exactly is making people unhappy. But if some rando tries to block those people, then you won't see anything at all and when they don't see any issue or opposing voice, TW will assume that everything is "okay".

You seem to know TW pretty well. Was it always the case with them?

No it was not. In the Warband phase, they were not great - but the overall inexperienced nature of the team, price tag and indie feel was OK. But currently, TW isn't a small company anymore and they are charging for AAA price tag for a game that is barely functional ( Look at the sieges for example ). Since TW is now a bigger company, Devs don't have to engage with a fanbase like they used to be. And they know it. And many of them don't even care about overall gameplay or Mount&Blade in general - it just a regular job for them. And that's okay. However, that's not okay if CM's and PM's thinking the same. Because they can't ignore their own playerbase.

When people start to need to use mods just to have fun with the game for more than 2 hours, then it's a clear indication that you are doing something wrong as a company. Your game should be enjoyable without mods and then mods should be cherry on top. Currently, most of the mods are necessary to make the game "functional". And I'm not even talking about cosmetic necessities like Banner mods.

 

[Grank]

The sad thing about this though is that there is an army of modders who would pay to get their hands on the full tools and multiplayer servers and fix everything. Taleworlds has taken from mods before (Mount & musket), so long as there is communication and consent, I don’t see why work can’t just be outsourced to modders and then taleworlds adapts the best of what modders have done into their game.

Yeah I suppose it's got to do with protecting their IP. Not a fan of such things myself, but it's kinda necessary. It's risky to let strangers on the Internet access your source code. Even if you tie them with money and contracts, there's still a chance that they can run off with it. Even if you can find their real identity and win the legal battle, the source code will already be spread far and wide on the net.

USER=275583]@Grank[/USER] don't bypass the swear filter. If you want to say it, say it. We don't punish anyone for occasional swearing, only for hateful remarks like racism and homophobia. You can also disable the filter in your profile under Preferences -> Content Options. Bypassing the filter is disrespectful of people who choose to leave the filter on.

Oh sorry. I didn't even consider that. Won't repeat it again.

This "angry yelling" came after months of "proper" feedback with no acknowledgement. "Proper" feedback was worth trying in May of last year. Not anymore. Even this post, the absolute best "proper" feedback post in the entire damn forum, didn't get a response until it had a dozen-plus pages of angry yelling in agreement. And that response was basically 1000 words of "No because Vision(tm)". It's "blurred" because TW allowed it to become blurred. If they want to un-blur it, they can start with some of that "engaging with users directly" and "working alongside our community" that they brag about on their steam page but have yet to do in any meaningful fashion. Silently fixing bugs does not count.

What use is there in bringing up the past? It's really simple. If you still want to help improve the game, keep giving feedback. As I said, there's still a chance. If you don't want to because many have been ignored in the past, then simply don't.

 

[WhyAmIHere]

What use is there in bringing up the past? It's really simple. If you still want to help improve the game, keep giving feedback. As I said, there's still a chance. If you don't want to because many have been ignored in the past, then simply don't.

The past is instructive of the the future. We can discuss "what ifs" regarding proper feedback and "what if they listen this time" until we all drop dead, but what I'm talking about is TW's observed behavior. Proper feedback gets no acknowledgement, while angry threads sometimes get acknowledgement. Since I'm already peeved about the state of the game and TW's lack of cooperation with the community, I'm going to lean far towards the angry threads. It's as simple as that. I bear no ill will towards those who continue to give good feedback, only those who try to police and gatekeep my frustrations (and Taleworlds themselves, obviously).

 

[Grank]

So? That's the same in your suggestions too. Do whatever you want, spend days to give your constructive feedback, as long as they don't consider it, it won't be fixed. And that's exactly what's happening right now.

Wrong. Discussing something and supporting/not supporting a company is one thing. But blocking people's voice by claiming "I spent x years in here, grow up kids" is another thing. This is against forum rules and that's flaming. Don't post in the forum if you can't control your temper. So when I say "Don't prevent others" I'm merely following the forum rules. Do you have some issues with that? Go discuss in forum rules board.

Yes. That's what I've been saying. My first post that you replied you was talking about how it's equally futile, so why dismiss "reddit-level white-knighting"? From what I see, people who say anything positive about the game will get shout at. "Oh you must haven't tried Multiplayer," "You weren't here last year when EA just got released," "We've been waiting for 8 years unlike you," "People who review positively on Steam are just teenagers." The very voice-blocking you're talking about are mostly done by the frustrated people. There have been people who tried telling people to calm down, but that's more of a suggestion really.

 

[Lord Grindelvald]

Why people keep spouting this kind of nonsense I can't understand. What other business can say "it's done when it's done" and expect that it won't piss off their customers? That kind of logic means that we may never get a full release. I have no problem with TW not rushing but we're going on 9 years since the game was announced. This isn't slow development it's glacial. TW needs to be have deadlines and do they're best to meet them. They are their own worst enemy.

When I was a young stallion I used to work as a souschef in an italian restaurant (NO PIZZAS, our chef was adament about that and would chew your head off if you asked for one).
But I wish I could timetravel and listen to all the people at the dinnertable say to eachother: take it easy, its done when its done. I dont care if it takes all night.

 

[Nodice83]

TW isn't a small company anymore and they are charging for AAA price tag for a game that is barely functional ( Look at the sieges for example ). Since TW is now a bigger company, Devs don't have to engage with a fanbase like they used to be. And they know it. And many of them don't even care about overall gameplay or Mount&Blade in general - it just a regular job for them. And that's okay. However, that's not okay if CM's and PM's thinking the same. Because they can't ignore their own playerbase.

Unfortunately, there is quite the difference between big and bigger and it is clear to everybody who played their games - that they are not on AAA level (with many things) yet. All in all, people who will turn their backs on them are probably just expendable numbers TW is willing to sacrifice..

 

[prefrontal]

If I was a TW employee, even a CM, I wouldn't wanna communicate with this fanbase either lol. Doesn't really matter if it's their job, lots of people slack off at their job all the time. If I was a CM and had anything, anything at all on my docket besides checking the forum and responding to people I'd to that and take my sweet time with it. It's completely irrelevant how righteous the anger is or how reasonable the complaints... when they post the patch notes they get 100 sarcastic messages and 10 new threads on the main page meanwhile they're sitting in turkey in their flat during a hard lockdown working for years on a product they surely know is substandard... how motivated can anyone be under those conditions to post roadmaps, dev diaries and collect suggestions.

 

[AxiosXiphos]

If I was a TW employee, even a CM, I wouldn't wanna communicate with this fanbase either lol. Doesn't really matter if it's their job, lots of people slack off at their job all the time. If I was a CM and had anything, anything at all on my docket besides checking the forum and responding to people I'd to that and take my sweet time with it. It's completely irrelevant how righteous the anger is or how reasonable the complaints... when they post the patch notes they get 100 sarcastic messages and 10 new threads on the main page meanwhile they're sitting in turkey in their flat during a hard lockdown working for years on a product they surely know is substandard... how motivated can anyone be under those conditions to post roadmaps, dev diaries and collect suggestions.

If you want to see a different world - go check out the facebook group.

https://www.facebook.com/mountandblade/ 1/4 Million followers.

Happy cheerful content from regular players.


Then there is reddit - which while it does critic TW; is much more civil and friendly;

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

Basically this forum is for the diehards; and like any diehards they tend to be the most passionate about the game. It's a safe space for (and let's be honest here) complaining. Because on facebook you can't hide behind a username; and on reddit you get downvoted into oblivion.

Creative Assembly pulled out of their forum - they just post announcement there and use reddit/discord/facebook as they primary communities.

Forums remain the best place to receive real feedback - but you would be wrong to think the majority of the fanbase is represented by this forum.

 

[Nalgasucia507]

RIP MostBlunted. Your struggle is not in vain my dear prince.

 

[prefrontal]

If you want to see a different world - go check out the facebook group.

https://www.facebook.com/mountandblade/ 1/4 Million followers.

Happy cheerful content from regular players.


Then there is reddit - which while it does critic TW; is much more civil and friendly;

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

Basically this forum is for the diehards; and like any diehards they tend to be the most passionate about the game. It's a safe space for (and let's be honest here) complaining. Because on facebook you can't hide behind a username; and on reddit you get downvoted into oblivion.

Creative Assembly pulled out of their forum - they just post announcement there and use reddit/discord/facebook as they primary communities.

Forums remain the best place to receive real feedback - but you would be wrong to think the majority of the fanbase is represented by this forum.

Well, there you have it though. They post on FB every day. Sure it's just marketing but as I said, I can't really blame them. This forum at times is like customers yelling at a store clerk. The difference is that the store clerk kinda has to put up with you as long as you stay somewhat civil. The TW store clerks can just not go on the forum and why would they. They probably have no decision making power and chances are, since all discussions here are moving in a big old circle, that they have brought up all suggestions multiple times already to management and got shot down so what are they supposed to do? Just stand here and take the abuse while telling you "no"? Don't really see the point...

 

[black_bulldog]

Plenty of creative industries are this way, and make a point of avoiding public release dates for that reason. They'll have internal deadlines and goals, but consumers will get things when the creators are ready to release them. Music, films, basically anything in the entertainment industry operates this way up until it's ready for performance (which is when it's "consumed"). Video games are at the crossroads of engineering and art, so your argument that this is abnormal or absurd isn't very compelling. Still, it's beyond frustrating that this is the position we find ourselves in.

@Grank don't bypass the swear filter. If you want to say it, say it. We don't punish anyone for occasional swearing, only for hateful remarks like racism and homophobia. You can also disable the filter in your profile under Preferences -> Content Options. Bypassing the filter is disrespectful of people who choose to leave the filter on.

No the entertainment industry absolutely is on a time table. It's just that they typically don't release the date until they're sure it will happen. For example Hollywood studios are on strict time tables and going over production costs is a big deal. It happens but not all the time. As far as music goes the creative process takes as long as it takes but typically studio time isn't whenever we're done, again costs help keep that in check. I'm ok with a video game company saying we need more time because "x" or "y", but that shouldn't happen constantly. TW said the game was going to be in ea for approximately a year, but at this point it's now another 9 months. At what point do customers lose patience with a studio that shows very few improvements to the game, who keeps pushing back dates and on top of that is horrible at communicating with customers? As I said before TW are their own worst enemy.

 

[darqjoow]

RIP to MostBlunted