My final verdict

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Rungsted93

Sergeant at Arms
WBWF&SVC
I think we all can get a bit carried away at times, myself included. And the game is obviously not terrible or bad, especially not if you're a new player to the series.

But for some of us who's been waiting for 10 years, it's just dissapointing and frustrating in the sense we should've gotten so much more.
The original M&B was pretty much just Armagan (and his wife?) and it was very impressive for what it was. Then with Warband they pretty much refined the experience and I believe they scaled up to be 6-7 developers in total around that time. With Warband, the game's popularity skyrocketed and it sold millions of copies! All sorts of high quality mods came out adding tons of new features and in general taking things to the next level.

Now TW had a huge warchest from Warband, they increased their developer count to around 60-100 developers, they worked on Bannerlord for almost 10 years (there was a leaked turkish video like a year before the official announcement). They had all the succesful mods to take features from as well as the experience from Warband.

Through the years TW was of course as silent as now, and Captain Lust (old community manager) would only occasional drop in with a comment in the 1000 page discussion when our frustrations became too heated due to the silence. We were speculating about things like co-op campaign, naval battles, deep diplomacy, Nord invasion etc.

Then the infamous comment about "We expect to have the game in some shape or form in gamers' hand by the end of 2016" came around, but we were still shown and told absolutely nothing so that didn't help things either. But then devblogs started coming out more in a more consistent manner and they showed a lot of cool features (see here for summary of the missing ones: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index...se-dev-diaries-but-not-in-game-by-now.436973/ )

So 4 years after that and Bannerlord finally released in Early Access, and I know some people gave them some flak for the many bugs and crashes. However in my opinion those were not the problem, the problem was TW appeared to have cut pretty much every single corner imaginable in terms of features, even as you can see a lot of the stuff they themselves mentioned in their devblogs.

Now the battles and combat are great, but if everything else around is shallow and meaningless the battles eventually become boring as well. Additionally battles and combat is more or less together with the graphics the only aspect where Bannerlord is an obvious improvement vs Warband, which is just bizarre considering they had 10 times the workforce and they already had the formula and done the features once, it's not like they had to start from scratch with Bannerlord.

But okay Bannerlord had obviously had problems through development, and for sure they were going to eventually make the game the greatest it can be right? Nope, every suggestion which apparently takes more than 10 minutes to do is denied, features which Armagan probably did in a few afternoons 10 years ago by himself now suddenly takes months to do (Keep battles, Prison break). The game lacks all those "extra" features which might not be essential but it's what makes an okay game great and TW shows no ambition nor interest in actually adding these. Just see this thread: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index...cess-roadmap-ready-for-you-taleworlds.440590/

So yeah sorry for the rant, but I hope it makes it a bit clearer at to why some people are frustrated about the game.
 
" Nope, every suggestion which apparently takes more than 10 minutes to do is denied, features which Armagan probably did in a few afternoons 10 years ago by himself now suddenly takes months to do "this this is my same problem.I rly love this game I have 700+h since day one but for **** sake call me obsesiv but to not add a simple think like banners in a game called bannerlord...with the cloth physics in the game,or to add a mechanic like fortified camp like in viking conquest a dlc made by some former moddesrs or to make the kings and clan leaders to not have proper civilian clothink for their status is rly ****ing weird.this are not game changing need to remake the code etc etc thinks...like rly what is so hard to add some cloth on a speer...
 
M&B Bannerlord is a sad story. I was with M&B since like 2016 and 1866 western mod. I guess I'm not the only one that found out the series thanks to mods, it's probably the case for majority of fans. The broken promises of delivering the game in 2016, 17, 18 etc, good promotional materials that cheated the reality a bit (they promised things in 2016 that are not yet in the game, mid 2021), it all casted a shadow, but I gave it a shot and bought an early access. Of course we know how it works and how it does not. I've seen their code quality in an open letter points, I slowly realized that there's no chance of getting this game in good shape, it will forever be a mess, patched by a great modders community, real die-hard fans. Now I hear they work on space game and I know it's the end for me, I won't buy anything more from them.

I feel kinda sorry for MostBlunted, he was caring a lot, tried to point out broken things, sometimes in not polite way, but the thing is - he was mostly right about the state of the game. I regret buying it, wasting time, giving chances every patch and I give up. The thrill is gone for me, seeing it's progress, well maybe in 1.6 they will give us some thing promised back in 2017, then break 10 other things. The whole app feels like it's a tightly coupled crap software. New patch? All mods are not compatible. Some real in-game modding tool that will still load them and not crash the whole app? Nope. Some lore, good narrative? Nope, most of us could write a better story, now it's like - gain renown, meet lords, ask about the battle, assemble dragon banner, how sublime. I think their hype train was long and we expected too much. The game, in all honesty, is now like 5/10 for nice battles, but empty, lacking world and lackluster plot. I think it would get to an honest 6/10 when it's officially released but that's all. Missed chance for the greatest medieval experience and it's a shame.

Having said all of this, I'm 100% sure that even though TW is not doing well with the core game, thanks to mods and modders, I'll some day be back due to mods. Funny, but not.
 

kreamy

Sergeant
I think we all can get a bit carried away at times, myself included. And the game is obviously not terrible or bad, especially not if you're a new player to the series.

But for some of us who's been waiting for 10 years, it's just dissapointing and frustrating in the sense we should've gotten so much more.
The original M&B was pretty much just Armagan (and his wife?) and it was very impressive for what it was. Then with Warband they pretty much refined the experience and I believe they scaled up to be 6-7 developers in total around that time. With Warband, the game's popularity skyrocketed and it sold millions of copies! All sorts of high quality mods came out adding tons of new features and in general taking things to the next level.

Now TW had a huge warchest from Warband, they increased their developer count to around 60-100 developers, they worked on Bannerlord for almost 10 years (there was a leaked turkish video like a year before the official announcement). They had all the succesful mods to take features from as well as the experience from Warband.

Through the years TW was of course as silent as now, and Captain Lust (old community manager) would only occasional drop in with a comment in the 1000 page discussion when our frustrations became too heated due to the silence. We were speculating about things like co-op campaign, naval battles, deep diplomacy, Nord invasion etc.

Then the infamous comment about "We expect to have the game in some shape or form in gamers' hand by the end of 2016" came around, but we were still shown and told absolutely nothing so that didn't help things either. But then devblogs started coming out more in a more consistent manner and they showed a lot of cool features (see here for summary of the missing ones: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index...se-dev-diaries-but-not-in-game-by-now.436973/ )

So 4 years after that and Bannerlord finally released in Early Access, and I know some people gave them some flak for the many bugs and crashes. However in my opinion those were not the problem, the problem was TW appeared to have cut pretty much every single corner imaginable in terms of features, even as you can see a lot of the stuff they themselves mentioned in their devblogs.

Now the battles and combat are great, but if everything else around is shallow and meaningless the battles eventually become boring as well. Additionally battles and combat is more or less together with the graphics the only aspect where Bannerlord is an obvious improvement vs Warband, which is just bizarre considering they had 10 times the workforce and they already had the formula and done the features once, it's not like they had to start from scratch with Bannerlord.

But okay Bannerlord had obviously had problems through development, and for sure they were going to eventually make the game the greatest it can be right? Nope, every suggestion which apparently takes more than 10 minutes to do is denied, features which Armagan probably did in a few afternoons 10 years ago by himself now suddenly takes months to do (Keep battles, Prison break). The game lacks all those "extra" features which might not be essential but it's what makes an okay game great and TW shows no ambition nor interest in actually adding these. Just see this thread: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index...cess-roadmap-ready-for-you-taleworlds.440590/

So yeah sorry for the rant, but I hope it makes it a bit clearer at to why some people are frustrated about the game.
You make a lot of good points.

What the hell are they doing? What is taking them so long? And why are they not communicating the explanations to us?

Do they not care or is there a deeper conspiracy?

Blows my mind everytime - I literally don't know.

Also, I stopped playing after they introduced 1.5.7 (i think education). There don't seem to be any substantial changes, and the 1 year anniversary doesn't strengthen their track record at all (in terms of delivery).

I don't see how they can finish this game in under 3 years at this pace...
 

Emil

Squire
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
We stood ready to help, but they dismissed and kept server communities, clans, regiments, modders and tournaments handicapped for over a year.
 

Ser Jon

Squire
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
" Nope, every suggestion which apparently takes more than 10 minutes to do is denied, features which Armagan probably did in a few afternoons 10 years ago by himself now suddenly takes months to do "this this is my same problem.I rly love this game I have 700+h since day one but for **** sake call me obsesiv but to not add a simple think like banners in a game called bannerlord...with the cloth physics in the game,or to add a mechanic like fortified camp like in viking conquest a dlc made by some former moddesrs or to make the kings and clan leaders to not have proper civilian clothink for their status is rly ****ing weird.this are not game changing need to remake the code etc etc thinks...like rly what is so hard to add some cloth on a speer...

It seems trite to point out, but yes, the no banners thing in a game called Bannerlord is quite something. I shouldn't have to download external things in order to "sorta" make a banner. And pouring salt on the wound is that you can't even add more than one charge to your flag without an external site and a mod. Just one of the many small things missing that Warband had that really shallows the game. I do have faith they can do it, eventually, but it's hard to keep with one year behind it and I could count new features on one hand. Looking through Nexus Mods, and it looks like most modders even gave up. So many left on old versions or abandoned. It's sad. :sad:

I did read a remark by the community manager about the mod state and its tools, so some faith has been restored, however not being a modder myself I can't really say.
 
It seems trite to point out, but yes, the no banners thing in a game called Bannerlord is quite something. I shouldn't have to download external things in order to "sorta" make a banner. And pouring salt on the wound is that you can't even add more than one charge to your flag without an external site and a mod. Just one of the many small things missing that Warband had that really shallows the game. I do have faith they can do it, eventually,
They confirmed they'll do this, but someone is waiting for someone else to do something first and things go slowly. Nothing is ever easy in Taleworlds.
Modders on the other hand don't wait for the planets to align before they can do some work, they are more interested in results than excuses.
 

black_bulldog

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SVC
They confirmed they'll do this, but someone is waiting for someone else to do something first and things go slowly. Nothing is ever easy in Taleworlds.
Modders on the other hand don't wait for the planets to align before they can do some work, they are more interested in results than excuses.
Even if you're poking fun, I think you hit the nail on the head. It's become apparent to anyone whose paying attention that TW management is a joke. The company acts like they're a government with 10K's of employees with dozens of layers of burauracy not a company with 100 or so people. I really wonder if @armagan even cares anymore, because if he did then he'd fix this mess.
 
It seems trite to point out, but yes, the no banners thing in a game called Bannerlord is quite something. I shouldn't have to download external things in order to "sorta" make a banner. And pouring salt on the wound is that you can't even add more than one charge to your flag without an external site and a mod. Just one of the many small things missing that Warband had that really shallows the game. I do have faith they can do it, eventually, but it's hard to keep with one year behind it and I could count new features on one hand. Looking through Nexus Mods, and it looks like most modders even gave up. So many left on old versions or abandoned. It's sad. :sad:

I did read a remark by the community manager about the mod state and its tools, so some faith has been restored, however not being a modder myself I can't really say.
the most wew lad factor is the video from 2017 I think with the vlandian vs empire and you can see banners on the speers and how they rly ****ing work(it ****ing blow my mind how quite good the cloth works in this game just look at the cloacks when you move)and to put salt over the woond the mod team of for jerulasim 2...they have the tipical early/high medieval banners.and to top over the funny part the modders of 1051 AD for total attila with a verry limited mod tools cuz CA are weird like that are making the factions and units from zero with new political system like 1212 AD(another mod)and even new arhitecture tipical for the period a think that even the guys from 1212 didnt do.I rly love bannerlord so many times is imersing me in the world most of the visual details are wow the battles are great the fact that I won a battle with 300 vs 800 using formation and actual tactics was wow and how to soldiers have difrent cheers if win the battle with less or more casulties.yet the game needs more detail in the world more activities during peace time thats why viking coquest was such a blast(for me personal)i was exploring roman ruins did quest for the people at the hadrian wall and the dude rewarded me with his son as a companion went to the monestery(this is one of the reasons that world of calradia need a religion system in a way or another despite weirdos going "uh i dont want religion in my games"for example in viking conquest i recived a village in northumbria and most of the people are pegans so they were nothappy with me so I builded a church in order to convert the population this level of detail we need)hunting grounds take the ideea from the mod medieval conquest were you can organize hunting parties in order to improve relations with other lords.Another this was a ****ing lie moment for TW...they said that the village improvments wil be show on the actual scene...and I was ok good cuz rly hated the fact that in warband it was just a text improvment and behind the scene but well TW was nah fam i am just joking
 
https://www.moddb.com/mods/medieval-conquests I want you guys to look over the feature list of this mode.Is a mode that is made by normal people not devs not nothing even in the area of a indie company.TW once did a great think,they hired the guys from britwalda another good mod to make viking conquest,i dont understand why they dont hire the guys from medieval conquest in order to help them make this kind of features.medieval conquest is having a good and simple diplomacy system that works(this is a problem that I have with the players that hur dur dur give us CK 2/3 diplomatic system...it will not work and this is how I know they just watch youtubers playng the games not actual playng the game since the diplomacy in this games can become quite overwhelming same fot the kindom mechanics and it would not be fun in a game like m&b)and if TW are not doing more complex game features like this mod in hopes of having more of a bigger sales for casual gamers...the game is well even in this state not a game for casual gamers since well....you are not a poewr fantasy dude from zero to hero to god level of op twat and killing hundrets of soldiers alone with your legendery magic axe of cardi b wap :smile:
 

Ser Jon

Squire
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
They confirmed they'll do this, but someone is waiting for someone else to do something first and things go slowly. Nothing is ever easy in Taleworlds.
Modders on the other hand don't wait for the planets to align before they can do some work, they are more interested in results than excuses.

Oh, okay, but which part? Add banners to in game soldiers etc, or fix their rather crap banner editor and its limited flexibility? Maybe both? I think I would shut up about it forever if they just told me I could import my own art work into the game, as I could on Warband. :lol:
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
I think indirectly he's the cause, because it's pretty apparent he's a terrible manager. But if he can't or won't do it properly then he needs to find someone who can.
A lot of the cut features and TW not implementing player suggestions are him vetoing any idea that adds to development time.
 
The big jump in company numbers might have had something to do with the development of this game. While having 100 staff vs 12 from previously may make it seem like it would be a lot easier of a job, it's not necessarily always the case. If that jump in numbers happens quickly, it's likely that they are not used to it, and it ends up being a much more difficult ordeal to coordinate, communicate, and have the same passion and vision for the project. When there are only a few developers, usually they are very well-coordinated, share the same passion and vision, share the same effort, and can work together more efficiently. If you grow too quickly, the development of a project might seriously be hampered by the sudden change. It all of a sudden becomes a lot more difficult, with a bunch of new challenges.

One team may be developing feature A, another team may be developing feature B that completely contradicts feature A and does not work together at all, possibly only seeable under the surface, and both teams and management are completely oblivious to the problem. A major contradiction may go unrecognized for a very long time until it is realized that they are operating in relatively different planes of existence. Smaller numbers can coordinate those things better, especially if the larger numbers are not properly accustomed to the environment.

Not to mention things such as office politics and bureaucracy that you get with larger numbers. Armagan probably bit off more than he can chew with the rapid company growth, but it still likely has enough benefits to the point where he wouldn't want to get rid of the numbers. Clearly the dynamic in TW is different when Warband takes a couple of years to make, and Bannerlord takes 8-10 years to make, and it's worse and less feature-complete than Warband. I could also be completely wrong and talking nonsense, as it's just a random thought.
 

Old-Bull

Squire
Thank you to the devs for making this MostBlunted's "final verdict". Theres no way it would have been his "final verdict" without the ban.
 
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