Music's Copyright in a Warband mod

[DanyEle]

Good day everyone! I'm opening this new thread to ask you all whether it's allowed or not to use someone else's made music in a Warband module. This question came to my mind after i said in my mod's thread that i'd have used original Star Wars musics. The thing is: some people said it's allowed

Im fairly sure that as long as you dont sell the music you are free to use it. For example, if you use music like that on Youtube, they will put ads on the video in order to pay for the usage permission, or something. In any case, mods can use all the music they want, as far as I know.

Whereas others say it's not

It doesn't work that way. Distributing copyrighted music without permission is illegal.

You can't give away something that doesn't belong to you. Distributing music via a mod to other people is the same as peer-to-peer. Handing out someone else's music is illegal, pure and simple.

Instead of going off - topic in that thread, i thought to open a new thread in this section. So: is using someone else's made music in a mod legal or not? And if  some notes or parts were modified, would it be possibile?

Your thoughts...

 

[Leifr Eiríksson]

Don't listen to Temezu.

Do listen to MadVader and Mandible. You cannot distribute original Star Wars music with your mod. It's a quick way for your mod to be shut down, as well as spilling over and causing TaleWorlds some trouble. There's a reason as to why Star Wars Conquest and the Last Days both saw their forum hosting elsewhere...

 

[Wellenbrecher]

If you get someone to do a cover it should be ok, no?
Just by looking at how Youtube and co treat this type of stuff it certainly seems to be that way.

And no, that most certainly wouldn't mean a slap jack edit that removes three or four notes randomly scattered over the song.

There's a reason as to why Star Wars Conquest and the Last Days both saw their forum hosting elsewhere...

Well, just using the name and setting in itself is a problem trademark wise.

 

[DanyEle]

If you get someone to do a cover it should be ok, no?
Just by looking at how Youtube and co treat this type of stuff it certainly seems to be that way.

And no, that most certainly wouldn't mean a slap jack edit that removes three or four notes randomly scattered over the song.

There's a reason as to why Star Wars Conquest and the Last Days both saw their forum hosting elsewhere...

Well, just using the name and setting in itself is a problem trademark wise.

What do you mean with a "cover"? And do you think there could be Name copyrights problems too?

 

[Wellenbrecher]

Do you see any mods that have any famous trademaks as a basis hosted on this forum? No you don't.
Mostly because the trademark holders don't like it and some of them are ****s enough to send cease and desists. Which TW doesn't want anything to do with.

Covers, such as this is a cover of this.
Or, if you were lucky enough to life in good ol' Germany you would have a good third of YouTube blocked for copyright reasons. Yet people covering blocked songs are fine, even when they montize it.
See Pomplamoose for example.

 

[hairfree]

If you get someone to do a cover it should be ok, no?

No. Been there, done that. The chord progression itself should belong to its respective owner, thus permission's mandatory. Youtube cover copyright policies are a whole different matter.

As for modifications to a chord progression, to my understanding, they'll have to be heavy in order for law monkeys not to squeek.

 

[QuailLover]

General rule of thumb would be, to make your own music. Makes life easier.

 

[faradon]

If you get someone to do a cover it should be ok, no?

No. Been there, done that. The chord progression itself should belong to its respective owner, thus permission's mandatory. Youtube cover copyright policies are a whole different matter.

As for modifications to a chord progression, to my understanding, they'll have to be heavy in order for law monkeys not to squeek.

Chord progressions will never ever be copyrighted. You're thinking of melodies.

 

[hairfree]

Indeed...Though not quite. Something in between.

To simplify the explanation (mostly for my currently-drunk head, lacking the will and skill to write in proper English grammar) with an example, take Pagan's work on Star Wars Conquest. Those kind of elements are allowed. Just. Anything more 'accurate' than that's illegal and you may get your arse sued to oblivion and back.

For some reason I keep remembering the "Scrolls" drama, from not so long ago, too. Though it ended with compromise in the end. Still, more trouble than it's worth.

In any case, I wouldn't trifle with Disney. Mickey Mouse is a formidable enemy.

 

[faradon]

Well, I'm sure that copyright discussions concerning music is a tricky thing. There's only so much variation you can have without creating little to big parts that have been created before in some way. And I'm sure there's much dirty stuff going on regarding copyrights because it obviously gets you quite some money. It could even be possible to sell a track without knowing there's another one that sounds just like yours if you're unlucky. Anyway, I'm kinda drifting away from the thread...

 

[Barry_bon_Loyale]

Interesting topic. 

Using copyrighted music in user creations has had a long precedent.  If you look at HeavenGames communities for RTS games, such as Age of Empires 2: Age of Kings, Age of Mythology, Empire Earth, or Empires: Dawn of the Modern World, almost all campaigns and scenarios that use music use copyrighted music.  I can hardly think of an exception.  It wasn't just obscure indie composers either; it was mainly major motion pictures soundtracks or current pop tunes.  This was commonplace and accepted.  No one ever said a word about it, no legal troubles whatsoever.  That's them, however.

In the case of Taleworlds, I believe an administrator said Taleworlds is against the practice.  Maybe I didn't read it from one directly; maybe I heard it from a secondary source and took them at their word.  Either way, if that's Taleworld's policy it would be wise to respect that.

You do of course have options.  One is getting permission from the respective holder.  Jeff van Dyck, a composer for a good portion of the Total War series, have his blessing for music to be used in Mount & Blade mods, granted it wasn't used for any sort of money or profit.  Not that this really applies to Mount & Blade, but the President of DC comics gave his blessing for DC comics material to be used or created, so long as it wasn't for any profit (so you can make a Batman or Superman mod if it strikes your fancy). 

The other option is to host your mod elsewhere, which some mods have done.  The odds of you getting slapped with a "cease and desist" order are probably nil.  The obscure examples people may dig up are the exception, certainly not the rule.  With the amount of copyright violation going on in the world, the respective holders have bigger fish to fry.

My recommendation is that you create material over which no one can claim intellectual property (such as an historical era or a fictional world of your own creation), much less copyright.  In terms of music, go ahead and try to get permission from the music's creator (like the case of Jeff van Dyck).  If you cannot get permission, respect Taleworld's stance on it.  There are alternatives as well, such as using non-copyrighted music or using music from other Paradox Interactive games, which I believe some mods have done.  If any of this is not true, maybe an admin can clear it up, but that's my understanding of it. 

 

[Jhessail]

Copyright laws are also different in different countries, though both US and EU are trying to apply their laws over the globe.

The rule of thumb is that you can use copyrighted music only when you have permission from the copyright holder or when you invoke "Fair Use" - that is, you use short segments of the music for review, teaching or other similar purposes. You cannot use the whole song or even a "majority" of it, which is why Youtube reviewers often have the same few clips looping in their videos.

Many classical artists are outside of copyright nowadays, so using their compositions is a safe bet. Then the only problem becomes that the actual performances by modern orchestras and so are still copyrighted to their recording companies.

At the end of the day, creating your own music from scratch or utilizing short samples from other's pieces is the safest way to go. You could ask around in your school / family / friends if anyone would be inclined to create some music for you.

 

[Temuzu]

Hmm. So let me get this straight. Using copyrighted stuff, like the Star Wars universe, is nothing to worry about, however, when you bring music into the mix, everything goes down the ****ter?

 

[faradon]

Hmm. So let me get this straight. Using copyrighted stuff, like the Star Wars universe, is nothing to worry about, however, when you bring music into the mix, everything goes down the ****ter?

You cannot distribute recorded compositions from somebody else without his yes. But you can get your own musicians and play a composition to use it if it's older than 75 years afaik. Taking the star wars soundtrack and putting it into a mod would be basically the same as uploading it for illegal sharing.

 

[Swadius 2.0]

If you get someone to do a cover it should be ok, no?

It should be absolutely fine. Some songs that other artists do, if they make it different enough, can escape paying royalties to the original writer of the music.

In the case of using this sort of music for mods, I think it would be fine to use covers that more or less is just a recreation of the theme itself by people who do little to tweak it (though I still recommend using ones that sound different just in case), since you're not making any money from it, it will give you much more leeway.

Hmm. So let me get this straight. Using copyrighted stuff, like the Star Wars universe, is nothing to worry about, however, when you bring music into the mix, everything goes down the ****ter?

Technically Disney would be legally backed if they told the modders to stop modding it and releasing the stuff as well. Take the LoTR mod for the elder scrolls for instance, it was cancelled because of copyright issues. The best thing you could do, not that I suggest it, is to just keep your head down. You could use the argument that there are many other mods that use copyrighted material, but do keep in mind that in this argument there are two general outcomes: either they allow stuff to be in mods, or they stop all the other mods you listed as well. It's simply not worth raising this argument because of the latter.

 

[Suspicous Pilgrim]

The thing is, that LotR mod was very, very high profile. I think that Warner Bros realized that the mod would probably be a better game than the current ****ty ones they keep churning out.

 

[Ruthven]

If you aren't making any money off it, they will probably not give a ****. The worst thing that would happen would be them asking to remove the music from your mod.

Giving credit to the original composer/players is a good idea too.

 

[DanyEle]

In the end, i've decided to remove all the official Star Wars soundtracks that i had added and i'm going to let Forum users submit their own ones - either modified from the original Soundtracks or created from scratch.  This could be the best way to avoid paying royalties and copyright infrangements.