Multipel ammunitions

[nox]

For example, dragoons should be using dragons (i.e., short-barreled shotguns) not pistols firing a ball.

Only if they're French. Tbh I think we're about 20 years or so too late for the dragon (though I'm not 100% sure if the carbine was in use yet).

  Because smoothbores were used, you could fire practically any of these weapons with shot instead of a slug

  They'd shoot, but they wouldn't necessarily have any stopping power. If the weapon isn't specifically designed to take a shot load there's as much chance of you getting a nice explosion followed by the bullets rolling out of the barrel as there is of firing it. Even if you did successfully load and fire shot, the odds on it causing any serious damage are rather low - even the fowling pieces of the time tended to have trouble killing anything larger than a pigeon.

dragoons remained in use for such a long time largely because of those deadly little shotguns they carried

Dragoons remained in use because they were mobile infantry. Technically, modern mechanised infantry is no different from a dragoon. They didn't carry shotguns either; the first use of a shotgun in battle is WW1; the closest prior to that would be akin to the blunderbuss and similar designs which were almost exclusively used by naval forces (replacing the swivel mounted small cannon)

Moreover, shotguns of various types were quite common by this period, and as anybody who knows about guns will tell you, a shotgun is an excellent weapon for killing people with.

Actually shotguns are poor weapons for killing people with, as anyone familiar with body armour will tell you

A couple of misconceptions here -

Buck and ball and blunderbuss were common in this period, and the dragoons name comes from the weapon they typically carried called the 'dragon' which was in fact a blunderbuss, typically using shot.

The shotgun is per-shot the most lethal firearm in current use, arguments about body armor aside.  Lethality and general effectiveness are not the same thing, obviously and the application is situational.

That said, I doubt that I can convince the developers to do what I really want which is to add accuracy, range and reload speed modifiers to ammo.

That will have to be handled on a per-weapon basis.

 

[lotsofpaper]

So, the different guns would act differently but use the same ammo item?

You guys must remember, even if shotguns aren't good at armor penetration, the majority of enemy units do not have armor!

If you take a weapon that deals 90 damage, and replace it with one that deals 15 damage 6 times, it will deal the same amount of damage to most enemies. You may not be able to take down Winged Hussars with it, but most enemies (looters, bandits, archers, raiders, light cavalry) will die pitifully.

 

[nox]

So, the different guns would act differently but use the same ammo item?

You guys must remember, even if shotguns aren't good at armor penetration, the majority of enemy units do not have armor!

If you take a weapon that deals 90 damage, and replace it with one that deals 15 damage 6 times, it will deal the same amount of damage to most enemies. You may not be able to take down Winged Hussars with it, but most enemies (looters, bandits, archers, raiders, light cavalry) will die pitifully.

I'm experimenting with it.  It may not be possible to do, and really it's not necessary, I just got a wild hair.

 

[xenoargh]

You could get around it the same way I did.  Feel free to read my source for ammo systems.  It's not perfect, and I'd much rather have cone detectors for shotguns, personally, but it'd work.  The latest version of Fancy Damage System could very easily do the multi-hit concept and then juggle for armor.

@Archonsod:

1.  Trying to define a precise time when dragoons weren't carrying shotguns at all puts us well into the 19th Century.  You've got to remember that while the smoothbore existed, it could be used with a wide variety of shot types, and despite your comments to the contrary, soldiers and hunters obviously thought otherwise about accuracy and energy problems, hence the popularity of buck and ball. 

2.  I know a few black-powder folks.  My understanding is that with smoothbores, the wadding, not the shot, is what's using the mechanical forces of the burning powder.  Basically, the shot rides the wadding out of the bore, whereupon the different properties of the two materials causes the shot to keep going while the wadding rapidly loses its kinetic energy.  This is why cannons of this period could use so many crazy types of shot, and this was replicated to some degree in the area of personal arms.

3.  Against really modern body armor, a shotgun is perhaps not capable of penetrating... but you really, really don't want to get hit anyhow.  A 12-gauge is quite capable of taking off limbs or a head, so even if you're wearing modern ceramics, it's almost guaranteed that you'll be knocked down and stunned.  Against the body armor of this period, shot would have been fairly effective, although the lower muzzle velocities must be taken into account; getting shot with a dragon, musketoon or carabine with a shot load would have been less effective, per-pellet, than a pistol round, but certainly not harmless.

4.  IDK where the hunting comment comes from.  I have three relatives that use black powder smoothbores to hunt with, and I've never heard them complain about a lack of power; nor is accuracy anything like as bad as it's depicted in the game.  Granted, these are modern reproductions, but they're still smoothbores and are probably no better than midrange period weapons in terms of their mechanical quality.

 

[nox]

You could get around it the same way I did.  Feel free to read my source for ammo systems.  It's not perfect, and I'd much rather have cone detectors for shotguns, personally, but it'd work.  The latest version of Fancy Damage System could very easily do the multi-hit concept and then juggle for armor.

Thanks for the invitation.  Likewise, once the module system is public, feel free to make code-level suggestions. 

 

[11sparky11]

  The latest version of Fancy Damage System could very easily do the multi-hit concept and then juggle for armor.

Is there a post for this 'Fancy Damage System' ?

 

[xenoargh]

Thanks for the invitation.  Likewise, once the module system is public, feel free to make code-level suggestions.

NP, that's why it's Open Source.  The code you'll want to read is common_damage_system_1 and _2, in module_mission_templates.  Keep in mind that there is some stuff that's specific to Blood and Steel there, like the party / personal skills that don't exist in Warband.  But it's a working system for dealing with damage in all sorts of ways with a lot of examples, reasonably well commented.

Another thing you guys might want to check out is the economy rewrite and the handling of trade good pricing.  That's a decidedly non-trivial port, but it would make getting things like caravans under control really easy.

And yeah, I'll look at stuff when the code's out.  Can't spare time for major things, busy on my own game atm.  But most of the things that need doing most aren't major things, imo.  Just crap like getting balance cleaned up in various ways, bug-hunts on specific stuff, and improving a few of the mechanics.

Oh, one request on that note:  for the initial release, you'd make modders really happy if the items were organized in module_items by type, like I did for Blood and Steel, where it's all more-or-less categorized.  I know it can't stay that way if new things are added, due to savegame issues, but for the initial release, that would help a lot, in terms of doing balance analysis stuff.  I know that's an hour or three of drudgery, but trust me on this; it'll help a lot, in terms of balance discussion and changes, if all of the items are stacked according to type.

Nevermind.  I forgot that you'd hose existing savegames, which would lead to mass howling.  If it wasn't done initially, I guess you're screwed, then.  It makes things so much harder to fix, though, that I'm tempted to say that savegames should get broken, this one time, unless you've got it all in a spreadsheet or something.  Else I can't really offer to do much in that regard without offering it in a way that will break saves, because it's the first thing I did when I saw how much of a mess Warband's items lists were, heh.

Is there a post for this 'Fancy Damage System' ?

Yes, but that release isn't anywhere near as nice as what's currently in the Blood and Steel source.

 

[nox]

Economy has always been my biggest beef.  There's a tremendous untapped potential there that is just ripe for making a sensible and reasonable system.

 

[xenoargh]

Well, the code's available.  Readable, IDK.  It was probably the most complicated single piece of code, unwinding the old stuff and creating a more rational system.

Keep in mind if you go looking at that (I'd suggest simple_triggers, looking at taxes and population growth) there's a fair amount of junk I didn't deal with, simply because it didn't matter.  There are a bunch of orphaned variables in constants, that sort of thing.

But yeah, the M&B economy is terribly over-engineered and would benefit greatly from simplification, from the standpoint of game balance and keeping the design coherent.  It's so tempting to add lots of complexity to it, but it's a temptation that should be avoided, imo; this isn't a game about economics, and if it's too complicated it just eats developer time trying to find / fix loopholes and bugs.

 

[gh3tt0 gangst3r]

You could get around it the same way I did.  Feel free to read my source for ammo systems.  It's not perfect, and I'd much rather have cone detectors for shotguns, personally, but it'd work.  The latest version of Fancy Damage System could very easily do the multi-hit concept and then juggle for armor.

Thanks for the invitation.  Likewise, once the module system is public, feel free to make code-level suggestions.

if it ever goes public..........

 

[Wotann]

it would be cool if the cannons on the forts where usable and u could put grape shot in them, or canster shot (or r they just the same thing, i think grape shot is use against sails on an enemy ship?)

Canister shot would be ~120 years too early.
Chain shot was used against sails on an enemy ship.

Canister shot is the army version of grape shot that is used by the navy. And grape shot was used earlier than canister shot, if I'm not mistaken.
Grape shot were used against the crew of a ship, quite effectively killing lots of men with their spread (if you hit the decks correctly)

 

[RalliX]

Actually, both were used in both theaters of war(canister&grape). Just different timelines in different armies.
I think Sweden would be using canister right about now in game.

 

[Archonsod]

1.  Trying to define a precise time when dragoons weren't carrying shotguns at all puts us well into the 19th Century.

So does buck and ball. Note the blunderbuss is not comparable to a shotgun, the average 17th century example has a lethal range of a mere twelve feet or so. A large problem with all early firearms is a significant portion of the gunpowder's force isn't directly pushing the shot.

My understanding is that with smoothbores, the wadding, not the shot, is what's using the mechanical forces of the burning powder.

Wadding wasn't used till the 18th century.

A 12-gauge is quite capable of taking off limbs or a head, so even if you're wearing modern ceramics, it's almost guaranteed that you'll be knocked down and stunned.  Against the body armor of this period, shot would have been fairly effective, although the lower muzzle velocities must be taken into account; getting shot with a dragon, musketoon or carabine with a shot load would have been less effective, per-pellet, than a pistol round, but certainly not harmless.

A musket will also take off a limb, it's more down to the bullet material and shape than muzzle force. Shot of the period would not be effective against the armour, note that even slugs struggled to penetrate breastplates at anything beyond point blank range. Shot would be effectively stopped by most if not all armour, and as you note the lower muzzle velocity means it lacks the same kinetic impact of a modern weapon (particularly since the spread is much wider to boot). It's the main reason the blunderbuss was favoured by the navy; armour was less of an issue.

I have three relatives that use black powder smoothbores to hunt with, and I've never heard them complain about a lack of power

What replicas are they using? smoothbores cover three centuries of weapon development, they're not all the same. A 17th century hackbutt is as different from an 18th century Brown Bess as a modern assault rifle is from the 19th century Enfield.

Canister shot is the army version of grape shot that is used by the navy. And grape shot was used earlier than canister shot, if I'm not mistaken.

They're two different things. In terms of cannon, grape was lower calibre cannon balls which would often be loaded up to six at a time. Cannister derived it's name from the loading method, being a cannister of much lower calibre ammunition (often pistol or rifle balls) which would be shattered when fired. Generally speaking, grape was used at longer ranges or against targets where you wanted to retain the effect of a cannon ball (the navy utilised it more than cannister because it's still heavy enough to damage the physical structure of a ship) while cannister was purely anti-personnel. Grape pre-dates cannister, although cannister was little more than an extension of the practice of loading the gun with rocks, pebbles and whatever shrapnel came to hand in a last ditch bid to dissuade the enemy from charging the gun.