Multicultural armies are boring and make no sense

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Bigamo

Banned
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I know a lot of people here defend this as is and then complain that the armies lack "flavour". Truth is that vlandians recruiting battanians from former Battanian villages make ZERO sense. There is no precedent in history and makes zero sense. Breaks immersion and turns all armies in the same. There are already "auxiliaries" in the game and even in history auxiliaries didn't join their main armies in the same formation. Does anyone here really believe that the rebel Aliance recruits Storm Troopers from every single former imperial planet they conquer? In the same manner the romans used auxiliaries, but the recruits from conquered regions become LEGIONNAIRES, not what they were before. Source for different troops must be only via prisoners, or recruiting in their villages. Makes me really frustrated to notice that my supposed vlandian army have become a mess of different cultures that make ZERO sense to be forming a shield wall together.

If player recruit from villages only own culture the different culture members would be special. Right now (and in warband) it's a mess. Any recruit that a vlandian army recruit in a Sturgian Village must have Sturgian ethnicity but use the Vlandian troop tree.

From the features not intended to change this recruitment system never made any sense and really breaks the immersion when we look the mess that have become my battle line.
 

Apocal

Sergeant Knight
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Truth is that vlandians recruiting battanians from former Battanian villages make ZERO sense. There is no precedent in history and makes zero sense.
Norman marcher lords (Vlandians) were recruiting Welsh longbowmen (Battanians) for their retinues as far back as the Battle of Falkirk. And that wasn't an unusual practice. It was perfectly normal to do such things, because a lot of kingdoms were a patchwork of cultures, held together by vassalage.
 
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zieggystardust

Recruit
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I know a lot of people here defend this as is and then complain that the armies lack "flavour". Truth is that vlandians recruiting battanians from former Battanian villages make ZERO sense. There is no precedent in history and makes zero sense. Breaks immersion and turns all armies in the same. There are already "auxiliaries" in the game and even in history auxiliaries didn't join their main armies in the same formation. Does anyone here really believe that the rebel Aliance recruits Storm Troopers from every single former imperial planet they conquer? In the same manner the romans used auxiliaries, but the recruits from conquered regions become LEGIONNAIRES, not what they were before. Source for different troops must be only via prisoners, or recruiting in their villages. Makes me really frustrated to notice that my supposed vlandian army have become a mess of different cultures that make ZERO sense to be forming a shield wall together.

If player recruit from villages only own culture the different culture members would be special. Right now (and in warband) it's a mess. Any recruit that a vlandian army recruit in a Sturgian Village must have Sturgian ethnicity but use the Vlandian troop tree.

From the features not intended to change this recruitment system never made any sense and really breaks the immersion when we look the mess that have become my battle line.
I created a profile just to reply to you and tell you that you have 0 understanding of how literally anything worked historically. The Roman army literally stopped having what you might call Legionnaires as the borders settled outside of the imperial core. The moment they started recruiting outside Italy the makeup of their armies started changing immediately. To the point that literally the western empire fell apart because they had completely outsourced the military to non-Roman tribes like the Franks to manage military affairs in different parts of the empire until those lords looked around and realized that there was no army around to keep them in line anymore because they were the Roman army.

Star Wars isn't real and shouldn't impact your thoughts on how anything in reality works.

It only breaks your immersion because you insist on pushing your brain dead understanding of history onto a pseudo-historical action RPG.

Read a book
 

Askorti

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WB
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Truth is that vlandians recruiting battanians from former Battanian villages make ZERO sense. There is no precedent in history and makes zero sense.
Have ever even seen a cover of a history book, in a bookstore, across the street? Because what you say is so contrary to history I don't even know how to start...
Back in the day there was pretty much no such thing as nationality, only ethnic and cultural differences, but those in no way stood in the way of recruiting levies. Sure, the population of a different culture could be more reluctant to obey, but in the end, unless they could revolt, they would join whatever lord currently rules their area to war because that's their obligation. And if they don't fulfill that obligation, bad stuff happens.
A regular peasant wouldnt even know what "country" they fight in, they probably wouldnt necessarily even know who their lord is at present. All they needed to know is that a recruiter visited their village and its time to grab a spear and shield and go. (or pay some money to avoid going, if they can)

Also, there's the fact that it was a very common practice to recruit troops from particular regions and ethnicity for their specialties, like Balearic slingers and Cretan archers in the ancient times, and genoese crossbowmen in the middle ages. I mean, the Varangian Guard of the Byzantine emperors was composed solely of Norse, and later Norman warriors.
 

AnandaShanti

Knight at Arms
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I created a profile just to reply to you and tell you
When I read this I just know it's going to be good! :smile:

What I would like is for maybe 1 notable to change or be added when a fief gets taken and held for say a season or 2. SO it's an imperial fief, but 1 khuzait dude has moved in a set up shop.

I'd also like quests/option to do this if I own a fief too, bring in a foreigner to get a different troop type. I'd also like to make an outlaw notable for bandit recruits or a STRONG WOMAN notable for sword sister (when they get finished).

Pie in the sky!
 

HalfMetalJacket

Sergeant
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What I would like is for maybe 1 notable to change or be added when a fief gets taken and held for say a season or 2. SO it's an imperial fief, but 1 khuzait dude has moved in a set up shop.

I'd also like quests/option to do this if I own a fief too, bring in a foreigner to get a different troop type. I'd also like to make an outlaw notable for bandit recruits or a STRONG WOMAN notable for sword sister (when they get finished).

Pie in the sky!
Absolutely this. It would be fun to have quests where you gotta help an unwelcome migrant settle down into new lands. Maybe the choices could be something like make them assimilate with the culture and avoid pissing local notables off, or helping them retain their culture and potentially piss off the locals.

Forget about turning a Battanian city into an Imperial one, this idea is a lot more fun and actually does something with the notables system.
 

Bigamo

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The idiocracy attacks together in band as always is when someone points that this system makes no sense. I will just search for a mod.

The ONLY army were it kind of would make sense are the Khuzaits as they were modeled after the mongols and the mongols really did that mess. Usually they basically made their conquered regions into vassals. The turks had already know better.

The worse part is the lack of arguments and personal attacks. Way to go.

Some really "smart" person made an account to post giving celt example from a period of time where the Celts are no more. And another give auxiliary armies as example as they were already touched by the original post.

Other (or the same) said the franks have become the roman army, what as usual is stupid as they lived OUTSIDE of roman borders and contracted as mercenaries, and bribed to don't attack roman territory. Had they been inside roman frontiers they would be recruited as legionaries, as happened in every single place, Armenian Legions put more than one emperor into power, and they were LEGIONNAIRES with some additional mounted archers (as the empire does in Bannerlord, their mounted archers are an adaptation to the Khuzaits ways of fighting. And it is show in game by their mounted archers.

And this all is specially true with the troop evolution system put into the game. You really think a Vlandian Sargent would sit with a Khuzaits tribesman and tell him how to use the bow while mounted?🤦‍♂️

Now excuse me, I need to go to creative assembly forums say that they have been doing it all wrong all along and when rome conquers Celt territory they should recruit from the celt rooster, not from the roman one. Oh, and I must correct all the history books and say that when crusader armies replenished its troops in Antioch all they got access to was the Turk rooster.
 

Bigamo

Banned
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What could be SUPER cool and not that hard to implement is having troops recruited in conquered regions having some mixed armor. This DID happen in real history all the time. And would make sense, be cool and I believe it would not be that hard to code.

But it good to know that after the Turks conquered Constantinople they used the bizantine rooster. History books need to be corrected.
 

dannazgu

Veteran
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@Bigamo

I want the same as you, turn conquered and annexed lands into my main culture, but historically:
  • When the Romans conquered and annexed a land: yes, the process of romanization was in place, soldiers got lands to form Colonias, but took at least 2 generations (50 years) to see some progress on Romanization.
  • Auxiliares were non roman citiziens, even Barbarians.. But all of them who served in the Legions for 20 years got their Citizenship, only made them Roman in paper and law.
  • Colonias sometimes when made from stratch were Roman, yes.. But when annexing a town (oppidium) took some years, decades to see their ppl turn into lil Romans but even them cultural resistance was in place, maybe like @AnandaShanti said, if we could migrate notable and replace 1 or two would be great, we could get auxiliares and our culture (main)
  • Middle ages: yes, there was no Nation like was said... If you said otherwise Italy would be no man's land then.. Look at their culture: Roman, Byzantines (Greeks), French, Germans.. All mixed up.Many lords would get their levies but weren't averse to recruit auxiliares like you said.
  • The Turks used many and different culture in their armies, their Elite troops the Janissaries weren't turkish, instead they were ppl from lands conquered that turned into turkish and coverted to their religion and culture... Watch the TV show documentary: Ottoman Empire
 

Julio-Claudian

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There are actually countless historical examples. But yes, a Battanian shouldn't be able to recruit Imperials and upgrade them into Legionary soldiers. It would make much more sense for the foreign recruits to be upgraded into a 'mixed' version of the troop, with a lot of the skills of the native troops but with more of the 'flavour' of the faction they're recruited into, in the same way that you can upgrade some bandit units into soldiers.
 

jak1up

Regular
WBWF&S
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I would like to see it more like warband, that if you are attacking a faction and you have troops of that faction they would have a morale debuff.
 

Bigamo

Banned
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@Bigamo

I want the same as you, turn conquered and annexed lands into my main culture, but historically:
  • When the Romans conquered and annexed a land: yes, the process of romanization was in place, soldiers got lands to form Colonias, but took at least 2 generations (50 years) to see some progress on Romanization.
  • Auxiliares were non roman citiziens, even Barbarians.. But all of them who served in the Legions for 20 years got their Citizenship, only made them Roman in paper and law.
  • Colonias sometimes when made from stratch were Roman, yes.. But when annexing a town (oppidium) took some years, decades to see their ppl turn into lil Romans but even them cultural resistance was in place, maybe like @AnandaShanti said, if we could migrate notable and replace 1 or two would be great, we could get auxiliares and our culture (main)
  • Middle ages: yes, there was no Nation like was said... If you said otherwise Italy would be no man's land then.. Look at their culture: Roman, Byzantines (Greeks), French, Germans.. All mixed up.Many lords would get their levies but weren't averse to recruit auxiliares like you said.
  • The Turks used many and different culture in their armies, their Elite troops the Janissaries weren't turkish, instead they were ppl from lands conquered that turned into turkish and coverted to their religion and culture... Watch the TV show documentary: Ottoman Empire

Nice post, really. But don't want to actually change the culture of the place, I agree that it is too short of a term. But the troops recruited from those places will receive vlandian training in Vlandian armies they will not become vladians, but they must fight like Vlandians do.
 

dannazgu

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Nice post, really. But don't want to actually change the culture of the place, I agree that it is too short of a term. But the troops recruited from those places will receive vlandian training in Vlandian armies they will not become vladians, but they must fight like Vlandians do.
Yes, a Battanian recruited and annexed by Vlandia will have to fight like Vlandians, here's why:
  • When a land get conquered the recruiters and trainers will be the suzerains cultures, they'll turn you or break you in the way they want it, so in real oyu turn yourself into a Vlandian or you'll be dead or kicked out of the army (talking if it ws real)
  • Most cultures did this, wasn't uncommon... The only problem is if you do this, again IRL, the same thing would have happened to the WRE (Western Roman Empire).. The barbarians were the core of their army and knew how fight like them that made them dangerous.
  • In game well, yes, they're lil vlandians now and will fight like some... Truly the game has no mechanics for this... yet, maybe
 

Apocal

Sergeant Knight
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But it good to know that after the Turks conquered Constantinople they used the bizantine rooster. History books need to be corrected.
Well, not Constantinople, but after the Turks took Anatolia, they made particularly heavy use of Anatolian Christians as light cavalry known as "musellems." Byzantine armies also made particular use of their local border nomads at times, complete with muster and pay.

Now excuse me, I need to go to creative assembly forums say that they have been doing it all wrong all along and when rome conquers Celt territory they should recruit from the celt rooster, not from the roman one. Oh, and I must correct all the history books and say that when crusader armies replenished its troops in Antioch all they got access to was the Turk rooster.
The Total War series is guilty of a number of ahistorical things for the sake of gameplay. If you're basing your knowledge off that franchise, you're going to believe some zany stuff.

Generally, if you were just sticking with "I don't like mixed armies because they are boring" that would have been fine. But you can't say they are ahistorical because loads of medieval armies were made up of a patchwork of different cultures.
 
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Bigamo

Banned
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Well, not Constantinople, but after the Turks took Anatolia, they made particularly heavy use of Anatolian Christians as light cavalry known as "musellems." Byzantine armies also made particular use of their local border nomads at times, complete with muster and pay.



The Total War series is guilty of a number of ahistorical things for the sake of gameplay. If you're basing your knowledge off that franchise, you're going to believe some zany stuff.

Generally, if you were just sticking with "I don't like mixed armies because they are boring" that would have been fine. But you can't say they are ahistorical because loads of medieval armies were made up of a patchwork of different cultures.
Actually I base my opinions in a mastery degree in medieval history LOL. I know this have not to be mentioned here, but I could not hold myself this time. LOL

And in the example you give the game already uses it in the form of the mounted archer of the empire. They were first employed by the bizantines as auxiliaries and overtime have been incorporated to the army, then began to use proper armor in Bizantine style and have it's battle tactics incorporated to the army doctrines. This do happen all the time, less so in medieval history. As we know most people in game should not even to be able to speak the same language.

It's even said that the xiites wanted to help the christians to take Jerusalem from the Sunis, and it just don't happened for lack of capacity to communicate in a common language.
 

redmark

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Now excuse me, I need to go to creative assembly forums say that they have been doing it all wrong all along and when rome conquers Celt territory they should recruit from the celt rooster, not from the roman one. Oh, and I must correct all the history books and say that when crusader armies replenished its troops in Antioch all they got access to was the Turk rooster.
Well, if you're going to base arguments on Creative Assembly, of all people, you might like to look at the various realism mods that were made - most of which specifically implemented non-legionary auxiliary/local unit types for Roman recruitment, or very slow assimilation programmes (via building upgrades) before allowing 'cultural' shifts that enabled the recruitment of Roman units (and even then, from a limited pool).
 

redmark

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The Total War series is guilty of a number of ahistorical things for the sake of gameplay. If you're basing your knowledge off that franchise, you're going to believe some zany stuff.
Those dogs were pretty fun to use, though :wink:.
 

Lord Irontoe

Master Knight
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What could be SUPER cool and not that hard to implement is having troops recruited in conquered regions having some mixed armor. This DID happen in real history all the time. And would make sense, be cool and I believe it would not be that hard to code.

But it good to know that after the Turks conquered Constantinople they used the bizantine rooster. History books need to be corrected.
That would be very cool, but I think it probably would be pretty hard to implement. I think it would require separate troop trees for each mixed troop. You'd have to have, for example, Native Vlandians, Battanian-Vlandians, Sturgian-Vlandians, Khuzait-Vlandians etc., and do that for each faction, so it would square the amount of troop trees and probably be a real pain to manage.

Another way would be to code some kind of conditional gear system, so that you still have just the 6 main troop trees but their gear pools include some gear from all factions, so depending on the original culture of the village they're recruited from, they would use some of that culture's gear mixed in with their regular stuff. But that seems like it would be a complicated solution to code.
 

redmark

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On a serious note, what I would like to see (to address this issue and a couple of others) is that the members of a given clan (and only those members) should be able to recruit some noble and mid-high tier units of their own culture, from castles (only) owned by that clan regardless of where that castle is, or which culture it originally belonged to. Castles represent military installations, not towns, and would have been populated almost entirely by occupying forces and their entourages.