Mount & Blade II: Bannerlord Old Discussion Thread

[Meevar the Mighty]

The period did experience a massive population boom though.

The population was growing at the time, but the populations of Ethiopia and Eritrea are growing today. It's not an indication that the population isn't facing serious hardship and malnutrition, which was the certainly the case during this early medieval period of population growth.

It is though, historian Michael Prestwich in his book Edward I states that even in the hostile environment in Wales, the average castle garrison a lord commanded was;

"In 1284 30 or 40 men to each was regarded as appropriate. In the rebellion of 1294-5 Harlech had twenty men, of whom two died during the siege, until reinforcements came from Ireland."

Other castles in less hostile areas had even less men, as few as 4-5.

You are utterly ignorant of the fact that the vast majority of the lords own armed men were not castle dweling rich pricks but freemen selected from those same villages you presume they oppressed.

Thus, if a lord wanted to go into a village to do some dirty business, he would have mighty issues doing so.

I'm not ignorant of that fact. I was not disputing that most of the troops available to a lord were levied from their estate (not necessarily as freemen - peasant designations are a bit complicated, especially if you're talking about Europe as a whole), but the idea that these levies or their families would be remotely confident in any ability to overwhelm the few rich, well equipped and well trained retainers. It's a moot point though, since, a I said, even if they were somehow successful, someone else would come in to punish them.

Alright, find me all those primary sources describing those evil lords going about their average day raping people and pillaging their own property.

I will wait.

Keep tilting at straw men, but don't hold your breath.

The point is it rarely happened anywhere and had decades of time between them.

I'm not sure how that advances your argument rather than mine. It rarely happened because it almost inevitably failed. It happened sometimes because, even knowing how unlikely it was to advance their interests and how terrible the consequences of failure would be, the complainants were sometimes so desperate that they'd throw in their lot with a suicidal cause.

 

[Mamlaz]

The population was growing at the time, but the populations of Ethiopia and Eritrea are growing today. It's not an indication that the population isn't facing serious hardship and malnutrition, which was the certainly the case during this early medieval period of population growth.

They have modern medicine and technology lol.

Starving and overly oppressed people did not experience population booms before the industrial revolution.

They also definitely did not dance, party and drink every Sunday and had more days off than modern workers have in the West.

but the idea that these levies or their families would be remotely confident in any ability to overwhelm the few rich, well equipped and well trained retainers. It's a moot point though, since, a I said, even if they were somehow successful, someone else would come in to punish them.

My argument is that they would not have to at all(in most cases).

Even so, protecting your loved ones seems kinda a primary concern next to a possible negative outcome of resisting.

Keep tilting at straw men, but don't hold your breath.

Demanding any evidence is now strawmaning?

I'm not sure how that advances your argument rather than mine. It rarely happened because it almost inevitably failed. It happened sometimes because, even knowing how unlikely it was to advance their interests and how terrible the consequences of failure would be, the complainants were sometimes so desperate that they'd throw in their lot with a suicidal cause.

Or, perhaps it rarely happened because peasants did not see it as a proper course of action?

Perhaps, and just perhaps, they weren't at all so oppressed as you claim they were and were thus, quite content with the rich pricks in the castles as long as they murdered all the rapey brigands around their villages.

 

[Reiksmarshal]

Hope all is well and the Dev team is safe.

 

[Meevar the Mighty]

They have modern medicine and technology lol.

Starving and overly oppressed people did not experience population booms before the industrial revolution.

They also definitely did not dance, party and drink every Sunday and had more days off than modern workers have in the West.

Nice seamless transition into what I assume is supposed to be sarcasm, is English not your first language or something?

Peasants were "employed" to pay taxes. Generally, they would spend a lot of their free time working for their own upkeep, which wasn't covered by the work that they were officially required to do, so to say that they had so many "days off" is pretty misleading. They had to work much harder than modern workers in "the West" to survive. The fact that they weren't allowed to work on the Sabbath isn't really a mitigating factor.

My argument is that they would not have to at all(in most cases).

Even so, protecting your loved ones seems kinda a primary concern next to a possible negative outcome of resisting.

Of course they didn't have to; they had to not even think about it.

The negative outcome in question, which was all but assured, was that you would be dead and your family even more destitute, with nobody to provide for them. Pursuing that outcome is probably not the best way of protecting your loved ones.

Demanding any evidence is now strawmaning?

If that's the criteria you question when you're accused of straw-manning, it's little wonder that you're guilty.

 

[SenorZorros]

might I Point out that even the most well-trained knight can't really do a lot against a hail of arrows while walking around unarmoured and unprepared.

 

[tansvanio]

I hope bannerlord comes real soon.

 

[Mamlaz]

Peasants were "employed" to pay taxes. Generally, they would spend a lot of their free time working for their own upkeep, which wasn't covered by the work that they were officially required to do, so to say that they had so many "days off" is pretty misleading. They had to work much harder than modern workers in "the West" to survive. The fact that they weren't allowed to work on the Sabbath isn't really a mitigating factor.

You are so tedious;

13th century - Adult male peasant, U.K.: 1620 hours

Calculated from Gregory Clark's estimate ("Impatience, Poverty, and Open Field Agriculture", mimeo, 1986)

14th century - Casual laborer, U.K.: 1440 hours

Calculated from Nora Ritchie's estimate ("Labour conditions in Essex in the reign of Richard II", in E.M. Carus-Wilson, ed., Essays in Economic History, vol. II, London: Edward Arnold, 1962).

Middle ages - English worker: 2309 hours

Juliet Schor's estime of average medieval laborer working two-thirds of the year at 9.5 hours per day

1400-1600 - Farmer-miner, adult male, U.K.: 1980 hours

Calculated from Ian Blanchard's estimate ("Labour productivity and work psychology in the English mining industry, 1400-1600", Economic History Review 31, 23 (197.

Compared to;

1840 - Average worker, U.K.: 3105-3588 hours

Based on 69-hour week; hours from W.S. Woytinsky, "Hours of labor," in Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences, vol. III (New York: Macmillan, 1935). Low estimate assumes 45 week year, high one assumes 52 week year

1850 - Average worker, U.S.: 3150-3650 hours

Based on 70-hour week; hours from Joseph Zeisel, "The workweek in American industry, 1850-1956", Monthly Labor Review 81, 23-29 (195. Low estimate assumes 45 week year, high one assumes 52 week year

Of course they didn't have to; they had to not even think about it.

Yes, because the Medieval world was not Mad Max Fury Road.

If that's the criteria you question when you're accused of straw-manning, it's little wonder that you're guilty.

If that is your answer to a demand of actual proof or sources on basically anything you stated so far, it's a little wonder that you are not abandoning this baseless tirade of claims about medieval life.

 

[Hidde112]

http://history-world.org/peasant.htm

"The peasants' lot was hard, but most historians consider it little worse than that of peasants today. Because of the many holidays, or holy days, in the Middle Ages, peasants actually labored only about 260 days a year. They spent their holidays in church festivals, watching wandering troups of jongleurs, journeying to mystery or miracle plays, or engaging in wrestling, bowling, cockfights, apple bobs, or dancing."

EDIT: I don't know if this is a trustworthy source

 

[Yabloko]

This discussion is quite pointless unless you choose a region and a time period to talk about.

In some places the church and the king were more than happy to curb the nobility's power by upholding the peasant's rights, leading to a relatively acceptable standard of living.
In some other places the nobility was much more powerful and had no qualms when imposing strong taxes on the peasants, even if it meant starvation in times of famine.

And about christian lords raiding christian peasants, the same logic can be applied.

 

[Sasquatch_Punter]

JESUS CHRIST I WILL NOT ALLOW A TEAM OF ISLAMIST F*CKHEAD MONKEY****S TO RUIN MY DREAM AND PROBABLY MASSACRE PEOPLE.
What we need to do is what America did to the Japanese. They deserved it and so does ISIS and all other similar groups. JUST NUKE THE MIDDLE EAST.

Considering many of these groups are based out of rural areas, what would we nuke? Mountains? Caves? Farmhouses?

I cringe hard enough to get whiplash when I hear people put "nuke" and "ISIS" in the same sentence.

 

[creuzet]

Can we all just keep discussions about deploying nukes and medieval peasants on the Sage's or Anachronist's Guild?

 

[Meevar the Mighty]

snip

I find it difficult to believe that you're unaware that your arguments are all pitched against straw men, but the alternative is that you really can't read. Either way, it seems pretty pointless to try to enlighten you further.

If that is your answer to a demand of actual proof or sources on basically anything you stated so far, it's a little wonder that you are not abandoning this baseless tirade of claims about medieval life.

Ok, just looking at that one example, try to find where I state that

those evil lords going about their average day raping people and pillaging their own property

and you might come a little closer to understanding why it might look like you're just unscrupulously and pathetically inventing straw men, in absence of any genuine argument. Then you can apply the same tactic to most of the things that you've said over the course of the conversation, if you can call it a conversation when you seem to uncomfortable diverging from your monologue.

 

[Mamlaz]

Either way, it seems pretty pointless to try to enlighten you further.

Spoiler

 

[Vraelomon]

Can you guys like, be a little nicer?

 

[Satanica]

Can you guys like, wake up? Really that's my opinion and I don't really give a sh*t on other's opinions about MY opinion. 

 

[berkyx]

Guys don't wait for Bannerlord bloody days for Turkey coming... that coup was not fake neither meant to put down goverment NATO side commander's from low to high rank from air, marine and gendarmerie forces were checking how hot the water can be with that coup.. to see who choose side with who and who are their enemies to deal with anyway you think can a jet bomb the city without refueling for 9 hours ???? why do you think guys erdogan's first thing was the close incirlik airbase ? thats becouse nato's own assets (not turkey's) used for refueling on air why the hell erdogan didn't use his 20k troops to suppress couple dozen coup soldiers ? they were just outside the city thats because he coudn't he have to move troops from hundreds km away anyway right now Turkey's forces divided by three "nato side soldiers", "eurasian soldiers", and his newly created and used for syria "sadat forces" anyway right now Turkey's couple frigates, dozens f16's and again dozens blackhawks from nato side soldiers are in Greece those thousands ranked commanders arrested recently means nothing all key rank officers are in Greece right now you guys think couple dozen private soldiers can take hostige general staff of the republic of turkey aswell as other land, air, sea's general staffs all bull**** all of these guys are coup plotters and bloody days will come for innocents, islamists, leftiest, kurds and all people from Turkey but thats our sin to be so ignorant and choose that guys to lead us over and over again. he coudn't see that will come he thought coups will be blocked if he jailed some of our generals lol our Turkey's history all about military coups lol guys think like a northern korea but a nato member one thats how's gonna work if i were Taleworlds i immediately released my game with the lastest build xd and those f 16's that bombing İstanbul and ankara still not found with their pilots lolol

 

[Dest45]

Guys don't wait for Bannerlord bloody days for Turkey coming... that coup was not fake neither meant to put down goverment NATO side commander's from low to high rank from air, marine and gendarmerie forces were checking how hot the water can be with that coup.. to see who choose side with who and who are their enemies to deal with anyway you think can a jet bomb the city without refueling for 9 hours ???? why do you think guys erdogan's first thing was the close incirlik airbase ? thats becouse nato's own assets (not turkey's) used for refueling on air why the hell erdogan didn't use his 20k troops to suppress couple dozen coup soldiers ? they were just outside the city thats because he coudn't he have to move troops from hundreds km away anyway right now Turkey's forces divided by three "nato side soldiers", "eurasian soldiers", and his newly created and used for syria "sadat forces" anyway right now Turkey's couple frigates, dozens f16's and again dozens blackhawks from nato side soldiers are in Greece those thousands ranked commanders arrested recently means nothing all key rank officers are in Greece right now you guys think couple dozen private soldiers can take hostige general staff of the republic of turkey aswell as other land, air, sea's general staffs all bull**** all of these guys are coup plotters and bloody days will come for innocents, islamists, leftiest, kurds and all people from Turkey but thats our sin to be so ignorant and choose that guys to lead us over and over again. he coudn't see that will come he thought coups will be blocked if he jailed some of our generals lol our Turkey's history all about military coups lol guys think like a northern korea but a nato member one thats how's gonna work if i were Taleworlds i immediately released my game with the lastest build xd and those f 16's that bombing İstanbul and ankara still not found with their pilots lolol

So.... when is bannerlord going to release?

 

[berkyx]

Guys don't wait for Bannerlord bloody days for Turkey coming... that coup was not fake neither meant to put down goverment NATO side commander's from low to high rank from air, marine and gendarmerie forces were checking how hot the water can be with that coup.. to see who choose side with who and who are their enemies to deal with anyway you think can a jet bomb the city without refueling for 9 hours ???? why do you think guys erdogan's first thing was the close incirlik airbase ? thats becouse nato's own assets (not turkey's) used for refueling on air why the hell erdogan didn't use his 20k troops to suppress couple dozen coup soldiers ? they were just outside the city thats because he coudn't he have to move troops from hundreds km away anyway right now Turkey's forces divided by three "nato side soldiers", "eurasian soldiers", and his newly created and used for syria "sadat forces" anyway right now Turkey's couple frigates, dozens f16's and again dozens blackhawks from nato side soldiers are in Greece those thousands ranked commanders arrested recently means nothing all key rank officers are in Greece right now you guys think couple dozen private soldiers can take hostige general staff of the republic of turkey aswell as other land, air, sea's general staffs all bull**** all of these guys are coup plotters and bloody days will come for innocents, islamists, leftiest, kurds and all people from Turkey but thats our sin to be so ignorant and choose that guys to lead us over and over again. he coudn't see that will come he thought coups will be blocked if he jailed some of our generals lol our Turkey's history all about military coups lol guys think like a northern korea but a nato member one thats how's gonna work if i were Taleworlds i immediately released my game with the lastest build xd and those f 16's that bombing İstanbul and ankara still not found with their pilots lolol

So.... when is bannerlord going to release?

Prob you never see the full build

 

[MrMundy]

Guys don't wait for Bannerlord bloody days for Turkey coming... that coup was not fake neither meant to put down goverment NATO side commander's from low to high rank from air, marine and gendarmerie forces were checking how hot the water can be with that coup.. to see who choose side with who and who are their enemies to deal with anyway you think can a jet bomb the city without refueling for 9 hours ???? why do you think guys erdogan's first thing was the close incirlik airbase ? thats becouse nato's own assets (not turkey's) used for refueling on air why the hell erdogan didn't use his 20k troops to suppress couple dozen coup soldiers ? they were just outside the city thats because he coudn't he have to move troops from hundreds km away anyway right now Turkey's forces divided by three "nato side soldiers", "eurasian soldiers", and his newly created and used for syria "sadat forces" anyway right now Turkey's couple frigates, dozens f16's and again dozens blackhawks from nato side soldiers are in Greece those thousands ranked commanders arrested recently means nothing all key rank officers are in Greece right now you guys think couple dozen private soldiers can take hostige general staff of the republic of turkey aswell as other land, air, sea's general staffs all bull**** all of these guys are coup plotters and bloody days will come for innocents, islamists, leftiest, kurds and all people from Turkey but thats our sin to be so ignorant and choose that guys to lead us over and over again. he coudn't see that will come he thought coups will be blocked if he jailed some of our generals lol our Turkey's history all about military coups lol guys think like a northern korea but a nato member one thats how's gonna work if i were Taleworlds i immediately released my game with the lastest build xd and those f 16's that bombing İstanbul and ankara still not found with their pilots lolol

How likely is it that Turkey will now start gowing into a full lockdown? 0.1%?
How is this ment to influence Developer Studios which dont even have anything related to nowerdays turkey?

 

[Alene]

Let's keep the discussion of the coup on it's own thread, thank you.

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,353208.msg8486001.html#msg8486001
^topic for the coup