B Musket Era More realistic muskets.

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Willhelm

Knight at Arms
I made this small modification a long time ago and just kind of forgot to post it.

It basically changes all the muskets and pistols in game to be much slower to reload and much less accurate. About the same speed as the Napoleonic wars DLC, but obviously as there are a lot of different gun variation in WFAS, so they aren't all the same, with more expensive guns being more accurate and quicker to reload, i tried to keep the same scale as the native game but just scaled down.

I also increased the damage of all guns, by default they do fairly low damage which was probably to balance their accurate and speed.

Don't be alarmed if they seem too slow and inaccurate at first, increasing your firearm proficiency makes your accuracy increase, and the cheap guns you will get at first are very slow.

Here is the file
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?5yetntcv755dccd
Just copy it into your Ogniem i Mieczem module folder, remember to back up the original Item_kinds1.
 

Csatádi

Grandmaster Knight
I also reduced accuracy and speed of firearms but not so radically. Accuracy of 70 in vanilla became 25 in your file while I use 60 in my system. Speed of 60 became 22 in your file while I use 49.
Killing in vanilla with dutch pistol from about 50 meter really spoiled the mood, I agree.

Raising firearm damage would mean more sudden deaths for the player even wearing the best armor. Maybe these stats are good for multiplayer where you respawn quickly but not in the campaing where you can lose many things when you are shot. In reality quality armors were pistolproof anyway so I actually reduced the damage by 2 points because this ability cannot be reflected in the game.
Cossacks would be useless with slow firearms. They are weak already because of the lack of armors.
 

Willhelm

Knight at Arms
Csatádi said:
I also reduced accuracy and speed of firearms but not so radically. Accuracy of 70 in vanilla became 25 in your file while I use 60 in my system. Speed of 60 became 22 in your file while I use 49.
Killing in vanilla with dutch pistol from about 50 meter really spoiled the mood, I agree.

Raising firearm damage would mean more sudden deaths for the player even wearing the best armor. Maybe these stats are good for multiplayer where you respawn quickly but not in the campaing where you can lose many things when you are shot. In reality quality armors were pistolproof anyway so I actually reduced the damage by 2 points because this ability cannot be reflected in the game.
Cossacks would be useless with slow firearms. They are weak already because of the lack of armors.

I think for realism it should be slower and less accurate than that still. As for armour proofing, it would be more effective to lower the velocity (shoot speed) of the bullets rather than damage. Or in Module.ini text file you can edit how much bullets pierce armour and such.
 

RaccoonTOF

Recruit
M&BWBWF&SNW
Not sure why you think that they should be THAT slow to reload.  A moderately trained musketeer (line forces, not militia) with a standard wheellock musket can fire trigger pull to trigger pull roughly every 20 seconds.  About 15 seconds of that is the actual reloading and readying, the other 5 seconds generally being rough aiming and actual firing.  Note that this is with loose powder, wadding, and balls, as this era did not have cartridge-style ammunition.  So for a "realistic" musket, the numbers should be tuned so that a standard musketeer (say about 80 FA skill) firing a standard wheellock musket should be able to reload in 15 seconds, and then base the rest around that.  Note that a highly skilled user can reload and fire a miquelet lock musket in 7-9 seconds, so this should be the "peak" rate.  Also note that matchlock muskets were MUCH slower, often to where users could only get off one shot every 40-60 seconds.  Perhaps this is where you are getting the impression that the muskets should be dramatically slower to reload, but the vast majority of the muskets used in the game are not matchlocks...

Accuracy is an entirely different story though - due to the non-rifled barrels, non-stabilized ball shot, and the very loose fit in the barrels, even the best-aimed shots were still highly inaccurate just due to the weapons themselves.  This is especially true of the pistols and carbines, which while slightly faster to reload, were dramatically more inaccurate.  This was the reason why volley fire was the primary tactic used by musketeers.  However, with the notable exception of the Swedes, this was not widely used until about 50 years after the time period set here (and since the tactics are hard to associate with the different factions independently, if not impossible, this can largely be handled with a roughly doubling of the FA skill for Swedish line troops - again not militia - in comparison to the other factions.)
 
25 is far too low for a Musket, mostly because of the way this game works. I highly doubt that a competent musketeer (let´s say 200 FA points in the game) could miss an aimed shot at an enemy 5 meters away with a Miquelet Musket. That´s exactly what happened to me quite a few times after testing such accuracy levels.
 

Willhelm

Knight at Arms
RaccoonTOF said:
Not sure why you think that they should be THAT slow to reload.  A moderately trained musketeer (line forces, not militia) with a standard wheellock musket can fire trigger pull to trigger pull roughly every 20 seconds.  About 15 seconds of that is the actual reloading and readying, the other 5 seconds generally being rough aiming and actual firing.  Note that this is with loose powder, wadding, and balls, as this era did not have cartridge-style ammunition.  So for a "realistic" musket, the numbers should be tuned so that a standard musketeer (say about 80 FA skill) firing a standard wheellock musket should be able to reload in 15 seconds, and then base the rest around that.  Note that a highly skilled user can reload and fire a miquelet lock musket in 7-9 seconds, so this should be the "peak" rate.  Also note that matchlock muskets were MUCH slower, often to where users could only get off one shot every 40-60 seconds.  Perhaps this is where you are getting the impression that the muskets should be dramatically slower to reload, but the vast majority of the muskets used in the game are not matchlocks...

Accuracy is an entirely different story though - due to the non-rifled barrels, non-stabilized ball shot, and the very loose fit in the barrels, even the best-aimed shots were still highly inaccurate just due to the weapons themselves.  This is especially true of the pistols and carbines, which while slightly faster to reload, were dramatically more inaccurate.  This was the reason why volley fire was the primary tactic used by musketeers.  However, with the notable exception of the Swedes, this was not widely used until about 50 years after the time period set here (and since the tactics are hard to associate with the different factions independently, if not impossible, this can largely be handled with a roughly doubling of the FA skill for Swedish line troops - again not militia - in comparison to the other factions.)

I'm struggling to understand your criticism because you said they should take 15-20 seconds, which is what they do in this mod, some even less, I have timed them, unfortunately higher firearm skill doesn't increase reloading speed, but as you've stated, better quality muskets do reload faster. I don't believe any should reload in 7-9 seconds though. In this mod the best quality take about 12 seconds, the worst around 18, the handmade matchlock i think. Carbines and pistols are all faster but less accurate.

I made them quite inaccurate, as much as to not completely ruin game play, to be honest I'm not quite sure if you're criticising it or just telling me  :smile:

Articulo34 said:
25 is far too low for a Musket, mostly because of the way this game works. I highly doubt that a competent musketeer (let´s say 200 FA points in the game) could miss an aimed shot at an enemy 5 meters away with a Miquelet Musket. That´s exactly what happened to me quite a few times after testing such accuracy levels.

If the reticule is completely within their body it shouldn't miss.

Anyway all the stats are completely changeable in the text file, these are just what i've played with for about 50 hours, with lots of adjusting.
 

RaccoonTOF

Recruit
M&BWBWF&SNW
Hmm...what combat speed did you test with?  When I was playing around with values, a speed of mid 40s gave me a roughly 15 second reload time (holding down fire, from trigger pull to weapon up and aimed again).  Any value in the 20s would be significantly slower than that.  I also reached a roughly 8 second reload (timed same as above) with speed values in the high 70s - mid 80s.  This gave me speeds as follows: matchlock muskets I was using a value of 20, matchlock carbine 25, wheellock muskets 40, wheellock carbine 50, pistol 55, miquelet musket 65, miquelet carbine 75.  This seemed to give a reasonable rate of fire comparable to the "realistic" values in my original post (I didn't get around to editing any of the rare/hand-crafted stuff).  The "handmade" firearms I gave the same speeds as the matchlocks, but less accuracy.  All of the firearms I dropped the accuracy to about 50% of the vanilla values.  Also, I had thought that firearms skill reduced reload time, so I set all of my speed values slightly low based on testing with 120 FA (and I was aiming to target about an 80 FA for the "base" numbers) so these could be slightly off as well.
 

Willhelm

Knight at Arms
Hmm on medium combat speed. FA skill doesn't change the reload speed no, just the accuracy.
I don't know if it is different for you, for me 20 is around 14 seconds. For example in NW wars which uses the same animation and settings the speed is set at 23 which is 12 seconds. I aimed to get slightly slower than this for most guns.

 
Csatádi said:
I also reduced accuracy and speed of firearms but not so radically. Accuracy of 70 in vanilla became 25 in your file while I use 60 in my system. Speed of 60 became 22 in your file while I use 49.
Killing in vanilla with dutch pistol from about 50 meter really spoiled the mood, I agree.

Raising firearm damage would mean more sudden deaths for the player even wearing the best armor. Maybe these stats are good for multiplayer where you respawn quickly but not in the campaing where you can lose many things when you are shot. In reality quality armors were pistolproof anyway so I actually reduced the damage by 2 points because this ability cannot be reflected in the game.
Cossacks would be useless with slow firearms. They are weak already because of the lack of armors.
thats why i think they should have very high firearm skills
 

Malefactor

Recruit
This is great! I've downloaded you file and looked through the acc, spd and dam values. I don't play vanilla, so I changed the variables in wfas: enhanced mod. I lowered acc and spd of all firearms ans enhanced the damage, much like in your mod.

It's new exp, new tactics, whole new world to play. Tight formations, advance, volley, advance, volley... I like it!

Finally I has a feeling, that i command irl musketeer company. Try it.
 

Chaosegg

Sergeant
This is exactly what is wrong with native multiplayer!
Some players seem to consistently be firing laser balls at you even when sidestepping at full speed at long range!
it's insanely cheezey and feels like cheating, especially considering the time period this is supposed to be.

Thanks, I hope there are some multiplayer servers running this or something like it too!
 
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