More alternatives for cavalry

[The Harmonizer]

At first I was going to chock it up to my own inexperience, and I do not mean to be one of those baying 'balance this, balance that' types, but I'm starting to feel like something has to be done with the lance. It's basically the "Sword-of-war and war-bow" of singleplayer (Used for easy access and by a vast many players), a majority of cavalrymen is using it almost exclusively because it is typically a one hit kill guarantee especially against infantry. Now cavalry have that natural disadvantage of pikes, and obviously lances played a critical part of just about every cavalry corps, and saw a continued use up until just about the end of cavalry's livelihood, yet from a historical perspective if lances were truly this deadly they would have carried a number of them or relied on them wholesale.

I don't feel like a simple nerf would be effective or desired and isn't what I'd like to suggest, but right now lances seem to be the only worthwhile opportunity on horseback. Thrown weapons get a major inaccuracy penalty compared to singleplayer, and the swing of a sword at least to me feels completely different from what it was in singleplayer M&B.

Back then if you lined up a charge past an infantryman and swung, you hit them. Nowadays I find myself passing by soldier after soldier and swinging but hitting air. Perhaps reporting damage would allow me to tell if I was just doing side-glances or not, but the fact that an overwhelming majority of cavalry kills are by lance and pretty much every cavalrymen I see is wielding one, I doubt that is the case. In fact there's no reason to even use the sword in a side-strike on an infantryman passing by them: The lance does this at a distance with what I imagine is far greater damage payoff.

I do like that couching a lance isn't as popular as it was in singleplayer, but it hardly seems necessary when couching a lance is more deadly with less payoff than simply thrusting. I'm partial to the thought of making a lance's damage from a side thrust (Relying much more if not entirely on the strength of the individuals arms) being much lower than a frontal thrust (including the impetus of the horse's forward motion behind the strike). That would give a place for the sword in more skirmishing sidelong blows and treat the lance as a charge-specific weapon, not an all-purpose tool of doom.

I like the idea of playing a sword and thrown cavalrymen, but it seems utterly worthless. If I approach a cavalrymen with a lance if he so much as touches me with that lance I am assured to be killed, but swinging the sword leaves much to be desired. As a cavalryman with a lance I have a 50-50 chance of killing an infantryman with a polearm. As a cavalryman with a thrown weapon (Puny damage) or a swung sword (insanely close proximity, potentially limited damage) I'd have something like a 25-75 chance. This might be why some have resorted to using axes on horseback to much success, but it feels disappointing that the "Blade" portion of Mount and Blade is being relegated to the back seat in favor of Lances.

Just a moment ago I got one lucky kill with the bastard sword after numerous attempts. Then moments later in rapid succession got three lance kills. Using the Lance on horseback is easy for me and if I play using it I'll score reasonably well and have a good time. If this is indeed newb baying, then I think it can illustrate that newbs gain a proficiency undeserved with the lance. Like others have said here - it's too easy, it has very little reward behind its usage as a result and that ease causes it to be spammed in favor of any other weaponry on horseback. Don't get me wrong, I like the lance and will continue to use it, but I'd like to do so because it's one of many potential arms for a cavalryman - not because I am forced to in order to do anything worth a damn on horseback.

If not lower the effectiveness of the lance, I think something has to be done to make other weapons more appealing from horseback.

I found this a great post, please discuss

 

[Ekpu]

For me it is realy hard to use  a sword on horseback against Infantry.
But maybe its me who sucks at it.

Beside in singleplayer that was a preferred method for me. Get a bastard sword and hack away at that infantry.

I think it would be nice if cavalery would be encouraged to use other weapons beside the lance.

 

[Grubnessul]

Maybe they should reduce the number of lances available and make the stabbing impossible while couching? Also adding the two handed sword or sword of war to some cav classes may encourage non lances.

Funny fact, the other day, I completely surprised (and killed) a few Nords when I pulled my heavy bastard sword out as Swadian man at arms.

 

[The Harmonizer]

I actually liked the restriction on lancing that was there in the last patch (even though it was not intentional)
Restricting the lance to be only able to use 45 degrees to each side of the horse.
Some new animations like leaning to the side when riding and reading your sword would help to extend the puny reach it has now.

 

[Mabons]

I would like to see them restrict lance thrust angles at couching speed, maybe to the point it was in .622. Then I can see other weapons being used.

 

[Grubnessul]

did they remove that in .623? 

 

[Úlfheðinn]

Indeed, turned out it was a bug, not an intended feature.

 

[Grubnessul]

Hmm that's too bad.

Another thing that could work is making other weapons than lances, like the bardiche, free

 

[Kevlar]

Indeed, turned out it was a bug, not an intended feature.

Was kind of funny since I made a post about it being a bug then the same day its patched

Devs must love me. I was starting to get use to it though, also gave me more melee practice since cavalry wasn't very good at all.

 

[HTAPAWASO]

I like the idea of keeping forward thrusting the way it is, but making sideways thrusting do far less damage.

Not with a sudden 45 degree barrier, but a progressive thing. After all, you still get some speed bonus from the 45 degrees, whereas at 90 you would have none.

Maybe lowering the damage of lances but increasing the effect of speed bonuses would do the trick...
This would also mean that using a lance as infantry would be far more effective against oncoming cavalry than other infantry, since they would be moving at high speed.

 

[A_Mustang]

Lances are balanced compared to other weapons in my opinion... that might just be that i score plenty of sword and throwing kills on the battlefield, or that I'm finally decent with the lance that I don't want it nerfed  .  In any case, the lance was the main weapon for cavalry on the battlefield.

 

[Arch3r]

Lances are balanced compared to other weapons in my opinion... that might just be that i score plenty of sword and throwing kills on the battlefield, or that I'm finally decent with the lance that I don't want it nerfed  .  In any case, the lance was the main weapon for cavalry on the battlefield.

Yes, but cavalry also had different slashing weapons than infantry, that's what we are missing. Cavalry weapons should be longer and slower than infantry weapons.

 

[The Harmonizer]

Being able to turn the torso is still very importend on horseback but I would like to see less effective lance stabs from the side, not the front.
I have been experimenting with a new style of cavalry tactic: charge in with your lance, hit/miss, slow down the horse and turn while drawing out my sword to move in for the kill. When you approach spears and pikes at less then maximum speed their damage bonus versus you will decrease big time.

 

[A_Mustang]

Lances are balanced compared to other weapons in my opinion... that might just be that i score plenty of sword and throwing kills on the battlefield, or that I'm finally decent with the lance that I don't want it nerfed  .  In any case, the lance was the main weapon for cavalry on the battlefield.

Yes, but cavalry also had different slashing weapons than infantry, that's what we are missing. Cavalry weapons should be longer and slower than infantry weapons.

Being able to turn the torso is still very importend on horseback but I would like to see less effective lance stabs from the side, not the front.
I have been experimenting with a new style of cavalry tactic: charge in with your lance, hit/miss, slow down the horse and turn while drawing out my sword to move in for the kill. When you approach spears and pikes at less then maximum speed their damage bonus versus you will decrease big time.

Exactly; bastard swords are excellent, although i actually get more kills with scimitar. Hitting them with the horse and then striking is a potent combination.   

 

[GetAssista]

Being able to turn the torso is still very importend on horseback but I would like to see less effective lance stabs from the side, not the front.

Yup. Some damage modifier reflecting increased momentum and strain to your arm , that would decrease damage the more sideways is the thrust.

Besides, some serious physics revamp wrt lance tip treatment would be great. It generates excessive damage when connecting sideways, that is when target speed is not parallel to lance shaft speed. Only a hit which connects alon the lance should do full damage. In reality you can't damage armored man when he rides into your lance tip sideways (ok, you can, but only if he rides into it with his face)

 

[Commodore_Frank]

First, the slashing arc through the horse's neck needs to go. Then, give cavalry some slightly longer slashing weapons so they can actually make use of some reach from the side. Maybe then we'll see more people straying from lances.

 

[The Harmonizer]

One off the ways this can be handled is to remove free lances.
Similar to the system that helped balance out trowing axes.