Molyneux Discusses Fable 2 Combat System - He Should've Tried M&B

[MarkQuinn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPWzZGzCLoQ

He says he doesn't think RPGs and combat really go well together, so for Fable 2 he's "trying something a little different".  His little timing system is nothing new, most recently used in The Witcher.  He talks a lot about button mashing and so forth, but when I look at the combat in this video I don't see a damn new thing at all. 

I'm posting this here not to bring up Fable 2, which I'll certainly buy, yes.  But instead I'm bringing this up to tout just how wonderful the combat is in M&B.  M&B is every bit the role-playing game, but the directional combat system is so fluid, so intuitive, so damn FUN that I challenge any other game to top it.  Molyneux should try a few indie games like this, as that's where the real progress is being made IMO.  Gimme a small developer who's passionate about their subject matter and quality FIRST, profits second, any time. 

I hate it when big developers say they're doing something new and revolutionary, and it's just plain NOT.  Like Oblivion's "Radiant AI" which was very fancy sounding but ultimately quirky and underdeveloped. 

God how I love M&B.  No game can touch it, I think.

 

[Nordmann]

I have to agree with you, you've pretty much summed up my thoughts on these so called "revolutionary" games, which turn out to be more hype than substance. When I first found M&B I was surprised at how good the game play actually was, it was everything I'd been looking for and more besides. With the release on .950 and .951 my anticipation of a full version has definitely been heightened, I really don't think there's many games out there, if any, that are going to match this one for overall content and playability.

 

[Lyx]

I'd say the only current downside of the MnB directional system, is the the player is controlling three 2D-output planes with only two 2D-input planes. The mouse is used for viewing-direction as well as hands-movement of the char. I doubt that this can be solved without new input devices which are used without our hands. For example, headtracking could solve this issue - then one could do: keyboard: movement, headtracker: viewing-direction, mouse: hands-movement.

 

[MarkQuinn]

I agree Lyx, it has its limitations.  But just from the standpoint of pure fun, nothing matches it IMO.  I've sporadically gone back to Oblivion from time to time and whenever I swing a sword I get really disappointed because I'm trying to aim it in a certain direction and it just won't happen, LOL.  (That said, I think the combat in Oblivion is ten times better than the crappy button mashing in Morrowind.  Not saying OB is a better pure role-playing game, but the combat is just better.)

 

[Lyx]

Agreed, its the best scheme which is possible with the currently available input-devices. And even when new input devices become more common, it would stay useful, because you dont always for example have a headtracker available. Keyboard + Mouse is like MP3: Its now so common and well established, that its not gonna go away soon even with new tech - simply because it works everywhere.

 

[MarkQuinn]

*snip*

Don't worry my friend.  I am convinced that one day we will have the Star Trek holodeck.  Or perhaps just VR that really works well.  Let me just say for the record, when that day comes I'm probably not leaving the house.  Ever.  Except to buy new games.  God I'm a geek. 

 

[MarkQuinn]

That said, I think the combat in Oblivion is ten times better than the crappy button mashing in Morrowind.

Oh by the way, the directional combat system aside, one reason I do like combat in Oblivion, and one reason I like M&B's even more, is precisely because of the timing needed to be successful.  In fact it's all about timing.  In both games you want to get that hit in before the other guy, decide whether to block or counter-attack in the split second before you're hit, and both are definately fluid.  Which is why I think Molyneuex has his head up his ass when he says "timing" is something new he's bringing to the game.  Actually, no.  ALL you're bringing to the game is timing.  Same with The Witcher.  Just because you've removed the directional aspect (and let's face it, Oblivion has a directional element too, you just can't aim your sword), doesn't mean you're revolutionary.  I could say "Hey, I'm changing the way novels are written.  It'll be revolutionary!  I'm writing a beginning and middle but no end!"  Yeah, might not be orthodox, but that doesn't make it good.

 

[Jon Snow]

That looks like the most absolutely terrible combat system I have ever seen. Long live M&B!

 

[Mako]

M&B would be perfect for using a game controller like from an Xbox/PS, which there are some available for PC's. Left trigger block, right trigger swing weapon. Left thumbstick move view direction around. Right direction pad movement. Then you've got a few extra buttons for shortcuts like changing weapons or orders and jumping. Would be awesome if it could be made to work with something like that, and by itself would probably get me to finally get one (I've wanted to get one for other games for some time, but never have gotten around to it).

The gameplay I'll agree is the best part about M&B. Even without a story or plot, this is one of the most fun games to just load up and fight battles in. Yet as each version has come out there has been more and more content, with stories and quests. But the best part to me is how open-ended the game is. If a storyline were put in that would lead you by the hand through the game it would kill much of what it has going for it. Plus add in the welcoming of mods, which gives the game so much more replayability and customization to what each person wants out of it than most other games out there on the market. I'm so sick of reading the hype of other games that never lives up to what they keep talking about, that the only game I'm truly looking forward to being released is the final version of M&B. I know it's something I'll enjoy, and each thing that's added just makes it all the better.

 

[MarkQuinn]

Well Mako as an old salty dog like myself you'd probably agree that a "light" story system like in Pirates! would be ideal.  In fact so much of the M&B gameplay is modelled after Pirates!, and the new "retire" option being added of course, that it wouldn't be too much of a jump for them to add that.  In other words, you have the story of the evil Spaniard who's kidnapped your family.  The story consists of getting them back.  You can pursue that story or totally ignore it.  Or, pick it up later.  Or just pick up parts of it.  Whatever you want.

I wish more games would adopt a light optional story feature like that.

 

[Erwin]

M&B would be perfect for using a game controller like from an Xbox/PS, which there are some available for PC's. Left trigger block, right trigger swing weapon. Left thumbstick move view direction around. Right direction pad movement. Then you've got a few extra buttons for shortcuts like changing weapons or orders and jumping. Would be awesome if it could be made to work with something like that, and by itself would probably get me to finally get one (I've wanted to get one for other games for some time, but never have gotten around to it).

That shouldn't be too hard, actually. These usually come with software that allows you to map keys to buttons, and I'm fairly sure I've seen something that maps your joystick input onto your mouse.

There are actually only three games with a decent combat system (note that I didn't say realistic) that requires skill on part of the player. Everything else, including Fable 2 by the looks of it, is just a buttonmasher of one sort or another.
These three games are: M&B, obviously. There are things that could be improved (such as implementing a completely freeform attack directions or the ability to perform attacks of different speed/power), but overall it's very enjoyable. The second one is Blade of Darkness. Classic model of direction-based attacks with a focus on combos and special moves, but first and foremost the best portrayal of the importance of reach and timing I have ever seen. It's the one game which had me circling my opponents carefully, waiting for them to make a mistake that would leave them open. And finally Die by the Sword, in which you control your guy with the keyboard and his sword-arm with the mouse. That was a revolutionary game. Not surprisingly not very successful, considering the learning curve for a control scheme like that.

 

[Mako]

Well Mako as an old salty dog like myself you'd probably agree that a "light" story system like in Pirates! would be ideal.  In fact so much of the M&B gameplay is modelled after Pirates!, and the new "retire" option being added of course, that it wouldn't be too much of a jump for them to add that.  In other words, you have the story of the evil Spaniard who's kidnapped your family.  The story consists of getting them back.  You can pursue that story or totally ignore it.  Or, pick it up later.  Or just pick up parts of it.  Whatever you want.

I wish more games would adopt a light optional story feature like that.

Oh, absolutely! I never realized how similar M&B gameplay is to Pirates! (though with a much better combat system - that game is just another button masher, too), until that retire option was added. And that's not meant as negative in any way at all, but a huge thumbs up from me, as this is the kind of game I enjoy most.

A light story that is optional is perfect. Just a bunch of side quests that you can do in any order or ignore completely is by far the best way to go. I'm just rather sick of playing games where you basically could write a book (and they often do with strategy guides) that takes you step-by-step through the game, and which you need to do the same way every time you play it. I want to be given a world with things to do, but let me as the player write my own story as I go along. Where I can play the game hundreds of times and it's never quite the same. 

That shouldn't be too hard, actually. These usually come with software that allows you to map keys to buttons, and I'm fairly sure I've seen something that maps your joystick input onto your mouse.
....

Ah, very cool. I'll have to check into getting one sometime, then. I haven't used a joystick/controller for my PC in years (at least not since I got my "new" PC which doesn't use my old one almost 5 years ago), but that makes sense.

 

[Lyx]

...
These three games are: M&B, obviously. There are things that could be improved (such as implementing a completely freeform attack directions or the ability to perform attacks of different speed/power), but overall it's very enjoyable.
...

It may be quite difficult to implement something like that, because the more finegrained mousetrigger-->action becomes, the more prone to error it becomes. In the middle of hectic combat, doing precise mouse movements becomes difficult, also because as already mentioned, you are using the mouse for two things (view and attack-definition). Even with the current simplistic system, i sometimes accidentelly trigger an undesired attack-move, because of the above reasons. If Viewing/Aiming and attack-definition were on seperate input devices, then more finegrained attack moves may be more feasible. Because of this, i do not really consider the simplistic attack-system suboptimal, but more a necessary compromise.

 

[MarkQuinn]

The second one is Blade of Darkness.

Holy sh!t!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEU24lNI6JQ

People, check this one out.  Erwin, thank you for the recomendations!  On my way to amazon.com now.  Any issues playing that on Vista that you know of?

 

[Tzsak]

Just wondering, do you guys prefer Mount and Blade's style of melee combat or that seen in Chronicles of Riddick or Dark Messiah?

Ie, in M&B you use the mouse movement when pressing attack to choose which attack you do while in the others your choice of attack depends on your movement direction.

 

[MarkQuinn]

I don't have Riddick but I do have Dark Messiah, Tzsak.  It's been so long since I played it though, that I forget.  Don't even have it installed anymore, as it was just too linear and frustrating for me.  As I recall, though, I very much enjoyed the combat system, but still prefer the mouse movement + attack from M&B.

 

[Theo]

Ie, in M&B you use the mouse movement when pressing attack to choose which attack you do while in the others your choice of attack depends on your movement direction.

You can do much more different type basic attacks and combination attacks by using directional keys and other keyboard keys with them than using just mouse. M&B fights can be hectic, but basic moves are very simple.

 

[radicalhit]

this is funny. those bastards think putting extra eye-blinding shine not only on steel, but also on leather and then think its revolutionary. i personally prefer animation and gameplay over graphics which m&b does perfectly

 

[Lyx]

Hype, massappeal and expensive presentation, is how the "industry" is competing..... perhaps because its the only thing, which a multi-million dollar corporation can do better than everyone else. Plus, you know, its a safe bet without risks: You just pour in N amount of dollars, and get N amount of value out of the product...... that isn't the case, if you're competing by innovation.

 

[Theo]

Molyneux is infamous of his hype. He talks a lot of his projects and gives big multi page reviews to gaming magazines, but end product usually can't outlive of it's hype, or those things which he talks are just minor details compared in whole game play.