Mods Vs Devs

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Serious Question:

How is it that Modders are able to get features that work properly or add features to the game when the developers are not able to produce the same result? For example, in the most recent Dev Blog they (TW) wants to make it so each culture is using specific troop types more frequently then other cultures. I'm sitting over here thinking this has already been done by the team that did the Eagle Rising mod.

These modders arent being paid, they are doing this for the love of the game and on their own free time. Meanwhile we have devs from a company whose fulltime job is to code, implement features and fix bugs and we still have prolonging issues with certain basic elements of the game i.e. "Siege Warfare".
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Serious Question:

How is it that Modders are able to get features that work properly or add features to the game when the developers are not able to produce the same result? For example, in the most recent Dev Blog they (TW) wants to make it so each culture is using specific troop types more frequently then other cultures. I'm sitting over here thinking this has already been done by the team that did the Eagle Rising mod.

These modders arent being paid, they are doing this for the love of the game and on their own free time. Meanwhile we have devs from a company whose fulltime job is to code, implement features and fix bugs and we still have prolonging issues with certain basic elements of the game i.e. "Siege Warfare".
Because modding a game and developing a game are two separate things.

Because modders outnumber developers 100's to 1.

Because what may seem like a priority to you - might not be to Taleworlds.

Because modders don't have to get their work approved.

Because modders don't have to think about long-term repercussions of their changes.

Because developers are employees with time limits, working hours and other commitments. Modders pick their own timescales.

By all means judge TW for the slow progress of bannerlord... but you always see these kinds of thread pop up on gaming forums - and they bother the hell out of me...
 

Tork789

Knight at Arms
WBNWWF&SM&BVC
Because modding a game and developing a game are two separate things.

Because modders outnumber developers 100's to 1.

Because what may seem like a priority to you - might not be to Taleworlds.

Because modders don't have to get their work approved.

Because modders don't have to think about long-term repercussions of their changes.

Because developers are employees with time limits, working hours and other commitments. Modders pick their own timescales.

By all means judge TW for the slow progress of bannerlord... but you always see these kinds of thread pop up on gaming forums - and they bother the hell out of me...
I'll just say that I admire how you're still capable of trying to reason with people, I gave up quite some time ago.
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I'll just say that I admire how you're still capable of trying to reason with people, I gave up quite some time ago.
This isn't even a bannerlord thing - you get these threads on Total War forums, Rimworld forums etc etc. It bothers the hell out of me.

Let me offer a very simple example;

I could 'mod' the game right now and increase the max unit size to 2000. You could then ask why can Axios make 2000 units possible but TW can't?

Well I didn't test the performance impact that would have. I didn't adjust any of the maps or scenes so they could accommodate 2000 units. I have no idea if 2000 units is compatible with the future plans for the game. I haven't looked at any kind of balance, or long-term effects this might have on the game environment. I didn't seek approval to make it 2000 nor did I have to fit it into my work schedule to make other changes.
 
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Cochus1

Sergeant at Arms
It's funny because they doesn't seem to know that modding isn't posible WITHOUT the modding tools supplied by Taleworlds. Tools which are developed spending a lot of time on them.

So when they decide to do it they are shooting on their own feet for ppl like the OP.
 

black_bulldog

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SVC
How many times are we gonna get this question? Use the damn search tool in the forum.
It's a sad fact that there are a lot of lazy people in the world, so using something like a search tool and sifting through threads is too much effort for many.
 
What actually annoys me is that you ask this question very well knowing the answer(s) with the purpose of wanting this thread to be some kind of sophisticated discussion on this boards. You already made one thread about it, it's not enough?

Do we need more of these topics on here? It'll just encourage more arguments that do nothing for both modders and developers alike.
 
It's not that coding the feature is so time consuming or difficult, but that TW needs to decide to commit to the idea, possibly at the expense of another. Everything they add has to work with everything else and they have to be committed to maintaining it across updates and with other changes.
On the contrary a modder can just decide "this is a good idea" bang it out and upload it. If the game crashes when the next update comes out OH WELL.
 

Ling*

Knight at Arms
This isn't even a bannerlord thing - you get these threads on Total War forums, Rimworld forums etc etc. It bothers the hell out of me.

Let me offer a very simple example;

I could 'mod' the game right now and increase the max unit size to 2000. You could then ask why can Axios make 2000 units possible but TW can't?

Well I didn't test the performance impact that would have. I didn't adjust any of the maps or scenes so they could accommodate 2000 units. I have no idea if 2000 units is compatible with the future plans for the game. I haven't looked at any kind of balance, or long-term effects this might have on the game environment. I didn't seek approval to make it 2000 nor did I have to fit it into my work schedule to make other changes.
Can you make this mod for me?
lol I totally would play the crap out of it.
 

Moton

Squire
It's a sad fact that there are a lot of lazy people in the world, so using something like a search tool and sifting through threads is too much effort for many.

Yeah it's insane. You literally only have to write "VS" and look for 1 minute and you find other threads just like this one. Even at the bottom of this thread in the "Similiar threads" part you find 3 other threads not even 1 month old asking the exakt same questions.

Edit: One of them is his own thread. So this is his second thread about this in 3 months. Wierd dude.
 

Ruihan

Recruit
It's funny because they doesn't seem to know that modding isn't posible WITHOUT the modding tools supplied by Taleworlds. Tools which are developed spending a lot of time on them.

So when they decide to do it they are shooting on their own feet for ppl like the OP.
Probably for the scene creation and equipment meshes yeah.
I'm mainly do C# coding for mods so I never use the modding tools
Would be nice if Taleworlds published some documentation for their code so I don't need to spend so much time looking through their decompiled binaries
 

Ruihan

Recruit
I'm sitting over here thinking this has already been done by the team that did the Eagle Rising mod.
The way its done in Eagle Rising will not work for the main game. Troops for the empire in Eagle Rising are split into 4 separate unit trees for legionaries, auxiliaries, officers, and standard bearers. Each type of troop has a weighted spawn rate in settlement recruitment.
In the main game its one big troop tree so that method of having weighted spawn rates will not work
 
This isn't even a bannerlord thing - you get these threads on Total War forums, Rimworld forums etc etc. It bothers the hell out of me.
It shouldn't, the people saying this are right in some specific ways, but not in many others. The reality is nuanced, like everything else.
You should be bothered by your inclination to take the company side in every argument.
On the contrary a modder can just decide "this is a good idea" bang it out and upload it. If the game crashes when the next update comes out OH WELL.
Maybe, depends on the modder skill and professional standards. But even if a mod release is full of bugs, you can expect swift reaction in fixing these bugs.
The bigger problem with modders (programmers really) is that sometimes they do things just because they can be done and don't ask themselves if they should be done.
 

Phantom425

Sergeant
It shouldn't, the people saying this are right in some specific ways, but not in many others. The reality is nuanced, like everything else.
You should be bothered by your inclination to take the company side in every argument.
All this threads do is cause a divide between modders and devs, and serve no real purpose besides that. As has been illuminated earlier in the thread, there are constraints that devs have that modders do not. I see no reason why pitting devs against modders shouldn’t bother someone, as it just creates a sense of animosity and competitiveness that just isn’t needed, and most of the time just serves to bash the devs.
 
All this threads do is cause a divide between modders and devs, and serve no real purpose besides that. As has been illuminated earlier in the thread, there are constraints that devs have that modders do not. I see no reason why pitting devs against modders shouldn’t bother someone, as it just creates a sense of animosity and competitiveness that just isn’t needed, and most of the time just serves to bash the devs.
It is made worse by Taleworlds' slow pace of development, for which they could be justifiably criticized and unfavorably compared to modders.
Although the bigger problem with Taleworlds is that they don't choose to implement widely requested features, because their decision makers are out of touch with the player base. Modders know much better what players want and deliver.
The problem with threads like these is they are emotional rant threads where everything is exaggerated and people feel they need to take a side and bash the other one.
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
How is it that Modders are able to get features that work properly or add features to the game when the developers are not able to produce the same result?
SadShogun gave a lot of the constraints they work under for BL in a post:
Hi, sorry I was on a vacation for quite a while.

I think most of the suggestions you made are good.
The first one is a bit heavy on the micro-management side and introduces a lot of extra mechanics (and UI) so I am a bit wary of it.
An alternative to this one (which is micro-management free) is that the notables who do not support you passively lose power (so they get replaced by ones that support you.)

Continuing on we have the 3rd and 4th suggestions which have a similar theme about relationship and support;
Actually, we considered a system which you highlighted as your 4th suggestion

The problem with this suggestion applied on its own is that if implemented as is each notable has to check their relationship with all of the clans in the game which is not ideal performance-wise. So we decided against it.

One approach is that the notables can only check their owner for such a change (e.g. if a Vlandian supporter notable is under control of Banu Hulyan Clan (Aserai) it would only check whether his current relationship with the Vlandian clan and Banu Hulyan instead of all of the clans.

This however introduces an additional check which currently does not exist. While mechanics adding depth are welcome, we in general dislike rule exceptions.
Another possible "downside" of this additional rule is that, if a notable support the clan which owns the city, it becomes impossible for them to defect. This is of course might not be of importance.

I believe this is a nice solution that does not require any new saveable fields. However, we still need a consistent way of dropping the relation with the old owner.
A simple relation decay (to 0) for the notable looks and works nice but still introduces a rule exception (all relations stay the same, for some reason notable relations decay)

The ideas you mentioned make the notable support mechanic more meaningful and I personally support these however, like all ideas they might bear additional costs which are not apparent immediately.

So the two ideas which I think would improve the situation are;
1. The notables who do not support your clan lose power and are replaced by ones who support you.
2. The notables defect to you if the controlling clan's relation is higher than their current supported clan's relation. Also relations decay.

What do you think about these ideas?

Hope I was able to communicate my concerns regarding the suggestions.
As always thank you for your feedback!
I figured they were working under "no breaking saves" since saves from way, way, way back still load just fine and obviously performance ones were always going to be there. I appreciated the latter back when I played on a potato laptop.
 

Phantom425

Sergeant
It is made worse by Taleworlds' slow pace of development, for which they could be justifiably criticized and unfavorably compared to modders.
A pace which was explained by Mexxico as to having a very unfortunate development, or has that post already been forgotten.
Although the bigger problem with Taleworlds is that they don't choose to implement widely requested features, because their decision makers are out of touch with the player base. Modders know much better what players want and deliver.
Modders know what certain players want and deliver. TW is going to try to appeal to the vast majority of players, that is what the right decision for them is. Modders can cater to the more niche aspects that die-hard fans want. One audience is more vast, the other is an outspoken minority, and both deserve to have their version of the game, and that is where modders come in.
The problem with threads like these is they are emotional rant threads where everything is exaggerated and people feel they need to take a side and bash the other one.
That’s a problem with more then just this thread.
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
It shouldn't, the people saying this are right in some specific ways, but not in many others. The reality is nuanced, like everything else.
You should be bothered by your inclination to take the company side in every argument.
Mostly because I like to play devils advocate - and most discussion on this forum is negative rather then positive. I promise you in an alternate universe where everyone was saying the game was perfect (despite it being identical to what it is here) i'd be the one making the fuss.

However this thread in particular bothers me - because it's the same arguement I've seen 100x before on every game forum i've ever joined. IMPO it serves no purpose other then to start arguments and diss the devs.

it's not criticism that bothers me - it's insult without purpose.
 
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