Mods may worth the wait but...

[Midnitewolf]

I see the pendulum has once more swung from "TW where's my patch? get to work" back to "TW stop patching the game."

I think they problem is that the devs are being pulled both ways. The success of this game has brought tons of new players to the scene that just don't understand that Native is not where this game franchise shines. Also the younger generation of gamer seems to accept only perfection or a game is consider trash. Both those factors are pushing the devs to try to polish Native to be some AAA wonder game when it is only the creative imaginations of it modding community that will push the game to perfection. Those of us who played Warband a ton understand this.

The thing that sold me on Warband was that by using mods I could basically create any game play experience I desired. If I felt something wasn't balanced correctly, chances are someone else felt the same way and would correct that balance. Hell chances are, there would be a dozen different solutions to the same problem and I could then just go in an choose what solution was most fun for me to play with. Bannerlord is the same. That is the power of modding in this game. 90% of the gripes and complaints on these forums can and will be corrected in a mod yet the devs are spending time and resources on fixing or adding these things instead of fixing the core problems of the game that aren't easily fixed by a mod.

The reality is, the game is already a success with 2-5 million copies sold in early access. Polishing it to this excess isn't going to sell them any more. However, being able to play Game of Thrones, Warhammer, Lord of the Rings, dozens of historical mod conversions, etc, that will sell them 2-5 million more but that isn't going to happen until the game releases and they stop patching.

 

[Apocal]

The reality is, the game is already a success with 2-5 million copies sold in early access. Polishing it to this excess isn't going to sell them any more. However, being able to play Game of Thrones, Warhammer, Lord of the Rings, dozens of historical mod conversions, etc, that will sell them 2-5 million more but that isn't going to happen until the game releases and they stop patching.

There is scant evidence that mods contribute to actual sales. I've seen (via Steam charts) DLC and major content releases move numbers of concurrent players but even then, the pattern for high-vis SP games is massively front-loaded sales and even big DLC a fraction of that. The biggest mod releases, in comparison, were literally invisible.

 

[Philozoraptor]

I think mods have more indirect effect. It makes people play the game longer than they would otherwise, which means that there is bigger active playerbase that may potentially buy DLCs and expansions or at least create content (such as videos) that might persuade new players to buy the game and/or DLCs. Afterall more pupular the product is in the long term, more wider spread free promotion it recieves.

 

[MostBlunted]

I own a lot of games and I mean really a lot. I really like games that can be modded but I´ve never bought a single game because of a mod.

 

[Mad Vader]

There is scant evidence that mods contribute to actual sales. I've seen (via Steam charts) DLC and major content releases move numbers of concurrent players but even then, the pattern for high-vis SP games is massively front-loaded sales and even big DLC a fraction of that. The biggest mod releases, in comparison, were literally invisible.

I don't think mod influence on sales can be visible on a simple sales graph over time. A survey would reveal more.
Mods are almost never released in a classical way, starting with 1.0, they are typically available from some playable alpha state and have iterative releases.
So when Player 1 plays Mod X and has a blast, its version 0.87 he plays. He tells Players 2-4, his gaming buddies, what a blast that mod is, and they eventually succumb. This is not something that happens at once everywhere, so you'll see a sales spike, but is distributed over time.
Probably more influential is Youtuber Alpha who showcases the game with the mod to his followers, who are then persuaded to buy the game for the mod in a large group, which is possibly visible in a sales graph.
It's also reasonable to assume that a mature game with several major and popular mods would be bought by new players specifically for the mod variety.

 

[Worlok]

Its the new Steam players that know nothing about M&B that got them to combine children and dying of old age into the death options...so no, they should not listen to new players ever...they know nothing about this genre of game and the majority of them bought this game expecting something very different. They are the ones calling for removing the sandbox and options from this game. The ones demanding that all factions are equal, for balance. The ones that think that horse archers should not be better than normal archers and that their non-shield holding 2h axers should be on par with shielded knights nor should fall to archers before they get to them.

This game, was built BY the players. Warband and wFaS were based almost completely on modder ideas and Viking Invasion was made by TW AND the Brytenwalda modding team...aka, M&B players. So if they are going to listen to any players, it should be those that know the game and have loved it for such a long time that they kept the game company in business all these years. The elitist attitude comes from those that know nothing about the game, yet think their input is on par with those that do know it.

-100
This is so untrue. The only one who scrued up the game is TW. No player feedback can scrue up a game if the developers have clear vision.

 

[Midnitewolf]

There is scant evidence that mods contribute to actual sales. I've seen (via Steam charts) DLC and major content releases move numbers of concurrent players but even then, the pattern for high-vis SP games is massively front-loaded sales and even big DLC a fraction of that. The biggest mod releases, in comparison, were literally invisible.

This is a different game than most. Most games, modding just adds more to the original game but nothing really changes. Warband on the other hand, each total conversion mod changed the game completely, in fact I used to marvel at how the game felt completely different with each new mod I applied. Also most games, even modded won't let you play Game of Thrones, Warhammer, Lord of the Rings, hell Star Wars and many, many other popular setting all in one package.

Personally I was lucky because I got into Warband well after some of the best total conversions were available. If Native would have been the only thing available when I bought Warband, it would have been a 50-100 hour game and never played again. Instead I have several thousand hours on Warband alone. Same for Bannerlord. Totally bored with Native after around 50 hours, no desire to play. With mods, I am approaching 350 hours and can't wait until some of the more ambitious total conversions come online.

I also know that I managed to get like 5 of my friends playing Warband well after it release due to showing them what was available in the mods. There will be tons of people who have never even looked at this game that will be watching Youtube down the road and a total conversion Warhammer, Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones Mod being showcased and will rush out to buy this game because of it.

As far tracking the influence mods have on sales, yeah I don't doubt that it is almost impossible to track. For example you might get a small uptick in sales when a big, well made Lord of the Rings mod finally releases, but it may take months to make the rounds before everyone who might be interested who doesn't already own the game gets on board. If your tracking this on a spreadsheet, it might not be more than a blip, but in reality 50,000 additional copies were sold over a 6 month period as word of mouth spreads about "this awesome Lord of the Rings game that nobody ever heard about".

I own a lot of games and I mean really a lot. I really like games that can be modded but I´ve never bought a single game because of a mod.

I kind of mention it above but the ENTIRE reason I bought Warband was because I saw a Youtube video showing off one of the Total Conversion Mods, I think it might have been showing off Floris Expanded at the time. I immediately went out and bought the game and have been hooked ever since.

Hell it to a degree even happened with Bannerlord. I stop playing back in May of 2020 after about 250 hours of gameplay. Native wasn't really changing much and the modding community was held up by the constant patches and lack of full modding tools so I got bored. About 2-3 week ago I was just checking out Youtude and saw videos showcasing Ronin and Eagles Rising and said, "Oh hell yeah, that looks cool, time to update Bannerlord and get to playing". I have added 100 hours to my total played specifically because of a Mod.

I don't think mod influence on sales can be visible on a simple sales graph over time. A survey would reveal more.
Mods are almost never released in a classical way, starting with 1.0, they are typically available from some playable alpha state and have iterative releases.
So when Player 1 plays Mod X and has a blast, its version 0.87 he plays. He tells Players 2-4, his gaming buddies, what a blast that mod is, and they eventually succumb. This is not something that happens at once everywhere, so you'll see a sales spike, but is distributed over time.
Probably more influential is Youtuber Alpha who showcases the game with the mod to his followers, who are then persuaded to buy the game for the mod in a large group, which is possibly visible in a sales graph.
It's also reasonable to assume that a mature game with several major and popular mods would be bought by new players specifically for the mod variety.

Yeah this is exactly what I was saying above. It won't show as a sales spike, it shows as sales over time. People bought this game originally because of either the hype or they were people like me who were huge fans of Warband. That is what drove initial sales. You may call it "Early Access" if you want but last March really was release. The actual release won't drastically spike sales nearly as much. What will happen though is that more and better mods will come out once the game releases since there won't be so many patches disrupting the modders work and those mods will drive sales over time. Where many game just have a sales spike at release and nothing more than a trickle after, Bannerlord should honestly see a steady and consistant growth due to how important mods are to the success of this particular title.

 

[Berzerker Jay]

Just want to chime in that I appreciate Taleworld's approach for making tweaks to the balance of the game, informing players of the tweaks, and then receiving and responding to feedback on the resulting balance of the game.

It's smart. Change more all at once, more infrequently, and it's more difficult to tell what threw the balance off. This pace is very wise from that standpoint.

If anything I wish there was some more information on a coming update. I actually start fresh every update, playing vanilla, so that I can better see the difference and give informed feedback. It's minor and I accept it, but sometimes I'm really getting into a character and grinding away at making my vision happen, only to have a big patch come through -- if I knew it was coming, I might instead put that inspiration into a fresh character, but it's not a huge deal, just a bit of a difference I guess in the feel of it.

Otherwise I'm stoked on the regular development and the attention devs pay to the community. We have our ideas, and we have this forum to argue their benefits, but at the end of the day it comes down to whether it's cohesive with the devs' vision for the game. I don't know about you, but that vision is what's had me stoked on this game for quite a few years already.

 

[Berzerker Jay]

As to mods, I think modders have to understand what modding a game that's in early-access means. The game's development during early access shouldn't be curbed for a mod, and most mature modders should understand this. Once the game is released, that's when the modding is going to flourish, and the real modders who are going to actually put out great work are going to know this.

It's like this with all early-access games. If you want to build an entirely different game, why not go ahead and do it? Maybe you can even work something out with Taleworlds to use code from one of these early-access versions. But let the game come out before you start complaining that it's under development -- regular updates are an example of doing early-access right, ffs!

 

[Midnitewolf]

As to mods, I think modders have to understand what modding a game that's in early-access means. The game's development during early access shouldn't be curbed for a mod, and most mature modders should understand this. Once the game is released, that's when the modding is going to flourish, and the real modders who are going to actually put out great work are going to know this.

It's like this with all early-access games. If you want to build an entirely different game, why not go ahead and do it? Maybe you can even work something out with Taleworlds to use code from one of these early-access versions. But let the game come out before you start complaining that it's under development -- regular updates are an example of doing early-access right, ffs!

The problem is that it isn't about understanding, it is about human nature. You can call a game Early Access all you want but once the game is available to the general public in whatever state it is in, the game is technically released and I think developers and a lot people don't seem to understand that enough.

Now I don't necessarily have a problem with a game being tagged as "Early Access" or that there are changes going on but I do not believe the vast majority of people who bought this game or any game in early access really accept this, at least not deep down in their subconscious. This is going back to human nature. What people see is that there is a game and see that it is playable. Even if they intellectually accept that the game is in early access and will change a lot, their actual tolerance for the game being unfinished and those changes is generally much less than they realize. That being the case, if a game stays in "Early Access" too long it runs the risk of players becoming fatigued by an unfinished product and outright losing interest and/or labeling the game trash because of lack of progress or being unhappy with the direction of development or whatever reason they use to justify their disappointment.

So we can say all day long that people need to understand that the game isn't finished yet and that anyone playing the game should be prepared for lots of changes and disruption but the real understanding of those things only goes so far before it succumbs to human nature and our desire for instant gratification.

As far as complaining about a game being still in development, I honestly think there is a very valid argument that a project under development could very well be taking too long to develop. For example, if I am correct that players are starting to develop early access fatigue and that the length of time the game has been in development is hurting the modding community to the point were it might have difficulty recovering as the excitement and interest in modding is starting to wane, then it is a real legitimate problem. Advising that such a circumstance might be occurring is only showing concern for the final product and not negativity. I do honestly think Taleworlds needs to be thinking about wrapping it up and if they delay too long, it might hurt the game rather than helping it.

I can also respect others disagreeing and feeling Taleworlds should spend another year polishing the game before release as well but while I can acknowledge that, I can only feel fatigue that Bannerlord is unfinished and disappointed that so many mods have been abandoned with so few new mods being created, leading me to feeling that things are in serious decline due to the length of time it is taking to finalize a release. Who's right? No clue, but I am hoping that either Talesworlds hurries it up or that I am totally wrong and however long it take to finalize the game, there will be enough interest for Bannerlord for it be every bit as wonderful and successful as Warband was all the while having as many or more amazing mods.

 

[sositehui]

These well made mods won't come out soon as well as the native senario.Instead of that,they will take many years of effort and work before all these problems were ironed out.Becuase bannerlord is a much bigger project than warband.Even that full release of mount&blade 1.011( 2008 )takes several years as it turn to be warband from the earliest playable version 0.808(which could count as the early access of previous series)This means bannerlord is supposed to have many flaws in their design and some valid protential bugs when it is full released(if its official announcement of that confirmed in 2021).SO I doubt it will make a big progress until good dlc are released same as what M&B 1.011 did(yes warband is a dlc indeed),then modders truly have something fundamentally exist to do anything further.

Otherwise the game just keep making many confusing changes and mods never could be usable,not to mention a senario like prophesy of pendor.It still would have some mods to custom skins of soldier and equipment but lack of the soul,that means a well constructed outlook of the sand box world(the bannerlord itself has not got it yet,after all).If you install a mod,you probably find still in the world of calradia and it has something not so revelant to that mod.The true reason why these happened is Taleworlds only have around 100 staff in their company and they are almostly like the size of one department or branch office in a manufacture(which means they might be in short of time to deal with those massive daily works).

I understand they would love to fix bugs because the damn bug fixing things could let many famous studios spend their time to fix them with years and years of work,even they have much more resources.There's nothing I can do but wait for it.A better dlc is much more probably delicious and I think it has no need to get your hope up.The best solution is to try some other games if this waiting become too fraustrating,just let those core gamer and modders keep playing it.They will point out what this game is really lack of and where those problems are.

I would say talewolds,in their aspects also have a wrong thought that they should make some tiny changes to specially cater to all gamers but what we think is those things are unnecessary even negative to bannerlord.Back in the days,some part of the feedbacks were come from a group of people that even barely count as midcore gamer,they just spend some times to play the game and give it up quickly as what they did to newly come out 3A game.Those communities are like passengers on a bus,arrvive at some place and then leave（while taleworlds cannot realize different strokes never for different folks and every type of product exist for solid customer base).Then Taleworlds made inconsistent choices trying to make some change.But now things are going well becuase if you chat with these people still playing bannerlord or those keep waiting,you will find most of them are the truly ones who love mount&blade games.Taleworlds is a independent game workshop,not those 3A game developers.They should listen to their old friends or community really belongs to them.

tldr
u writing all dat stuff expecting som1 will read it?

 

[Berzerker Jay]

The problem is that it isn't about understanding, it is about human nature. You can call a game Early Access all you want but once the game is available to the general public in whatever state it is in, the game is technically released and I think developers and a lot people don't seem to understand that enough.

Now I don't necessarily have a problem with a game being tagged as "Early Access" or that there are changes going on but I do not believe the vast majority of people who bought this game or any game in early access really accept this, at least not deep down in their subconscious. This is going back to human nature. What people see is that there is a game and see that it is playable. Even if they intellectually accept that the game is in early access and will change a lot, their actual tolerance for the game being unfinished and those changes is generally much less than they realize. That being the case, if a game stays in "Early Access" too long it runs the risk of players becoming fatigued by an unfinished product and outright losing interest and/or labeling the game trash because of lack of progress or being unhappy with the direction of development or whatever reason they use to justify their disappointment.

So we can say all day long that people need to understand that the game isn't finished yet and that anyone playing the game should be prepared for lots of changes and disruption but the real understanding of those things only goes so far before it succumbs to human nature and our desire for instant gratification.

As far as complaining about a game being still in development, I honestly think there is a very valid argument that a project under development could very well be taking too long to develop. For example, if I am correct that players are starting to develop early access fatigue and that the length of time the game has been in development is hurting the modding community to the point were it might have difficulty recovering as the excitement and interest in modding is starting to wane, then it is a real legitimate problem. Advising that such a circumstance might be occurring is only showing concern for the final product and not negativity. I do honestly think Taleworlds needs to be thinking about wrapping it up and if they delay too long, it might hurt the game rather than helping it.

I can also respect others disagreeing and feeling Taleworlds should spend another year polishing the game before release as well but while I can acknowledge that, I can only feel fatigue that Bannerlord is unfinished and disappointed that so many mods have been abandoned with so few new mods being created, leading me to feeling that things are in serious decline due to the length of time it is taking to finalize a release. Who's right? No clue, but I am hoping that either Talesworlds hurries it up or that I am totally wrong and however long it take to finalize the game, there will be enough interest for Bannerlord for it be every bit as wonderful and successful as Warband was all the while having as many or more amazing mods.

Honestly that is a lot of text. I read the first couple paragraphs, but your basically circling the same argument repeatedly, that subconsciously we don't accept this is early-access -- even perplexingly in response to a member of the community telling you it's early-access and it's reasonable to accept.

What is the benefit to which you propose? Why should the game defer to the unreasonable?

Are you honestly predicting that people won't make mods for this game when it's ready? You don't think things will change when this game is actually at the point where it's even fully supporting modding and is on Workshop? I don't know if I think that prediction is so accurate, if so.

 

[Mad Vader]

Patches breaking mods is actually good for the modding scene, it weeds out the modders that can't commit and would have left their mods unfinished anyway. Only the strong and the unemployed will survive the purge.

 

[Apocal]

I don't think mod influence on sales can be visible on a simple sales graph over time. A survey would reveal more.
Mods are almost never released in a classical way, starting with 1.0, they are typically available from some playable alpha state and have iterative releases.
So when Player 1 plays Mod X and has a blast, its version 0.87 he plays. He tells Players 2-4, his gaming buddies, what a blast that mod is, and they eventually succumb. This is not something that happens at once everywhere, so you'll see a sales spike, but is distributed over time.
Probably more influential is Youtuber Alpha who showcases the game with the mod to his followers, who are then persuaded to buy the game for the mod in a large group, which is possibly visible in a sales graph.
It's also reasonable to assume that a mature game with several major and popular mods would be bought by new players specifically for the mod variety.

That's all possible, yeah. But I've never seen it actually shown anywhere. Almost every SP-focused game, moddable or not, has the same massive front-load and long, thinning tail distribution with all the subsequent spikes being DLCs or major content patches.

That's why I doubt modding has ever contributed (or will ever) to doubling sales numbers of high profile titles like Bannerlord. Warband, maybe, because it wasn't as high-visibility (although I remember seeing it on shelves in the NEX) but Bannerlord is something everyone knows about by now.

This is a different game than most.

It isnt, at least not as far as sales are concerned. Modding-wise is arguable. I personally thought (and still think) most mods played fairly close to Native, to the point where I could reliably use the same workshops (dyeworks) to build my economy theb raise a party around a similar troop type (heavy shock cav) that would then faceroll the sieges in the exact same way (just walk up the ramp and tab out for awhile).

But that's a subjective opinion and I know some people consider a fresh coat of paint to be a different experience, even if every underlying mechanic is the same.

 

[TheBerserk]

-100
This is so untrue. The only one who scrued up the game is TW. No player feedback can scrue up a game if the developers have clear vision.

except that Taleworlds has no clear vision

 

[Berzerker Jay]

except that Taleworlds has no clear vision

All this whiny slamming of Taleworlds. Obviously they have a vision, or else they wouldn't have this franchise of games and we wouldn't have so many people playing an early-access version of their next installment. You're obviously just sore about that vision, or about Taleworlds itself.

It's pathetic. What are you aiming for? Chip away at the morale of the dev team with stupid comments, so that maybe, just maybe, you can have the chance to interfere and become right?

Go play something else then, or know that you're seen as someone so sore but without the self-control to do something better with his life.

 

[Mad Vader]

Go play something else then, or know that you're seen as someone so sore but without the self-control to do something better with his life.

Ironic from a guy picking multiple pointless forum fights, it's almost as if projection was a thing.
BTW, there's a good argument that TW had lost its vision with Bannerlord some time ago, but I have something better to do than argue. brb

 

[Berzerker Jay]

Ironic from a guy picking multiple pointless forum fights, it's almost as if projection was a thing.
BTW, there's a good argument that TW had lost its vision with Bannerlord some time ago, but I have something better to do than argue. brb

I can't have an opinion about that criticism?

 

[TheBerserk]

All this whiny slamming of Taleworlds. Obviously they have a vision, or else they wouldn't have this franchise of games and we wouldn't have so many people playing an early-access version of their next installment. You're obviously just sore about that vision, or about Taleworlds itself.

It's pathetic. What are you aiming for? Chip away at the morale of the dev team with stupid comments, so that maybe, just maybe, you can have the chance to interfere and become right?

Go play something else then, or know that you're seen as someone so sore but without the self-control to do something better with his life.

So in your opinion any game that comes out has necessarily been made with a clear vision of things and without problems?

the fact that the devs have repeatedly revisited decisions on certain features of the game and its engine, or even completely changing certain elements of the game means that the development does not have clear visions on many things

ah and the only one who whines seems to me to be the one who finds no argumentative word and who becomes contemptuous

 

[Berzerker Jay]

So in your opinion any game that comes out has necessarily been made with a clear vision of things and without problems?

the fact that the devs have repeatedly revisited decisions on certain features of the game and its engine, or even completely changing certain elements of the game means that the development does not have clear visions on many things

ah and the only one who whines seems to me to be the one who finds no argumentative word and who becomes contemptuous

I never said that so I don't even get how that can be a sincere attempt to summarize my opinion.

Taleworlds earned my respect, and through successive games. I appreciate their development philosophy, as well as their commitment to the community. You will not see me giving the same respect to CDProjekt Red, for example, because I simply don't respect their development philosophy and I believe they put sales ahead of the game. They certainly got their sales, though they'll likely never be trusted by gamers again.

I don't know why you think the game mechanics being revisited and tinkered with -- even if entirely reworked -- indicates no vision, especially since one might think development might involve revisiting mechanics that aren't producing the vision you have for the game....

You have a negative opinion, and that's cool, but can you make it constructive by saying what you want? Do you really want no decision ever revisited? Even though you are getting early-access to a game that is in development, you want to hem in that development for what reason?