Modding VS Development

[Tryvenyal]

You can't just assume mods are stolen. When that actually happens, the original author makes a complaint which may or may not bring down the stolen stuff and its author. But most importantly, the issue becomes known in the player and modder community (who love drama).
Modders claim authorship just like anyone else publishing their stuff online by implicitly asserting "I made dis".

I don't assume anything. But what happens if someone complains agianst you in an attempt to steal your mod?

That works fine in the modding world - we don't need more "proof". If it looks like you did it, we are happy to accknowlege you over "pretenderModderX" who added it later and has no history on forums or Nexus. But if TW implement your mod, with your accknowledgement, and "pretenderModderX" makes a legal claim against them, how would you prove it is your mod? Or how do you prove it´s not his? You beeing first to upload on Nexus does not hold the line, I can promise. And you both share an equal burden to prove your ownership, in most courts in the world and he is likely better prepered than you. It´s very easy to decompile your mod and make it look like it was made somewhere else.

I´m just trying to say this small easy thing is not as easy as one would think and assume.

 

[Mad Vader]

I don't assume anything. But what happens if someone complains agianst you in an attempt to steal your mod?

That works fine in the modding world - we don't need more "proof". If it looks like you did it, we are happy to accknowlege you over "pretenderModderX" who added it later and has no history on forums or Nexus. But if TW implement your mod, with your accknowledgement, and "pretenderModderX" makes a legal claim against them, how would you prove it is your mod?

I´m just trying to say this small easy thing is not as easy as one would think and assume.

The burden of proof is on the one who complains you stole it, not on you.
The law generally works in a way that you are innocent until proven guilty and not in the way you imagine.

 

[Mad Vader]

Depends how he put it, ofc. But it can be a mess, both for you and for TW.

It rarely is, really.
Being on the modding scene for some time, I've seen that disputes like this are usually resolved quickly by banning thieves when thievery is easy to prove.

The problem area is usually art. Code is not usually stolen or copy pasted because you can write your own that does the same thing as some modder - the idea you can steal. For other resources like music and sounds, it's easy to determine if they are stolen.

Stolen models are easy to detect if they are unchanged (and this historically has happened, as most thieves are lazy), the problem is with derived works.
Modellers tend to start off from another model (that they like and it's usually not theirs) and make changes until they feel it's distinct enough. Then they may claim it's an original model or they may claim co-authorship if they merely made some tweaks - these claims MAY be problematic and subject to a dispute, legal or less formal.

 

[Tryvenyal]

Being on the modding scene for some time, I've seen that disputes like this are usually resolved quickly by banning thieves when thievery is easy to prove.

I don't understund how that should be easy to prove, if both parts gets to present their version? I somehow assume here its a community that takes on the roles of both judge and executioner. "Look, niceModderX has ahs been working and written dev-diaries for these models in 5 years. badModderY just arrives with a 'Hi! Look what I have done on my chamber the last five years' presenting the exaxt same thing. Ban him."

BadModderY is likely a thief. But he is not proven a thief, There is a small small not considered risk that NiceModderX is actually the thief.

 

[danEN]

Hi guys, I have a quick question about modding. Now I am not a modder nor am I a game designer, don't know anything of these things. However, what I do know is, why are modders making the game soooo much better than the base game? Do modders have an advantage when modding the game? Why can't TW's 'use' these mods in their game, or design it in a similar way? Why can't the modding community and TW's work together?

Taleworlds management and that's it. they're forcing the game to be completely accessible to new audiences for the most income, which in turn limits the game incredibly

 

[Mad Vader]

I don't understund how that should be easy to prove, if both parts gets to present their version? I somehow assume here its a community that takes on the roles of both judge and executioner. "Look, niceModderX has ahs been working and written dev-diaries for these models in 5 years. badModderY just arrives with a 'Hi! Look what I have done on my chamber the last five years' presenting the exaxt same thing. Ban him."

BadModderY is likely a thief. But he is not proven a thief, There is a small small not considered risk that NiceModderX is actually the thief.

In your case, it's obvious who gets taken down.
But the whole way of thinking about this is flawed. What if a TW employee is a potential thief? Better not do anything or you could be wrongfully accused of theft.
Modders are not some kind of thieving unreliable Gypsies that can't be trusted to produce original content, and no one should deal with them really. Their work speaks for them and Taleworlds could easily try to buy their stuff if they want to have it. They probably don't want to because they don't want to deal with contractors and most devs don't even know what mods exist. Remember that they don't play their own game to notice things that are obvious to players.
If Taleworlds were serious about developing the best game they could, they would follow the modding scene and buy the good stuff to incorporate into the game or would straight up copy popular features. This somehow doesn't happen.

 

[RitoDurito]

They "can" implement mods ofcause. But I don't think them not doing so is mainly pride.

If they implement mods just like nothing, many modders would likely have split feelings about it. But also a bit of theft unless they get recognition for it.
Another issue is a legal aspect. Who owns the mod? It´s creaters ofc but anyone can claim to be a creator. Who can prove it? It´s easy to set it up to make it legally impossible to disprove that your claim is right.

Didn't they impletment the tournament icons from a mod? They're not against it entirely, seems to come down how it's implemented and if there's a risk of causing further issues, such as the seige fix mod is part of a larger issue with the ai.

Id rather they'd finish the base game before trying to implement any larger mod.

 

[Ser Jon]

I think TW has been in development hell for so long that all their employees lost interest years ago. Now it's just a job to them, no passion whatsoever.

I'm still holding out that it is leadership that is the problem.

 

[Lucon]

Of course Modders!

 

[Roy1012]

I'm still holding out that it is leadership that is the problem.

It’s truly a sad state of affairs when the best course of action/path of least resistance is hoping the leadership is incompetent. Unfortunately, I don’t see a better alternative.

 

[Danny5]

It’s truly a sad state of affairs when the best course of action/path of least resistance is hoping the leadership is incompetent. Unfortunately, I don’t see a better alternative.

TW's need to put in more focus points in leadership, they have too many charm skills now.

 

[Ser Jon]

It’s truly a sad state of affairs when the best course of action/path of least resistance is hoping the leadership is incompetent. Unfortunately, I don’t see a better alternative.

Yea, neither is a win, I'd honestly prefer it to be bad because of leadership and not because the entire development team has lost interest in it or is simply making it for $$$$.

 

[Butterflies-In-My_belly]

why are modders making the game soooo much better than the base game?

Better: that's debatable. Modders wouldn't have anything to mod if the Devs didn't create the game and its components in the first place.

Do modders have an advantage when modding the game?

Yes. No overheads, generally no employees to pay and supervise, no legal team and legal constraints.

TW's 'use' these mods in their game, or design it in a similar way?

I think it has to do with the laws and also, modders are from many different countries and the laws aren't uniformly applied all over the world. The legalities alone would be a nightmare.

Why can't the modding community and TW's work together?

Because Taleworlds is a corporation or at least a business and they would legally have to pay the modders for their work but Taleworlds already has employees and having other people work on the same aspects of the game ( for free ) isn't the headache that Taleworlds needs.
Just my humble opinions.
Note: those are my opinions and in no way reflect Taleworlds' position on any of them.

 

[Mad Vader]

Better: that's debatable. Modders wouldn't have anything to mod if the Devs didn't create the game and its components in the first place.

That's a straw man, no one claims that modders would have made a better base game. But they would develop better gameplay on top of the base battle simulator and overworld.

Yes. No overheads, generally no employees to pay and supervise, no legal team and legal constraints.

"Modders are better off because no one pays them" lol.

I think it has to do with the laws and also, modders are from many different countries and the laws aren't uniformly applied all over the world. The legalities alone would be a nightmare.

"I don't know how to write a contract, and therefore no one else does."
No, it's standard practice to subcontract individuals from around the world and Taleworlds do this. There are no problems with this, you are just making up stuff.

Because Taleworlds is a corporation or at least a business and they would legally have to pay the modders for their work but Taleworlds already has employees and having other people work on the same aspects of the game ( for free ) isn't the headache that Taleworlds needs.
Just my humble opinions.

It's not a problem to have people work voluntarily for you, you don't even have to legalize the relationship. You keep inventing problems and you don't sound informed.

Note: those are my opinions and in no way reflect Taleworlds' position on any of them.

This only makes sense if you are a Taleworlds employee. You are either one or are a bit clueless.

 

[Tryvenyal]

But the whole way of thinking about this is flawed. What if a TW employee is a potential thief? Better not do anything or you could be wrongfully accused of theft.
Modders are not some kind of thieving unreliable Gypsies that can't be trusted to produce original content, and no one should deal with them really.

Wait, is that how you are reading me? what I mean is that modders are very unprotected and neglected. Modders are models of bravery among which I for one have no place. Which is the reason my mods never reach the scene. I´m too affraid to be accused for robbery by a fraudster.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

I don't understund how that should be easy to prove, if both parts gets to present their version? I somehow assume here its a community that takes on the roles of both judge and executioner. "Look, niceModderX has ahs been working and written dev-diaries for these models in 5 years. badModderY just arrives with a 'Hi! Look what I have done on my chamber the last five years' presenting the exaxt same thing. Ban him."

BadModderY is likely a thief. But he is not proven a thief, There is a small small not considered risk that NiceModderX is actually the thief.

99.9999999999999999999% of the time, if someone tries to pass off someone else's work as their own, they are really sloppy about trying to prove it's theirs, and always end up deleting their own accounts when anyone has the slightest inkling that they're lying. These people are pussies. By far the most elaborate scam I've ever seen in any modding community is where someone photoshopped screenshots of DMs I sent them, and pretended I had given them permission to take a bunch of assets from my own mod another mod I had no involvement with. The spelling was awful, everyone called them out immediately, and they left within a day.

Me and MadVader have been part of this modding community for years. Trust me when I saw that it is really, really easy to spot mod theft, and that the chance of someone getting away with it (in the Solomon scenario like you described) in any modding community where people know each other is basically zero.

 

[Butterflies-In-My_belly]

That's a straw man, no one claims that modders would have made a better base game. But they would develop better gameplay on top of the base battle simulator and overworld.

"Modders are better off because no one pays them" lol.

"I don't know how to write a contract, and therefore no one else does."
No, it's standard practice to subcontract individuals from around the world and Taleworlds do this. There are no problems with this, you are just making up stuff.

It's not a problem to have people work voluntarily for you, you don't even have to legalize the relationship. You keep inventing problems and you don't sound informed.

This only makes sense if you are a Taleworlds employee. You are either one or are a bit clueless.

You come off rather confrontational for someone who doesn't even know who I am. What happened in your life that you have to bite people's heads off? Not held enough as a child? Sweetheart dumped you? LOL... C'mon, you can confess to me, I swear I won't repeat the source of your frustrations ❤ C'mere, I'll give you a hug ?

 

[Askorti]

You come off rather confrontational for someone who doesn't even know who I am. What happened in your life that you have to bite people's heads off? Not held enough as a child? Sweetheart dumped you? LOL... C'mon, you can confess to me, I swear I won't repeat the source of your frustrations ❤ C'mere, I'll give you a hug ?

well that's a very constructive contribution to the discussion...

 

[Mad Vader]

You come off rather confrontational for someone who doesn't even know who I am. What happened in your life that you have to bite people's heads off? Not held enough as a child? Sweetheart dumped you? LOL... C'mon, you can confess to me, I swear I won't repeat the source of your frustrations ❤ C'mere, I'll give you a hug ?

If you have nothing to say, better don't say anything. If you can't take criticism for your public claims, stay off the internet.

 

[Butterflies-In-My_belly]

If you have nothing to say, better don't say anything

Maybe you should follow your own advice instead of trying to get a rise out of new forum members. What did you contribute by trying to push my non-existent buttons? Nothing, that's what, nix, zero, nada ?