Mod releases and stuff - Dain's discussion.

[Dain Ironfoot]

The original poster of this thread was pretty rude about presenting his opinion, and it quickly devolved into "My mod is better than your mod!" and resulted in a locked thread of snarky comments. But I want to give my viewpoint on this subject.

Releasing early and releasing often is definitely the best policy with regards to modding. It's the best way to gather support and attention. We all know this. There are two things that stop it happening like it should, lack of team members and a modders ego.

Lack of team members is an easy one, and largely happens to people like me who can model but can't code enough to get a basic release out. Easily dealt with, either your learn how to do everything on a mod or you find someone to help you.

Ego is a far bigger problem.

In our heart of hearts, what we want to do is get a release out. However, there are a lot of mods out there. How will you get your mod to stand out from the rest? Polish and content. These things take time.

Really you still want to get a version out, even if it's buggy and empty it'll get a little attention and a few downloads.

Generally though, few of us are happy releasing a half finished product. We're worried about the reflection on ourselves, we're worried about turning people off later versions due to bugginess. We're worried about not standing out from the crowd. So we wait and we work, and occasionally give media releases and sometimes this can work. More often than not, interest will drain away and the mod has a fair chance of dying, meaning loads of work goes to waste. We've all seen it so many times. The other thing that happens while your in this state is that you build up hype and expectation.

Hype and expectation are good, they motivate us. People are excited to play what we created!

Uh-oh though, my mod better live up to the expectations or people are going to be disappointed! Cancel that early beta, we'd better add a bunch more stuff first.

Once again, this has a very small chance of actually producing something playable. Before we know it we fall into feature creep and team members have left leaving work half finished and oh dear, the end of the universe is come. And we still haven't released anything.

So while it's easy to say "Mods should be honest and transparent, release often, show progress all the time, try and have a release date" and the mods which do manage to do it often do exceptionally well (pretty good description of this formula being used succesfully here: http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2010/08/03/three-moves-ahead-episode-76-modding-strategy-games/) it is much, MUCH harder to do it in reality. It has the potential to stop being fun. And our hobby should be fun.

Ta.

 

[Peralta]

I partially agree with you, but there's 1 factor you've left out of sight; the inane pain in the ass that is called real life.
I'm seeing it up close myself right now, since about 80% of my mod team isn't as active as during the past months, due to real life (mainly the start of the new schoolyear).

An excellent example of "modders' ego", as you put it, is 1866.
They produced an excellent mod, released a couple of updates and now it's been 10 months since the last release.
People have high expectations, and the 1866 team wants to meet or even better, surpass those expectations.
Your "modder's ego" is nothing more than the same old peer pressure we experience in our every day life imo

 

[Dain Ironfoot]

Lack of time goes without saying, but that falls into the ego category and the lack of team members category. You could release what you have and therefore attract more team members or you could learn and do more stuff yourself.

And there is no way I'm naming other peoples mods here, that's exactly what caused unpleasantness in the last thread. I could name a few of my old ambitious projects like Rhovanion Alliance and indeed my current mod as examples.

 

[Peralta]

Lack of time goes without saying, but that falls into the ego category and the lack of team members category. You could release what you have and therefore attract more team members or you could learn and do more stuff yourself.

And there is no way I'm naming other peoples mods here, that's exactly what caused unpleasantness in the last thread. I could name a few of my old ambitious projects like Rhovanion Alliance and indeed my current mod as examples.

The other mod went bad because some people can't restrain themselves from using themselves as perfect examples of how everyone else should do it.

I only illustrate my additions to this debate with mods to make it easier to understand

 

[Ruthven]

I obviously can't speak for everybody, but I know that one of my main reasons for taking so long to release things is that when I'm most of the way through finishing something, I get another idea that is in theory child's play to implement. I do the majority of the work on that, then another idea pops up, etc.

 

[Dain Ironfoot]

I obviously can't speak for everybody, but I know that one of my main reasons for taking so long to release things is that when I'm most of the way through finishing something, I get another idea that is in theory child's play to implement. I do the majority of the work on that, then another idea pops up, etc.

Yup, feature creep. We all have to fight it.

 

[Astropuyo]

I partially agree with you, but there's 1 factor you've left out of sight; the inane pain in the ass that is called real life.
I'm seeing it up close myself right now, since about 80% of my mod team isn't as active as during the past months, due to real life (mainly the start of the new schoolyear).

An excellent example of "modders' ego", as you put it, is 1866.
They produced an excellent mod, released a couple of updates and now it's been 10 months since the last release.
People have high expectations, and the 1866 team wants to meet or even better, surpass those expectations.
Your "modder's ego" is nothing more than the same old peer pressure we experience in our every day life imo

@ the Bold: Seriously bro, every time I start to work on a new scene or adding pipes/machines to my mod I get a call to go do real life stuff. I get all excited because I'm nearing alpha stages , just about to release some news, screens,lore,game play aspects and BAM

"Hey can you go mow the lawn, Hey can you do this and that?"


Real life is a serious kill to us modders. It's not like we're getting paid to release mods, we're doing it to give everyone else fun and chances are this is how we play games (We make em! It is a game to us to make mods; atleast it is to me)

So people should remember we're not professional devs we don't have accurate project time tables because we've RL to deal with first and foremost.

 

[QuailLover]

I enjoy making mods...simple as that. Though most of them are indeed personal mods, and I wouldn't release them, because its things like, adding my friends in as companions, (thus full of private jokes that no one would get).

But I've been slowly working on my Moonstone mod that I started years ago.
I don't care about hype, I never update the thread usually, and if I actually sit down and work on it for more than a half an hour a month it could probably been released by now. I just enjoy fiddling around with it.

One day though my Moonstone mod is going to be released...one day. But not anytime soon. Because, hell I don't know if I loose interest again for another few months, or get bogged down by homework, or if I work on my other brain child mod (the San Quentin one).

 

[Astropuyo]

Hehe I've been working on a mod for a year or so , I've yet to talk about it, release anything related,etc.
Why?

Hype is a killer. It can be a major let down. One thing I learned from working CS at a certain game company that shall remain un named.... Never hype when you cannot possibly do anything to release it on time.

I figure one day I'm just going to post a dozen screenies, a few pages of lore,etc,etc and see how it goes from there.


All in all I've modded for fun. I alter peoples mods to fit my style. I have never played native past day 200 because of my modding addiction.

 

[bjorne.]

I love you, Dain

 

[Josef_the_Pretender]

Releasing early and releasing often is definitely the best policy with regards to modding. It's the best way to gather support and attention. We all know this. There are two things that stop it happening like it should, lack of team members and a modders ego.

The distinction should probably be made between new mods awaiting their first release, and more established mods releasing new versions. For example, PoP releases once a year or so, but they have no trouble attracting a massive team. Maybe that’s too specific an example (and it falls into the ‘Fantasy’ category, which like LOTR and Star Wars will naturally attract more attention than historical, or ‘Calradian’ mods), and again, your point is probably aimed at new unreleased mods and the difficulty in generating interest in them.

Lack of team members is an easy one, and largely happens to people like me who can model but can't code enough to get a basic release out. Easily dealt with, either your learn how to do everything on a mod or you find someone to help you.

Ego is a far bigger problem.

In our heart of hearts, what we want to do is get a release out. However, there are a lot of mods out there. How will you get your mod to stand out from the rest? Polish and content. These things take time.

Really you still want to get a version out, even if it's buggy and empty it'll get a little attention and a few downloads.

Generally though, few of us are happy releasing a half finished product. We're worried about the reflection on ourselves, we're worried about turning people off later versions due to bugginess. We're worried about not standing out from the crowd. So we wait and we work, and occasionally give media releases and sometimes this can work. More often than not, interest will drain away and the mod has a fair chance of dying, meaning loads of work goes to waste. We've all seen it so many times. The other thing that happens while your in this state is that you build up hype and expectation.

Hype and expectation are good, they motivate us. People are excited to play what we created!

Uh-oh though, my mod better live up to the expectations or people are going to be disappointed! Cancel that early beta, we'd better add a bunch more stuff first.

I agree and disagree. I agree that nobody wants to release a half finished product, but I disagree that ego becomes a stumbling block. We should make the mod to the highest standard we can with the tools and people available. If it isn’t at the standard we require, don’t release it until we’re happy. Having said that, we have to be realistic about what is possible and not prolong the thing indefinitely. In the case of a mod with a small team, we need to do what we can – if a modeller or a sceneist is needed but isn’t forthcoming, then I’d consider it acceptable to release the mod at that point, as long as the existing team members have reached the point where they are happy with what they were able to do alone. In that case, we’d be justified in hoping that the existing quality would be high enough, and that there would be enough content to attract peoples attention and perhaps then you could enlist your scenist or modeller.

I don’t necessarily subscribe to the view that you need to constantly advertise your mod as it is being created. I think you should throw a few things out there, but I wouldn’t have much hope for attracting quality help by that method. Most people who are able to do things are likely involved in their own project. That’s a big assumption on my part and could be entirely wrong, of course. I haven’t built a mod from scratch.

I’d rather subscribe to the idea of getting the mod to a certain point, where you’re happy with the standard of work done so far, and then releasing. This can then be supported by screenshots in the screenshots thread, funky banner advertising, fanfic or other competitions etc. I would say that this phase would outweigh any effects of trying to generate interest as you’re developing the mod.  But then again, I’m a bit of a noob in this area. 

Once again, this has a very small chance of actually producing something playable. Before we know it we fall into feature creep and team members have left leaving work half finished and oh dear, the end of the universe is come. And we still haven't released anything.

Which is a damn shame, so it’s important to set some kind of realistic targets where a release would show off what has been done. What’s the worst that could happen?

It has the potential to stop being fun. And our hobby should be fun.

I find the Fun to Tedious Nonsense ratio is about 20:80 myself. Still, that 20 makes it worth doing. 

 

[N0ught]

I would just like to point out that I mentioned no mods specifically in the other thread, until people jumped up to defend theirs, perfectly illustrating what I was talking about. Then there were gross misrepresentations of my own mods, which required correction. Then I was quoted out of context to make me look bad.

So I locked the thread, due to hostility. It never ceases to amaze me how quickly people will cover up facts with falsehoods, and how readily the falsehoods are accepted. I am learning in life that people would rather die with a pretty lie than live with the uncomfortable truth. Well, I'm a heretic, what can I say.

Anyway, I understand lack of time. It is the biggest mod killer out there. But I guess my point was it doesn't take very long to take some screenshots, and at LEAST show what you've been working on occasionally. Certain mods, which will remain nameless, haven't even done that much for their fans in months or years.

The fact that people even take the time to post about your mod should be taken into consideration, and appreciated. They are showing their support. Beyond that there may even be good suggestions from the fanbase, but this "we're not listening to ANY of your suggestions, sorry, we're better than you are" attitude is ridiculous. People want to see that their support is not being taken for granted. Threatening to push the release date back when someone asks whats happening on the project doesn't exactly convey that kind of appreciation...

 

[Dain Ironfoot]

We're not discussing individuals attitudes here. That's your own thing. Start your own thread.

 

[N0ught]

The original poster of this thread was pretty rude about presenting his opinion,

I disagree. And besides, the forum language blocker can censor me - you cannot. This is a forum for discussion, and I am staying relatively on subject. I'm not going to argue semantics.

But I do agree with several other points you made. I think the biggest problem with "life expectancy" of mods is the tendency to take on too much at once. I personally tend to concentrate on what I already know how to do, get that done, and then learn what I need to implement other things. The entire mod-making process is a learning exercise - there is seldom a situation one encounters while modding where one thinks "ah, I know exactly how to do this". It's most often a "let's see if this will work" situation - and it usually doesn't, requiring numerous revisions.

And I think that is what people need to keep in mind: don't reach too far with what you plan to do. Be reasonable about what you can accomplish. Release info based on things you know you can accomplish - I think too many people make HUGE promises, and then feel they have to fulfill them instead of simply saying "oops, I dun goofed! I bit off more than I could chew and I need to re-evaluate my goals here". Losing a battle doesn't mean you lost the war, and you aren't going to lose face if you admit things aren't going like you planned. In fact, I have received more support from my "mod minions" during those times than any other.

No mod is an island.

 

[QuailLover]

By the way the "Nameless Mod" came out with it's usual batch of screenshots, it does every few months.

NOught, there are some things that you just can't show screen shots of.

 

[xenoargh]

there are some things that you just can't show screen shots of

Which is when you write about it. 

Major new features aren't that hard to document.  The dull grind which is at the core of all the major creative undertakings, if written about candidly, opens a door to the public, and it's a lot less lame-sounding than "trust us, we're awesome".  Hell, I generally find that talking out loud about it and hearing what people have to say is genuinely useful- if for no other reason than to understand whether my prejudices are based on solid ground or a foundation of sand.

I understand that there's nothing that seems less interesting than, "today, we rebuilt the entry points for 30 scenes to support our nifty new feature X" or "this week, our guy Rinderpest finished the AI meshes for the City of Naked Horrors, so that AI troops can finally figure out how to move around it while the player attempts to rescue the Princess from the MacGuffin"... but from the public's perspective, that's progress, and my experience has been that people do, indeed, like to know what's going on, even when it's seemingly trivial.

 

[Yoshiboy]

I agree with OP.

I've both released my own fair share of mods (see Fishmod Original, Pirates Original, Hunt) and had others fail (see rpgmod and Pirates mk2).

I'd by lying if I said any of these projects weren't heavily concerned with my ego. And take a look at my newest one - the biggest yet

But I also agree with OP's final point.

It has the potential to stop being fun. And our hobby should be fun.

Unfortunately my ego is so large it consumes the M&B community - I don't really create mods for anyone but myself. When I'm lying in bed at night I'm not thinking about the next release, or even the next batch of screenshots I'm going to put out. I'm thinking about how I'm going to add in the next awesome feature. Unfortunately I don't think I would be motivated to even start if I wasn't trying to make the next biggest best thing.

I don't think my approach is the best, or very healthy , but (without being big-headed ), from the number of projects I've worked on now, I do think I have a chance of actually landing the next one.

A couple more specific cases:



Pirates mk2 was fairly set on being finished, but some of the work-arounds I'd done accumulated and made the whole thing unplayable. To be more specific at that point there was no burst command for particles - so all my particles were sitting at the bottom of the ocean eating up GPU, then I would suddenly move them to the position of the cannons on the ship, and the computer REALLY didn't like that. Removing technical problems like that, Pirates would probably have been released no problem.

In this case it was my initial ego that ruined it.



RPGmod was a bit of a different case. I was beginning to get burnt out, but I was also very close to finishing. Well over half way. In the end what happened was that new versions of M&B implemented new features and I wanted to use these for new good ideas that I had so bad that I went back and implemented new things using them. The more new stuff I added, the more new ideas I had, until it just ruined it for the whole project.

So this time it was not being able to hold my ego back.



Both of these I released anyway, but they were almost so buggy as to be unplayable so it felt pretty hollow.

 

[Merlkir]

I don't think my approach is the best, or very healthy , but (without being big-headed ), from the number of projects I've worked on now, I do think I have a chance of actually landing the next one.

colour me curious, which one is that?

 

[xenoargh]

You haven't read the last 3 pages of the Fishmod thread

 

[Kazzan]

Fishmod/Pirates! Link here: OOh Shamonah!
More info on SP on page 24, link here: Linkey