Mod Idea - [MP] Commander Battle

[Narthir]

I came up with what I thought to be a great idea today for a mod:

Commander MP Mod. In this mod two commanders are put in command of two armies of bots and must use tactics to defeat the other side. It would be very similar to two armies fighting in single player except there are two human commanders. This is already able to be done on a server with bots enabled and two players on opposing sides, but I had some thoughts on how this could be greatly improved using a mod.

Some improvements I had in mind include:

-Ability to spend gold on troop equipment before each round
-More formations (possibly using existing mods)
-Ability to spend gold (or other currency/point system) on different troop types
        (Ex. You are given 100 men, can spend on infantry, archers, or cavalry in any combination)
-Enable more bots in MP (something like 200 vs 200 at most since alot of computers can't handle more)
-If possible, having a chain of command (1 leader for infantry, 1 for archers, etc.. all reporting to main commander)
-New custom maps

This list is just what I came up with today, so any and all suggestions are welcome.

I am NOT a modder, this is just a suggestion for any modders who want to take the idea. I think this would offer a new kind of fun and interesting combat to the already exciting MP scene 

~Narthir

 

[Mr.X]

Maybe post in the mod section too.

 

[Narthir]

Like post it there instead? I haven't really seen a mod suggestion place, so I just posted in general. I apologize, wasn't quite sure where this article would fit 

 

[Fraemi]

Wouldnt work well at all.
Ridiculous setups like all archers/all cav would counter other setups to the point of it being rock paper scissors, with cav still being gods. All units of one type also fit into 1 group and as you probably realize - m&b isnt a realistic simulator of battles, at best one of small skirmishes.
AI still doesnt know how to use pikes well and best strategy most of the time would be "camp the highest hill with ranged troops".

Just play the total war series.

 

[Rend]

Dont worry, since it is MP related I think it fits fine in this section. But as Mr X said, maby it would be good if you posted/linked this thread in the mod-forum aswell.

I like the idea. Have been entertaining similar thoughts myself. Think it could be cool.

Dont really understand the criticism from Fraemi.
As TS said in the OP you would buy your troops and their equipment in a cash/points-system. Then it comes down to balance in prices. If cav and archers are that good, then the cost for them would be accordingly.
Also if both commanders have the same troop setup, would they both be OP at the same time? Kinda seems they would even eachother out, dont you think?

The AI isnt perfect, true. But could still be a cool mod imo.

 

[looy]

Can't you do this already. Set up a 1v1 game, then add 50 bots to each side. Though I suppose you want to pick your armies etc...

 

[doomsayer]

The problem is just with the terrible ai and the not very streamlined ui you couldn't make complex strategies like a TW game does (not that these are very complicated strategy games in any case, more a sort of rinse and repeat your main move)...

 

[Fraemi]

Dont really understand the criticism from Fraemi.
As TS said in the OP you would buy your troops and their equipment in a cash/points-system. Then it comes down to balance in prices. If cav and archers are that good, then the cost for them would be accordingly.
Also if both commanders have the same troop setup, would they both be OP at the same time? Kinda seems they would even eachother out, dont you think?

The AI isnt perfect, true. But could still be a cool mod imo.

Even if it is "balanced" by higher prices for cav/archers it still doesnt ignore the fact that in sp 20 knights/mamlukes can tear apart 60+ of top infantry, maybe apart from huscarls. The AI is simply so bad that pikes/spears and especially spears/shields are worthless for troops with the AI.
And on a flat map you still cant give your troops meaningful orders since all units of 1 type can be treated as 1 unit AT BEST.
Terrain is very important and on random maps one player would get ****ed immediately to the point of no return.
If its a completely FLAT then you still ignore that it is very, very boring and impossible to give complex, coherent orders.

Seriously, this is just a bother to make and you should still play some total war series game.
Think about how complex are your orders in SP. And as someone pointed out you can already add bots to both sides and have a player command them (apart from equip. and such).

 

[Narthir]

Yeah, the 50 bot idea is already implemented in Native MP, but I think that additions to help make commanding more fun might be good for a mod. As for the imbalanced combinations of troops, perhaps set a limit on how many of each type there can be or (as I would prefer) try rebalancing troop stats so that cavalry wasn't as OP against a full infantry army (possibly by lessening horse hitpoints or having the ability to equip your troops only with polearms). Total War wouldn't as I would plan because with this mod you would be able to quickly change equipment/troop spread between rounds easily and, perhaps more importantly, you can influence the battle through your own combat skills as well.

Again, this is just a thought for a mod, maybe it isn't worth spending time on if the majority would find Total War games to serve the same function. However I believe that it would be really cool to see and would use M&B's awesome combat system to form a new challenge of tactics and strategy.

(PS I think I'll post a link in the mod forums)

 

[Fraemi]

...you can influence the battle through your own combat skills as well
...however I believe that it would be really cool to see and would use M&B's awesome combat system to form a new challenge of tactics and strategy

Well no offense but by "influencing the battle yourself" you can always go horse-archer, pick 3 quivers of arrows+bow, solo kill at least 20~ish enemies if not more (enemy archers cant lead shots, so you circle them from a fair distance) and afterwards salavage some melee weapon or better yet a lance and begin the mop-up procedure. Vs bots its very very simple to get 50+ kills on high tier troops if you are a horsearcher or a lancer w/ a good horse.
And you remove the whole "commander" aspect if you fight yourself since you cant do those at the same time, I initially thought that the mod was meant to be only as a commander style mod without the player on the field.

Also, m&b combat system is bad for large scale combat and the AI only makes it worse.
The m&b combat system however really shines in 1v1 and in small team combat (Id say ~12 players for a team but it depends). If you need proof that its bad for 50v50 I think you can already guess what server to go on and what to expect.

 

[Spec]

I'd love a mod that balances troop types for this style of game. With good balancing, the overpowered cavalry problem could be solved - one part of the balance would be unit cost, making heavy knights simply rare.

 

[Narthir]

That is a very good point that people could just go horse archer or lancer and rack up kills. Perhaps this issue can be resolved by keeping combat skills on the commanders set relatively low to prevent a one man army. I don't think it would be too difficult to reduce horse archers if the riding skill wasn't set too high and the horse archery skill set to 0. I have also seen bows disabled on horseback in the persistent world mod.

Also, I think since both commanders are human players, if one went on a killing spree the other could go fight the enemy commander himself. If commanders couldn't fight I think the mod would end up like a simplified total war game.

 

[Assassinator1097]

With the proper money balancing, etc, you're not going to have 60 Swadian Knights versus 60 Sarranid Tribesmen. I.e. if it's balanced properly their small amount of cavalry could be countered by telling your infantry to stand closer four times.

 

[Spec]

It should also be possible to make the game more balanced troop-wise. For example, instead of just having infantry, archers and cavalry to command, the commander could for example place pikemen behind a shieldwall by making an unique pikeman troop type. If the enemy goes all-cav, a good mix of archers, pikemen and melee fighters should be able to stop it if horses get their health reduced a bit and other changes.

Basically, change the game so that one can only win with a good mix of troops.

 

[Rend]

Well no offense but by "influencing the battle yourself" you can always go horse-archer, pick 3 quivers of arrows+bow, solo kill at least 20~ish enemies if not more (enemy archers cant lead shots, so you circle them from a fair distance) and afterwards salavage some melee weapon or better yet a lance and begin the mop-up procedure. Vs bots its very very simple to get 50+ kills on high tier troops if you are a horsearcher or a lancer w/ a good horse.

Also, I think since both commanders are human players, if one went on a killing spree the other could go fight the enemy commander himself. If commanders couldn't fight I think the mod would end up like a simplified total war game.

Exactly.
I dont see the problem that Fraemi describes, that as a player you could just butcher the dum bots left and right.
There will be another player in there against you, remember. If you try to run circles around the enemy archers untill they're out of arrows, he can simply command his troop to "hold your fire". Or ride down and fight you himself. Or bring a group of npc's with him to get the advantage when he fights you... And then you'd have pretty much what is intended in the first place: A battle where both your skill as a player and as commander will determine the outcome.

The fact that there will be another player on the other side, commanding the enemy troops will make the battle much less glitchy and voulnerable to exploit tactics, compared to the singleplayer version.

As I said, I like this idea. Think it could be good fun if it was done well.

And really, trying to argue that it wont work because chav, archery or whatever WILL be op isnt really valid. That's just a matter of balancing it right. You cant say before hand that it will fail.

 

[Rend]

For me, an interesting thing to think about is when will the battle end?
When the enemy commander dies?
When all his troops are dead?
Will there be the option to tab and retreat/forefit? (I definately think this option should be available.)

 

[Narthir]

Hmm.. I think that things would work best if the battle ended once the entire army was killed, with a deathcam type option for just viewing but not commanding if dead. If it ended when the commander died, then battles could end unfairly with a random shot killing the commander and ending the battle. Without the commander, however, troops are in disorder because they receive no new orders and there is a huge disadvantage (realistically, if a commander is no longer able to command, the troops are more disorganized/morale goes down).

Also, I think that there might be an issue of how to operate servers using this mod. If there are only two commanders in the match, then the server size would only be something like 2 people, and it would be costly to maintain enough dedicated servers for all these matches. One possible solution would be that if you wanted to play a match, you would host a server for this mod and those seeking matches could look on the server list to join. Another solution could involve making each match have several commanders on each team, each managing different troops. To make this possible you would have to change the bot code so that more players in the server wouldn't dramatically reduce the bot number and find a way to assign commanders effectively.

 

[Scarf Ace]

I approve of this idea.

I've done something like this with a buddy of mine, it was a load of fun even with just 50 bots per side and a rather obvious imbalance in the different troop types and factions that native has. A purpose-made, balanced mod with additional command options and a few servers (with every player being the commander of their own little unit) would be a huge amount of fun. There were even some funny things that SP warband didn't have that we could use, like tricking the enemy archers into shooting their buddies' backs

Also, in Native when the commander of the troops dies they either join another player or if there's no players left alive, they suicidally charge in.

Edit: So about the mod, here are some small ideas:

Give a higher variety of troops:
Multiple sorts of melee units, 1 handers, 2 hander, spearmen.
Ranged troops should be bow/xbow and throwing weapons. (Throwers with their high rate of fire and heavy damage could cause huge damage in an enemy's flank very quickly, they'd also be more competent in melee.)

Make sure that all factions are balanced, but give the factions superior versions of some classes:
Swadia: Cavalry, 1 hand infantry
Vaegirs: Archers, Cavalry
Rhodoks: Crossbowmen, Spearmen
Nords: 2 hand axemen, Axe throwers
Khergits: Well, they have those bloody horse archers
Sarranids: Cavalry, Jarid Throwers

 

[Narthir]

^ This is exactly what I had in mind when I started this thread.

I also think that perhaps you could take the mod in the direction of each player having his own squad of 5 or so npcs that the player can equip/balance any way they see fit (using gold). It wouldn't exactly be a commander mod but it would be more of a squad based version of Native, with the ability to upgrade your squad. Personally I think that idea would be better suited as a completely separate mod due to less of commanding and more squad based combat. Does sound fun though

 

[Scarf Ace]

I got bored and thought of "troop trees" for the factions, with each faction having their more powerful troops. In theory, this would be balanced enough I think.
All regular troops wear padded cloth/leather armor normally. The "*" means they're above the "average" in terms of effectiveness.

Swadia
Swordsman (*Heavy kite shield, mail armor)
Spearman
Heavy Swordsman
Skirmisher
Crossbowman (No shield!)
Knight (*Great lance, mail armor, Hunter horse)

Vaegirs
Swordsman
Spearman
Skirmisher
Archer (*Warbow, bardiche)
Infantry
Knight (*Mail armor, elite scimitar, Hunter horse)

Nords
Warrior
Huscarl (*Mail armor, great axe)
Spearman
Axe Thrower (*3 sets of throwing axes and a shield)
Archer
Rider

Rhodoks
Infantry
Pikeman (*Pike, mail armor. Unlike other spear units, they also have a backup pick to go with their shield)
Sergeant
Mounted Crossbowman (Hell why not! Uses a light crossbow, a cheap sword and shield and rides a saddle horse. Not actually very powerful.)
Sharpshooter (*Siege Crossbow, board shield)
Javelin thrower

Khergits
Infantry
Spearman
Dismounted Archer
Mounted Skirmisher (*2 sets of javelins, sabre and shield, steppe horse. )
Lancer
Horse Archer (*Khergit bow, steppe horse, sabre and shield.)

Sarranids
Infantry
Archer
Spearman (bamboo spear)
Maceman (2 handed mace)
Skirmisher (*3 sets of jarids and shield. Has a less powerful weapon than the nord equivalent, but more range)
Mameluke (*Mail armor, Elite cav shield, Courser)


Man, I really want someone to step up and make such a mod, it would be loads of fun.