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MOD ANNOUNCEMENT: Bronze and Blood-Children of Olympus.

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Feragorn

Marquis
M&BWBNW
All I want is some proof that you're an authority on the Iliad.

Some published papers maybe, along with a picture that you couldn't just pull of the internet and an educational link.

Not that difficult.
 

Nordous

Sergeant Knight
The description impressed me - actually, this mode seems to claim to be as great, as Brytenwalda, according to the planned features. :grin: Thus it's most likely to be great!

And I love your armoury so far. Hope the texturing will be as decent, as the models themselves, and armours of that quality must be astonishing!

Good luck, devotion and inspiration to you.
 

typen

Recruit
Bump out of immense interest. We need more Bronze Age mods here.

Reading the thread gave me quite an erection
 

Kvedulf

Sergeant Knight
Just so y'all know, this mod is moving slower than a paraplegic sloth.  It isn't dead, but to put things into perspective, I've done half a model in the past month.  Uni work comes first, so it'll be quite some time before I can really get back into working on this.

Don't worry though, I have about a week's reprieve at the moment, so might be able to get some work done.

Thanks again for the support.

Cheers
Kvedulf
 

Kvedulf

Sergeant Knight
Hmm...it's been a while.

I'd just like to let you all know that, contrary to all obvious evidence, Bronze and Blood is not dead.  It's just been in a coma for the past five months.  However there are signs of life.  Now that my thesis is back on track, I'm on top of my coursework and my personal life has gone back to being boring, I can once more slowly begin work on my mod again.

Very little progress has been made since I last posted back in March, and I'm going to have to redo all the scripting work I had done.  Fortunately I still have all the completed models and all the research I had done so far.

I also want to offer an apology to a number of members here, especially Nodscouter.  I disappeared off the boards without a word and without the advice, assistance and support of a number of members here the mod would never have progressed as far as it had before life got in the road.  So I am sorry guys.  Hopefully I can make it up to you by getting a worthwhile mod released.

Anyway, just a heads up.  Will update the first post with where the mod actually stands at the moment, what I'm intending on changing or adding from the original list of ideas I had and any requests for assistance I may have  :grin:

Cheers
Kvedulf
 

xXBerethorXx

Sergeant
WB
To be honest im a tad bit sad because I thought this would be about the Greco-Persian Wars or the Peloponnesian War but this could still be fun because it involves greeks :smile:
 

Sahran

Grandmaster Knight
I can't help with research being too busy with other stuff, but a few thoughts/references (and an assumption that you already know of http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/index.htm ).

Book 13 - 580 = Idomeneus stabs Oenomaus (Trojan), who has a corselet where plates join. This could either be the 'full corselet' with hanging pieces (A'la Dendra), the "sea People" style cuirass with V or /\ shaped segments on the torso area, or scale/lamellar.

Book 12 - 490 = "Oxhide round their chests". I've seen various interpretations of leather armor in this period. It's not documented on salimbeti's site but I tend to like the 'lobster strapped corselet' often attributed to the Philistines and other levantine people but often depicted for Trojans or Achaeans. It's like the V shaped segmental plate armor but horizontal (like a lorica segmenta), and of leather.

I'm not sure how you're depicting the Trojans but I'm generally a fan of a "Sea People" interpretation. I don't base that on strong archeaological references but more a deductive reasoning.

It's fairly accepted that the Sea People originated especially from the Aegean and Western Anatolia. I'm not sure if they came from Dardania as some claim of the Tjeker, but the fact that they came from West Anatolia suggests Trojans are more likely to look like Sea people than Hittites (A far removed people who always had trouble holding Western Anatolia, and which didn't to my knowledge invest in the region like they did in Syria, which is why you had the Neo-Hittites of Carcemish and such rather than Lydia/Lycia/Troad).

Naturally if you're going with the mythology there's room for flexibility - I think Hektor uses a figure of 8 shield (Or a proto dipylon), you'd probably see more Anatolian/Hittite influences - "Labrys Shields", what I call these Anatolian but sometimes Aegean shields http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/othershield07.jpg , along with scale armor.

Curious what you'll cast the Thracian allies of the Trojans as. Because of an absence of info we at SITD first went with an anachronistic later Thracian style, but as time went on I started to follow either a Sea people or Bronze Age European (with embossed bronze cuirasses) thought.

Also too lazy to cite the specific reference (I am pretty sure it's still chapter 13, around a page before Hektor goes to find his allied warlords like Asius son of Hyrtacus and others were killed), but the Locrians of Lesser Ajax are noted as having no helmets of bronze or horn, no bronze corselets or shields but trusting only in their bow and spun sling.

 

Kvedulf

Sergeant Knight
Thanks for that.  Definitely know about salimbeti.com :smile:

You've made quite a few good points there that I hadn't thought of.

I'm also a big fan of the Sea People segmentata.

Hadn't thought of doing the Trojans/Luwians as Sea Peoples.  I might look into that.  Like you said, it makes sense.  I think I personally would use the Peleset feathered helmet rather than the Shardana horned helmet, Sea people segmentata and probably use Hittite influences over Helladic.

I still hadn't worked out what I was going to do with the Thracians.  I was going to do later Thracians as well, but I like the idea of going with a combination of Bronze Age European and Helladic influences.

I didn't know about the reference to the Locrians that you've got there.  I was going to make them light spearmen, using small shields and linen corselets.  My logic for that was simply the fact that Ajax the Lesser wears that and I was using him as a basis for what a Locrian noble might wear.

Cheers
Kvedulf
 

Sahran

Grandmaster Knight
You'd want to check out the Osprey book "Bronze Age Greek Warrior" (http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/Bronze-Age-Greek-Warrior-1600%E2%80%931100-BC_9781849081955) Even though I am almost certain the author is the same as the website I noted - a lot of artwork and hypotheses and even text are the exact same.

I was going to first say I agree with you on the Shardana horned helmet not being included, until I realized like the Peleset feathered tiara the horned helmet is apparently ubiqutous in the Aegean area.

Greek Age of Bronze (GAB for ease) notes the eras of helmets from the Mycenaeans:

Early (2000-1500): http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/elmi9.jpg
Middle ( 1500-1300): http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/elmi10.jpg
Late (1300 - 1100): http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/elmi11.jpg

I think the Early is out of the question but I have seen Middle Era helmets depicted in Late era stuff (Easily by the same author as this website), after all we do still hear of boar tusk helmets in the Iliad (even though one is already depicted in the Late era helmets). Here's a specific Iliad reference (Book 13 circa 700): "Pisander hacked the horn of the horsehair-crested helmet right at its ridge, lunging at Menelaus.."

It seems the GAB author considers 'tubes' to refer to a horn (judging from Achilles' later helmet having four tubes, and then GAB author noting the new helmet with 4 horns). Either way I do think horned helmets aren't going to be anachronistic or unhistorical - too late for me to look for specific period depictions of them but I am basically 100% certain they are authentic. Maybe just for the Akhaioi, but I don't see a reason why Trojans wouldn't use them too.

Thracians: I found it interesting how at least in my book's translation Thracians and Phrygians are called horsemen. Could easily just mean charioteer, Hektor's the breaker of horses after all but it makes me wonder if you can't cast the Thraco-Phrygians as riders of horses and not chariots. There's no sort of consensus on riding horses in this period but I'd favor a middle of the road opinion - I don't agree with the idea that nobody rode them in the area (whether for travel or possibly for war), but I don't imagine it was very common. Either way, you could consider it for them.

One reference I did come across that's interesting is Book 13, #670: Heleneus charged deipyrus, cleft the side of his head with a massive Thracian sword". I don't think there's any way that's a falx, since we don't see anything approaching a falx until maybe the 5th century. But if there are massive European swords of this period it might fit the bill. Otherwise what I would recommend since you've got a clean slate of not having worked on prior materials or designs for them would be to go with that kind of "Barbarian European/Balkan Bronze Age" Vibe, like Illyrans or Thracians but with Bronze age aesthetics
1) Thracians & Phrygians (who are basically Asian Thracians right now) are noted horsemen. Rhesus has great horses for his chariot. So does Asius son of Hyrtacus. Whether or not you can get a chariot script you could have them have horsemen.
2) I seem to recall the Thracians being noted as numberless hordes in Rhesus contingent. So that might support a horde of "Peltasts". I am not sure I'd do peltes, but more likely round shields of wicker and hide.
3) Top dog Thracians can fight and look like Trojans/Greeks



Locrians: Book 13, #620: "But no Locrians followed the hearty Little jaax. They had no love for stand and fight encounters- h ad no crested bronze helmets to guard their heads, no balanced shields in their grasp, no ashen spears, only their bows and slings of springy, twisted wool. Trusting these, they followed their chief to troy, shooting with these, salvo on pelting salvo, they tore the Trojan battle line to pieces. So the men in heavy armor fought at the front, they grappled Trojans and Hektor helmed n bronze while Locrians slung from the rear, safe, out of range.."

I tend to follow a liberal interpretation of the facts so I do imagine they could have had light spearmen, but I think since this is the only instance of the Akhaioi for an ethnic group singled out in fighting style (I don't think the Myrmidons are singled out so, just cast as best of the best but otherwise they presumably fight like the rest) it rings true.

But I think it shows the majority of Locrian troops would be light slingers, archers, and maybe javelineers. A small core of high end troops being spearmen armed like Little Ajax.


Just to repeat the research I found for organization of politics and military:

(W)Anax = "High King", Agamemnon and Priamos get the title the most. Sarpedon, Nestor and Diomedes apparently here and there have it given to them.
Lawagetai is the "marshall", the guy who commands the army.

Nobility titles are horribly complicated. I'd go with Basilieus (or the archaic, Linear B version of that) for kings like Odysseus or Nestor or Diomedes or Greater Ajax, since I've heard its the term Homer uses and can be translated to Chieftain/King/Lord but not as lofty as Anax.

If all the Greeks have some sort of connection/union under Agamemnon (whether they can still war with one another or not), you could reserve Anax for Agamemnon. Otherwise it seems like in real history Mycenae didn't have that kind of total authority. I recall the major Mycenaean palace-kingdoms in history as being Mycenaea, Thebes, Pylos, Crete, and another I forget the name of. You might want to reserve Anax then for the major Kings - Agamemnon, Idomeneus, Nestor, Diomedes, and possibly Thersander of Thebes (If set right when the Trojan War starts, since he dies before the Iliad). Thersander only earns it for a historical context rather than myth, since his 50 ships are matched by others while Agamemnon/Idomeneus/Nestor/Diomedes all contribute the greatest number of ships (100, 80, 90, and 80 I think).

Eqeta/Equeta is the "Knightly" caste of the Mycenaeans, what I read to be the retinue of the king. Some argued that folks like Odysseus and Idomenes (Cretan guy) are the "Equeta" of Agamemnon, but I tended to view them as the retinue of a Basilieus rather than a Basilieus itself. Since you're going with individual Greek kingdoms rather than just "The Akhaioi" under Agamemnon, I would reserve Equeta for a troop title and find another term for lords beneath Agamemnon or Odysseus or Idomenes or Achilles.

Promachos was just a term I remember coming across, I am not sure it had any official bearing but it translated to Champion/fighter at the front. I forget what the reference was, I think it was the Osprey Mycenaean Book (not quite as good as the Bronze Age Greek book in my experience) saying that title could be afforded to the 'light' infantry who fought with swords rather than spear. Either way, you could use it to refer to those "once mentioned" Heroes of the Iliad who might be greater than an Equeta, but not high enough to be a lord.

=======================================================================================================================

On the topic of Luwians, I tried to develop my own lexicon for them based on authentic (at least from what I could access on google books and such) Luwian terminology, since we don't really know what their military was like or organized or termed. If you want I can PM you what I have, though I'd warn it's very messy and there's a healthy degree of creative licensing. It's not terminology like "Spearman", but more a term for the tier. "Hastali/a" translated to hero or champion, so I gave it to tier 5, "Arawani" (or variations of it) meant "Free" or even "aristocratic", so I appropriated it to refer to a noble warrior the same way "Azat" in armenian means Free and Noble (and you find that feature elsewhere in other languages).
 

Kvedulf

Sergeant Knight
Thanks heap for the info.  Haven't looked at the new Osprey yet, but I think you're right about it being by the same author.

I'm agreeing for the most part with you about the helmets.  Most of the helms in the mod will be from the Middle period, as I'm shifting the date of the Trojan War back to 1350 BC (for gameplay reasons, no historical basis for it).  Will have to do more research into horned helmets before I make a decision on it.

The info on the Thracians is quite interesting.  Particularly the reference to the "massive Thracian sword".  Considering the Illiad was written before the appearance of the falx, it may be another one remnant of the Bronze Age within the story, like the references to various shields and helmets etc.  It may also just be poetic licence.  From the top of my head the only thing I can think of that comes close to that in Bronze Age Europe are the halberd/axe/sword weapons from Denmark.

As to horse riding, I'm fairly sure there's a reference somewhere to Ramses the Great having a contingent of either Nubian or Lydian scouts mounted on horses.  So there is definitely some scope for very light cavalry.

I'm going to change my Locrians to match that description now.  As to ethnic groups singled out, I'm considering adding sailors to the roster for Pylos and maybe Ithaca.  For Pylos, it's based on the Linear B records requesting men for the ships.  I'm considering adding them to Ithaca simply because at times, Odysseus feels like a king of pirates.  It also makes sense considering it's an island kingdom.

Most of the info on the organisation I had, although I'd missed the term promachos.  I think I'll use that for lesser lords.

I'd love it if you'd PM your work on the Luwians.  I know next to nothing about them, and the more I have the better, regardless of whether you've based it on conjecture.

Cheers
Kvedulf
 

NikeBG

Baron
M&BWBNWWF&S
Sahran said:
Thracians: I found it interesting how at least in my book's translation Thracians and Phrygians are called horsemen. Could easily just mean charioteer, Hektor's the breaker of horses after all but it makes me wonder if you can't cast the Thraco-Phrygians as riders of horses and not chariots. There's no sort of consensus on riding horses in this period but I'd favor a middle of the road opinion - I don't agree with the idea that nobody rode them in the area (whether for travel or possibly for war), but I don't imagine it was very common. Either way, you could consider it for them.
The Thracians were indeed rather famous in those times as charioteers - f.e. in book X about Rhesus is said "His horses are the finest and strongest that I have ever seen, they are whiter than snow and fleeter than any wind that blows. His chariot is bedight with silver and gold, and he has brought his marvellous golden armour, of the rarest workmanship- too splendid for any mortal man to carry, and meet only for the gods." Book IX of the Odyssey says about another Thracian tribe, the Cicones, "for they could fight, either from chariots or on foot as the occasion served". And chariots have been depicted on wall-paintings and found archaeologically indeed.
On the other hand, the famous Thracian Heros is also known as the Thracian Horseman (not the Thracian Charioteer), though that image might've evolved later (and it indeed became most spread in the Roman period, I think).

As for the massive sword - maybe some sort of a rhomphaia?
 
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