MM or NW
- 主题发起人 Balexander
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As a native player, Napoleonic is slightly more annoying in a sense, because it's much harder to get to bayonet range (due to higher close range accuracy). However, it has shortened the average bayonet fight between 2 average native players from until the map timer ran out to about 30 seconds, which is a positive.
77thRegiment
Regular
Evanovic 说:
+1 the mellee is better in MM if you make it back again there will be fun again not only the luck fun.
KillerMongoose
Sergeant Knight
I can't believe you people are complaining...
JohanBorg163
Sergeant
I think NW is better in any way.
b00227783
Sergeant Knight at Arms
Yup, NW is better in everyway.
I'm amazed people are STILL complaining about the ****ing melee 1 month from release. Not even the swords need buffed IMO, I can handle both the sword and bayonet just fine. I'd prefer a bayonent when fighting a group still though. Chambers don't need to be made unblockable, because then all I need to do is practise chambering and become unbeatable yeah?
Turning speed is really just fine, I've yet to be in a situation where I couldn't turn fast enough to kill someone/block an attack. Stop thinking this is based around melee, and think of it as "bad hit detection counterstrike with a melee system". 
If Vince does cave in and change it, I could care less. I'll adapt, you cry babies will complain again that he ain't doing it right, while I'm having fun ingame.
I'm amazed people are STILL complaining about the ****ing melee 1 month from release. Not even the swords need buffed IMO, I can handle both the sword and bayonet just fine. I'd prefer a bayonent when fighting a group still though. Chambers don't need to be made unblockable, because then all I need to do is practise chambering and become unbeatable yeah?
Turning speed is really just fine, I've yet to be in a situation where I couldn't turn fast enough to kill someone/block an attack. Stop thinking this is based around melee, and think of it as "bad hit detection counterstrike with a melee system". If Vince does cave in and change it, I could care less. I'll adapt, you cry babies will complain again that he ain't doing it right, while I'm having fun ingame.
Hekko
Master Knight
Maboobs 说:Chambers don't need to be made unblockable, because then all I need to do is practise chambering and become unbeatable yeah?
I don't think you are thinking things through properly when making this statement. First of all, chambering good people never was easy in MM, because they knew about chambers and how to counter them. Secondly chambering carries a larger inherent risk than anything else, because failure to get of the chambers is almost certain death. Thirdly chambering is needed as something unblockable because it breaks the normal pace of melee and forces the opponent to do something different in order to survive. Fourthly, chambering someone isn't an automatic I win button, because you still can rechamber. So yeah, it's an interesting mechanic that is NEEDED to make melee interesting and differentiate it from native.
Maboobs 说:Turning speed is really just fine, I've yet to be in a situation where I couldn't turn fast enough to kill someone/block an attack. Stop thinking this is based around melee, and think of it as "bad hit detection counterstrike with a melee system".
I lost against a guy with a butterknife today, he didn't really know how to play, he lucked out and tanked the first stab and then he ran in circles around me, and I couldn't turn quickly enough to stab him, even after I had blocked to get attackpriority. Melee is the most interesting part of the gameplay, so no it's not counterstrike with bad hit detection, in case I wanted counter strike I would be playing counter strike.
Hekko
Master Knight
"- Close range thrust chamber blocks. If you are close enough and chamber block a thrust attack with your own you will strike them. If they have a long weapon or are backing up they can step out of range of the attack sometimes, but this is a way to hit someone."
"The only unblockable attacks are close range thrust chamber blocks"
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,87133.0.html
Not to mention that anyone who had played MM somewhat seriously would know that it's against the norm to block a downattack chamber.
"The only unblockable attacks are close range thrust chamber blocks"
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,87133.0.html
Not to mention that anyone who had played MM somewhat seriously would know that it's against the norm to block a downattack chamber.
Lots of if's in that quote. I'd say it agrees with me and with my personal experience. Hell, you agree too, since you say it's merely "against the norm".
A successful chamber was not a guaranteed kill, even if you weren't counterchambered. Footwork was a very important factor.
That personal jab and thinly-veiled "noob" insult is completely gratuitous.
A successful chamber was not a guaranteed kill, even if you weren't counterchambered. Footwork was a very important factor.
That personal jab and thinly-veiled "noob" insult is completely gratuitous.
Sebastiann
Sergeant
lord_olafson 说:
+1
to hell with democracy!
- erh yea.. You cant make everyone happy. Which clearly is being displayed in the thread. Anyhow NW, is a really nice product, and far more superior to MM.
Oh i remember the long days of the moaning when the 'patch' is coming out. Was quiet fun, and now this.. Ah whats next ? hm.
in all fairness they have listned to the community quite well, for voting and such. The melee system, or whatever theres 'wrong' with it, i dont know. I have been in MM for 2 years, and seen my share of melee fighintg. competitive or not. Its all down to your own opinion. And the voting was favoring the one we've got now. Sorry for the ones who voted no, or whatsoever, but in my own opinion its alright. Although i shoulden't hide its damn annoying being 1 hitted by a upper stab, and yes it has brought a few raging moments. Although i have to say it does make the game abit harder, now that everyone is a threat, and not just a few 'superior melee fighters' - That is competitive, in my eyes.
Evanovic
Knight at Arms
hrotha 说:
Put it this way: chambering is much less useful now and you see chambers blocked a hell of a lot more often in NW, to the extent that you may as well say MM chambers were 'unblockable' in comparison to the current. The point is that chambering is now a useless thing to risk doing due to the slow turning mechanic that causes you to stub and more specifically in the case of the overhead: odd animations that make it impossible to achieve.
Hekko
Master Knight
hrotha 说:
I am confuzzeled are you agreeing with me or not? Your general tone suggest disagreement, while you say the quote agrees with you when it infact is my quote supporting my side of the argument.
hrotha 说:
A successful chamber was not a guaranteed kill, however, it almost always was a guaranteed hit(/poke/thud/stub/whiff). People who got away with blocking chambers either had a dodgy connection, a very low ping or were incredibly lucky. And anyone/everyone of those who were reckognized as good players in MM would, rightly so, call bull**** if someone blocked two chambers in a row.
hrotha 说:
Well, I genuinely don't know if you played MM that much, quickly looking through your post history most of your 15 pages of posts seem to be about Vikingr and NW with 9 in total being about MM. Furthermore, I made the comment in order to tie in MM into the quote since the quotes post was made in regards to warband. And to illustrate the statement:
"2:10 - (WoC|2|Hekko: Would you say that downchambers were blockable in MM?
2:11 - KWAC_Sid: Mhm
2:11 - KWAC_Sid: No"
"2:24 - (WoC|2|Hekko: Heya, would you say that chambers were blockable in MM?
2:24 - (WoC|2|Hekko: Assuming a ping of around 40
2:24 - Vikestad: Generally no, but if you sidestep like a boss"
(By the way, this sidestepping thing has become infinatly easier with the lower turnspeed, which is why I am saying that even downchambers are rather blockable these days, because it takes so long to turn to the target)
"1:51 - (WoC|2|Hekko: Would you say that a down chamber in MM was unblockable in general?
1:51 - Evanovic: most of the time
1:52 - (WoC|2|Hekko: Assuming a normal ping (people between 35 and 55)
1:53 - Evanovic: yeah"
The bottomline is, it's painfully obvious that chambers are borderline useless these days due to many reasons, one of which is that they are rather blockable these days, and that is a huge loss for both competitive and entertaining gameplay. I ask you to run the following test just stand still at medium range, stab, get chamberblocked and try to block on time, you know what's coming so reactions don't really come into play, and if both of you have ping of around 40 your goose is cooked.
Edit: As the scientifically minded people me and Evan are we actually went to the duel server and tested it out in a plethora of scenarios with different skins to utilize the different polearm skills. And what we found is that downchambers are not blockable as long as: you are in range to actually hit the person with a normal stab*, you don't hold it in for any amount of time, you don't do fancy manouvering on the up-down axis with the chamber. My ping was just above 40 and evans was around 55. All range tests were run double sided so that both tried to do it at the same range. The tests did not involve any form of movement of the characters since the tests would be too hard to replicate time and time again with the same conditions.
*Your block extends a bit infront of your char, and as such you can block attacks that wouldn't otherwise reach you, we found that chambers were blockable in this scenario, but blocking or not didn't matter since the stab was out of range either way.
Evanovic
Knight at Arms
Hekko 说:
Yes, I can confirm said findings. We also tested Overhead Chambers. Now, it was found that these were universally blockable. We tried from many distances and we were able to block them every time. If you couple this with the sheer difficulty of chambering an overhead (due to dodgy animations), remembering that a failed chamber usually results in death, you can safely say that chambering with the Overhead in any circumstances is not worth the risk.
To explain why the Underarm Stabs are more blockable in NW melee combat: the findings suggest that if the chambering stab does not penetrate fast it can be blocked. In NW the slow turning mechanic prevents a lot of chambers from penetrating fast, as often chambers are done when the opponents are not directly facing eachother, and thus the chambering player needs to turn to move his chambering stab into the other player. The only time when the turning mechanic does not affect the chambering is when it is done at stand still and directly (the stringent test conditions that we imposed on the experiment). You can see then that successful Underarm Chambering is limited to when you're pretty much mirroring the opponent, quite an unlikely situation in most melee combat, and therefore not common enough.
So with the Overhead Stab being completely useless for chambering and the Underarm Stab losing a lot of it's use in dynamic melee fights we can safely say that Chambering has lost its punch and sadly detracted from the variety of melee. And one could argue that chambering was the main thing that made breaking an opponent's rhythm possible.
Well I wasn't expecting you to actually go and test it! 
Dunno, it's my impression. I think the oddities of chambering and blocking in NW might have more to do with wonky animations than with slow turning speed, as I don't see why that would be a factor in making chambering less of a viable technique. Víkingr for example has much slower movement speed, and while you can block chambers if you're fast enough they're still pretty effective.
By the way, I was saying you could block them in some circumstances, not that it was the norm. That's why I said your quote supported my position, because it qualifies that statement with several conditions under which you could block.
Dunno, it's my impression. I think the oddities of chambering and blocking in NW might have more to do with wonky animations than with slow turning speed, as I don't see why that would be a factor in making chambering less of a viable technique. Víkingr for example has much slower movement speed, and while you can block chambers if you're fast enough they're still pretty effective.
By the way, I was saying you could block them in some circumstances, not that it was the norm. That's why I said your quote supported my position, because it qualifies that statement with several conditions under which you could block.
Klyvare
Veteran
lord_olafson 说:
... I find it quite obvious that the vote for overhead stabs was to implement overhead stabs in a balanced and good way, which is a part of creating a game. And not a vote for "Give me unbalanced and broken overhead stabs". Everyone probably took for granted that the overhead stabs would be as balanced as the old ones were.
And tbh it feels like it is quite clearly a bad gameplay mechanic when you have two attacks, and two attacks only, which both are identical just different directions. It is like playing WoW or HoN etc where all youre spells to the exact same thing. It creates a gameplay which is lifeless and dull. Luckily for NW there are other things to combat to counter for this like feinting etc which can bring SOME flavour to the combat, but what you did was remove a lot of it for hardly any gain then to dumb things down.
And also, what a great attitude you have as a game developer!
