MM or NW
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Vorlen
Squire
lord_olafson 说:
I didn't vote (Although, granted i would have voted yes at the time had i known about this poll), but seeing how in general the Dev's seem to not care about about anyone's criticism of things that most people agree are ****ed i won't care to try to be diplomatic.
Next time when people vote for changes, do them well or don't bother, test them properly, and make sure it works without glitches. There hasn't been a single "We are looking into this, thanks guys for your feedback" And it's quite clear that more than a vocal minority have issues with NW's melee.
All I have seen so far is the issue being publicly ignored and then when you finally get around to talking about it, this...
Vincenzo 说:NW is not competitive?
It is actually quite better balanced, the bayonet is still as powerfull as MM, just you have more options now.
In all essence, people don't like change, and I would hardly call our combat system anything like WFAS, or mainstream.
... Is the kind of reply we get. 13e team won the melee tourny again, like they usually do, the landscape of "good" players hasn't changed much, shifted a few points either way for a couple of people, but nothing drastic. Doesn't change that melee at the high end of the game is worse and less fun. "More balanced" just says "dumbed down and glitchy" to me.
And no this isn't an "YOU BROKE MY GAME DEVS I HATES U", as i said in another post, i'm playing native these days when i play at all, you can do as you like with NW.
But i bought it, and my opinion is that it's pretty arrogant of you to absolutely ignore such a large collection of esteemed veterans who contributed alot to this community, probably proving a good portion of the community foundation that has allowed you to sell this as a DLC. Players like Ward, Chibbi, Evan etc, etc (The list goes on and on).
Genuinly reads like a big "**** you" in my eyes.
KillerMongoose
Sergeant Knight
There is absolutely no question, MM is good but NW is everything that MM couldn't be and more.
dan1993uk
Grandmaster Knight
Vorlen 说:
Well you have to take into account that the vast majority of players that use the forum like NW more and seeing as they made this game to sell its what the vast majority want not the minority and IMO I would say the melee is much more fun because its more punishing, but that's just me.
If you don't like the game than that's all you, but continually posting here does nothing because they are not going to change the melee system for you and your friends because you don't like it.
Face facts the majority like NW more and as such it would be complete idiocy to change the game to make a small group of people happy.
Ograv
Sergeant
Well, my opinion: NW > MM, of course. Still, I wish horses (at least heavy cav) was a slight bit faster, shooting on horseback quite a bit less accurate/longer reload on horseback, muskets could be a little less accurate at range and the overhead stab (while I love it's inclusion in the game) could be just a little bit nerfed (primarily range). Edit: Also, blocking seems slower for some reason.
Great job on the game, but of course, as with any game, there are some small issues that could be improved on (and of course, what these issues are and the solution varies from person to person).
Great job on the game, but of course, as with any game, there are some small issues that could be improved on (and of course, what these issues are and the solution varies from person to person).
@Vorlen
From what I've gleamed during the past months, the reason NW is the way it is today is thanks to the MM suggestion thread of which multiple suggestions made their way in. The personal **** you impressions people get from Vince's replies are unfounded. It was the MM community who determined the direction of NW right from the get go. Yet the dev's have had to deal with plenty of self entitled posters who seemingly demand respect for this reason or another. If your unhappy with your purchase it is by no means the dev's fault as not all individual tastes can be catered to.
However you have the ability to mod NW and can create a classic mod if you want.
From what I've gleamed during the past months, the reason NW is the way it is today is thanks to the MM suggestion thread of which multiple suggestions made their way in. The personal **** you impressions people get from Vince's replies are unfounded. It was the MM community who determined the direction of NW right from the get go. Yet the dev's have had to deal with plenty of self entitled posters who seemingly demand respect for this reason or another. If your unhappy with your purchase it is by no means the dev's fault as not all individual tastes can be catered to.
However you have the ability to mod NW and can create a classic mod if you want.
_Logan_
Regular
Napoleonic Wars has been/is being sold almost exclusivley on word of mouth; the marketing budget costs are probably equivalent to the change in your back pocket.
The vast majority of original players of MM also translated to be the vast majority who knew about NW, therefor, how can NW has balooned into thousands of players (estimated 30k sales) from a maximum of 1k players if those original players didnt enjoy it enough to spread the word. Yet, if MM was so popular and good and amazing etc; why did it maintain (a still healthy) a much lower player base?
I know saying it's better because it's more popular is an obvious fallacy, but it's there.
Now, lets look at improvments;
- Over 220 units, rebuilt from the ground up, including expanded artillerey avalable for use like rockets, and then the sappers and engineers who can plant bombs, or build cover, which combined with the destructable cover mechanic adds a whole new layer of depth. Moreover the units included are perfected; literally, not a single detail is off to even the most astute pitch fork weilding gaming historian eager to shout at online companies 'raping' history. Not only this but the strenghts and weaknesses of the classes have been expanded on i.e; rifleman super vunerable to cavalry, grenadiers have better melle, curassiers are slower but more heavily protected and so forth.
- Improved graphics, better textures, re done player models and new animations.
- Dozens of new maps + random maps and an astonashing ammount of custom maps being developed by players already. Plenty f varietey, and with destructable enviroments mean alot of maps often play out differently (especially seige which is transformed now you can breach walls entirley and climb rubble in a forlorn hope)
- More servers, and increased stability
- Musicians, standard bearers and officers give morale and skill buffs.
- New game modes like Commander Battle which will ensure the game can still be played if even like 4 people played daily as you can command 50, or more bots.
- Increased character customization
- New proffesional voice acting
- A boat load of classical backround tracks and tunes your musicians can play
- Replacing zoom with a telescope for commanders to ensure only the leaders have that tactical edge, and including the much desired march function, and the brace function
- A completley revamped custom battle mode with up to 500 bots (IIRC) now possible to be divided up into custom squadrons up to 50 men and who can fight on a number of maps
- Fantastic art work
- Increased popularity leading to increased ammount of line battles.
NOW;
Some people are saying they prefer the now (badly aged) MM because they think a single attack animation, only useable by baeonet equipped infantry, is over powered? And the thrust only Baeonet. WTF is wrong with you people?
The vast majority of original players of MM also translated to be the vast majority who knew about NW, therefor, how can NW has balooned into thousands of players (estimated 30k sales) from a maximum of 1k players if those original players didnt enjoy it enough to spread the word. Yet, if MM was so popular and good and amazing etc; why did it maintain (a still healthy) a much lower player base?
I know saying it's better because it's more popular is an obvious fallacy, but it's there.
Now, lets look at improvments;
- Over 220 units, rebuilt from the ground up, including expanded artillerey avalable for use like rockets, and then the sappers and engineers who can plant bombs, or build cover, which combined with the destructable cover mechanic adds a whole new layer of depth. Moreover the units included are perfected; literally, not a single detail is off to even the most astute pitch fork weilding gaming historian eager to shout at online companies 'raping' history. Not only this but the strenghts and weaknesses of the classes have been expanded on i.e; rifleman super vunerable to cavalry, grenadiers have better melle, curassiers are slower but more heavily protected and so forth.
- Improved graphics, better textures, re done player models and new animations.
- Dozens of new maps + random maps and an astonashing ammount of custom maps being developed by players already. Plenty f varietey, and with destructable enviroments mean alot of maps often play out differently (especially seige which is transformed now you can breach walls entirley and climb rubble in a forlorn hope)
- More servers, and increased stability
- Musicians, standard bearers and officers give morale and skill buffs.
- New game modes like Commander Battle which will ensure the game can still be played if even like 4 people played daily as you can command 50, or more bots.
- Increased character customization
- New proffesional voice acting
- A boat load of classical backround tracks and tunes your musicians can play
- Replacing zoom with a telescope for commanders to ensure only the leaders have that tactical edge, and including the much desired march function, and the brace function
- A completley revamped custom battle mode with up to 500 bots (IIRC) now possible to be divided up into custom squadrons up to 50 men and who can fight on a number of maps
- Fantastic art work
- Increased popularity leading to increased ammount of line battles.
NOW;
Some people are saying they prefer the now (badly aged) MM because they think a single attack animation, only useable by baeonet equipped infantry, is over powered? And the thrust only Baeonet. WTF is wrong with you people?
Ograv
Sergeant
Yep, the majority of us love the game, and still think it's better than M&M. However, clearly a lot of people don't think it's perfect (of course, nothing is). I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying it could be improved upon. And I highly doubt the majority of players would complain if the upper stab is slightly (and I mean slightly) nerfed. It's how I get 90& of my kills.
At first I thought it was mostly just people being unable to block them since they were new to the game, but in addition to the M&M "veterans" being unable to block them out of habit, the animations provide a slight advantage, they do more damage and have a higher range than the lower stab.
I'm not saying remove it; I'm saying that since they're better in more or less every situation, they should be at least nerfed down to being close to the lower stab. either that or improve the lower stab, or a little bit of both.
Overall though I'm very happy with NW
At first I thought it was mostly just people being unable to block them since they were new to the game, but in addition to the M&M "veterans" being unable to block them out of habit, the animations provide a slight advantage, they do more damage and have a higher range than the lower stab.
I'm not saying remove it; I'm saying that since they're better in more or less every situation, they should be at least nerfed down to being close to the lower stab. either that or improve the lower stab, or a little bit of both.
Overall though I'm very happy with NW
Hekko
Master Knight
rejenorst 说:
I don't think what Vorlen means to say that the idea of things is bad, I think he tries to point out that when alot of respected, veteran players make posts saying that melee still needs tweaking they get no response at all (up until recently that is) and once they did get a response it comes across as rather rude, the meme certainly is something that a company should not use as a response to it's customers.
Also, the devs should cater to these people, since people like Evan, Vorlen, Chibbi, Ward, Sid etc. were and are some of the best players around yet they all dislike the melee, which shows that the criticism is not fueled by their own shortcomings and backed up by a deep understanding of the game mechanics as well as experience. If you allow people who do not understand chamberblocking, attack priority etc. shape too much of the development you end up with a melee system that has a very low skill ceiling, which is what has happened in the transition between MM and NW.
Furthermore, the suggestions on the suggestion forum also has to be tempered with a bit of sensibility, there were some people suggesting that blocking should be removed for instance. (However, this is something that I feel has been done very well).
_Logan_ 说:
The different classes were in place in MM so that's not really an improvement as you put it. The new artillery and sappers certainly add novelty value to the game and atmosphere, but it does not carry gameplay.
_Logan_ 说:
Certainly improvements (with the exception of some animations), a better looking game will have an overall lasting effect on how one enjoys it and this together with the sounds are really the only big improvements for me in the DLC that are not just novelty factor. However, I do prefere gameplay over eye(/ear)-candy (although the latter is important as well!)
_Logan_ 说:
Destructible walls and sieges were possible in MM, and there were a ton of custom made maps in MM as well.
_Logan_ 说:
Well, the number of servers have not really increased. I cannot comment on stability since I have found both MM and NW very stable. Performance has improved though after the patches though, that I must say is a big improvement.
_Logan_ 说:
Quite gimmicky at best, not really a noticeable difference to gameplay on the battle server for instance.
_Logan_ 说:
As far as I recall bot battles were possible even in MM, although I find that functionality is much improved in NW, however, commander battles are not really that important, it's certainly a nice feature, but if it was between commander battles and chambers becoming unblockable again or turning speed being reincreased or animations for the upstab being smoothened I would not hesitate to go with the improvement to the core gameplay, so the value added by commander battles isn't really that great.
_Logan_ 说:
Again, nice, but ultimately novelty factor that will wear off.
_Logan_ 说:
Absolutely awesomesauceilicious, the voice acting together with other sounds is really an improvement that I believe has a lasting effect and not just be novelty factor that wears off after a while
_Logan_ 说:
Zooming can be re-enabled afaik, and how to do it was floating rather freely here on the forum a while ago afaik, futhermore in the process, or so it seems, the zooming in and out in 3rd person seems to have gone, which means that some people are stuck viewing their character too closely/far away for their liking.
_Logan_ 说:
It's a multiplayer mod, so this is novelty factor at best.
_Logan_ 说:
Something nice to have, but still, gameplay over loadingscreen art.
_Logan_ 说:
15e still has roughly one linebattle per day, which is what we had before NW was released as well, so that's not really a change.
_Logan_ 说:
Don't get me wrong, I personally like NW in all aspects except melee, as does Vorlen (or so he did the last time I spoke to him about the other features), however, melee is THE most important feature since that is where alot of people spend most of their time when playing. Furthermore, something that is a bit irksome is that melee was better in MM, so the most important area of the game has taken a step backwards. Melee is what has kept me and alot of other players playing for hundreds if not thousands of hours so it's certainly a bit annoying when melee gets dumbed down, which is also why alot of profilic melee players have moved to native or just play less, because melee isn't as fun. What also is a bit mind boggling is that some changes wouldn't really affect anyone who isn't playing on a certain level anyway, I mean what do the beginers care if chambers are blockable or not, for better players it's paramount that you cannot consistantly block chambers though, so some changes could be implemented without upsetting anyone.
The bottomline is though: If more than 20% find MM to be better than NW then there is something to look into, and seriously at that. I personally even voted for NW since ultimatly the community is most important, and that is found in NW, the other improvements also go a long way to set NW as the better choise. However, it would be a shame if people were left to dream for the glorious days of MM rather than having nightmares about the dark ages of MM.
KillerMongoose
Sergeant Knight
I don't understand why people are complaining, it looks and feels fine, the upstab is something new and you just need to get used to it quite frankly. Vince and the other devs put lots of hard work into this and you guys are complaining about an upstab attack? The only thing I don't like about it is how it has a longer reach so blocking it leaves you a lot more open to other attacks if they utilize it's maximum effective range. But that's simply players utilizing the reach of the attack, it's not overpowered in any way. Just block and move on. And these "novelties" you talk about are things that many many players wanted and things like facial hair, musicians, artillery options and sappers are the little things that make the game that much more immersive. And just because you don't find them personally fun or useful doesn't make them "mere novelties", artillery regiments love that they can have howitzers as well as cannons, musicians and flags are now actually practical for usage in battle, again something many people wanted and it gives these classes a purpose. The new character customization allows for much more creative and personalized faces. Some peoples faces you simply can't forget and it makes it that much more thrilling when you recognize someones face in the thick of battle.
Vorlen
Squire
Hell, i like NW more as a "complete product", it loooks nicer, sounds nicer, i think you are right that most people prefer NW. But yes, maybe Hekko put it better than i did,, it isn't some small minority that aren't impressed with the melee. It's alot of people.
And no, it's not an excuse to say "Well you said you wanted these things... soooo... we did them". They have been done, but badly. I'm not going to profess to be a genius and understand all that much about modding in M&B, but in general the old saying applies "If you are doing to do something, then do it well". The melee is a big let down in it's current form. To use a (possibly ****) anaology. If you give me your car and say "Here, change the suspension and put in a more powerful engine." Then sure, i could do that, but when the torque of that new engine is too much for the other mechanical components to deal with and starts ripping your car to shreds, do I get to say "Well you got a new engine, what are you moaning about???". Having ideas is all well and good, but only if they are implemented well, which unfortunately, is the crux of this whole issue.
If we want to start using the old "poll on the MM melee" as being statisticly meaningfull in some way, then....
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,226361.0.html
That link shows that over 50% have issue with NW's melee. I'm not throwing my toys out of the pram, in my mind the money that the DLC cost is easily justifiable by all the fun i had in MM and i'm happy to have paid it for that, just giving anecdotal evidence that when a large amount of people are having increadingly rapid decline in interest for NW, that should be another cause for concern.
And no, it's not an excuse to say "Well you said you wanted these things... soooo... we did them". They have been done, but badly. I'm not going to profess to be a genius and understand all that much about modding in M&B, but in general the old saying applies "If you are doing to do something, then do it well". The melee is a big let down in it's current form. To use a (possibly ****) anaology. If you give me your car and say "Here, change the suspension and put in a more powerful engine." Then sure, i could do that, but when the torque of that new engine is too much for the other mechanical components to deal with and starts ripping your car to shreds, do I get to say "Well you got a new engine, what are you moaning about???". Having ideas is all well and good, but only if they are implemented well, which unfortunately, is the crux of this whole issue.
If we want to start using the old "poll on the MM melee" as being statisticly meaningfull in some way, then....
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,226361.0.html
That link shows that over 50% have issue with NW's melee. I'm not throwing my toys out of the pram, in my mind the money that the DLC cost is easily justifiable by all the fun i had in MM and i'm happy to have paid it for that, just giving anecdotal evidence that when a large amount of people are having increadingly rapid decline in interest for NW, that should be another cause for concern.
Vincenzo 说:NW is not competitive?
It is actually quite better balanced, the bayonet is still as powerfull as MM, just you have more options now.
In all essence, people don't like change, and I would hardly call our combat system anything like WFAS, or mainstream.
Now then, none of you know me. Your just gonna have to take my word that, I've no problem with NW, apart from being shot by people I'll rip up in melee
I've no issue with NW, was MM perfect and universally love from the get go? Okay, maybe I need to adjust with the new over head, I'll get use to it. Sooner or later, I reckon I'm a good player ( Aus/NZ) and this is like another "F&S vs warband"
Oh, and I thought that was rather funny, what Vince did...
Kator Viridian
Master Knight
Rollon 说:This thread is full of lulz
"eestimed veterans"(in your dreams maybe) whinning because they lost their "supremacy" with the DLC when it actually require more skill than previously needed in MM.
Still win with the right step stab ... even more so now ... got a hell of a lot easier for myself is my complaint, I love a challenge
Hekko
Master Knight
Rollon 说:This thread is full of lulz
"eestimed veterans"(in your dreams maybe) whinning because they lost their "supremacy" with the DLC when it actually require more skill than previously needed in MM.
Who are you, what regiment are you/have you been a part of, how have you finished in the group fighting tournaments? The people Vorlen listed, and Vorlen himself are certainly better known and recognized for their high level of skill than you are. And they are certainly doing as well or better in the DLC as they did in MM.
"More skill".... You do know that previously in order to be successful at MM you had to understand timings, blocks, feints, spins, chambers, footwork, ranges, traps laid out by certain techniques as well as understand how your opponent played and thought. Some of those things incorporate a huge amount of understanding, like timings for instance with held stabs, swipes, implied chambers, attack priority to mention a few.
These days it's about knowing how to block and how to feint and how to spam. Which is why the veteran players of MM are somewhat annoyed about the stupidification of melee.
