Emperor Aurelian had unstoppable armies as well.
Menavlion Infantry
- Thread starter Callum
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Long menavlions aren't long enough to reach Vlandian crossbowmen.
I think its kinda hard to 'fix' though as its their weapon (and glaives and other comparable weapons in general) that are the problem.
Aside from having a good main arnament they have little to no armor and no shield option. They die to anything ranged that hits them. Or heck, anything that hits them with those whole 7 points of armor
Their 2nd options (and ranged options) are also hilarious. A whole 27 damage with the light javelins or a single Pilum (does do nice damage, but 1 a shot wonder) or 1 handed sword for their 2nd weapon slot.
As is people are sacrificing alot to have that good weapon so what would be your suggestion to fix it?
Mushbeast
Knight at Arms
Honestly at this point I'd say just come up with a completely different main weapon. The armor values and speeds of the class can be balanced after that, but if the main weapon is kept as is no amount of value tweaking will make this a respected class, it will always be seen as cheese.I think its kinda hard to 'fix' though as its their weapon (and glaives and other comparable weapons in general) that are the problem.
Aside from having a good main arnament they have little to no armor and no shield option. They die to anything ranged that hits them. Or heck, anything that hits them with those whole 7 points of armor
Their 2nd options (and ranged options) are also hilarious. A whole 27 damage with the light javelins or a single Pilum (does do nice damage, but 1 a shot wonder) or 1 handed sword for their 2nd weapon slot.
As is people are sacrificing alot to have that good weapon so what would be your suggestion to fix it?
I think it could make sense to keep the menavlion if it was considerably shorter, like to the level of the palatine guard pole-arm. They would likely need some buffs after as well but even having access to the pila is pretty ridiculous too.
Remove the side swings from the menavlion, add a better 1h and shield option to the perks list.
Removing side swings fixes the menavlion both in infantry and on horseback.
All weapons like the menavliation, glaives, etc are over the top. Adress them rather then the class tbh. If a 2 handed polearm is a 'slashing' spear it shouldnt be the length of a pike.... Or if you want a 2 handed with that length thats fine, but remove the slashing ability. Every weapon that has both this insane reach and slashing ability is broken with the current game mechanics.
That said the class has no armor, no shield so taking them out at a distance is a viable option. You already run a risk playing this class that you will be taken out at a distance before you even reach melee. While the class is fast, it cant dodge everything, specially not if the ranged player is any good.
That said the class has no armor, no shield so taking them out at a distance is a viable option. You already run a risk playing this class that you will be taken out at a distance before you even reach melee. While the class is fast, it cant dodge everything, specially not if the ranged player is any good.
Ok, none of devs are checking out this part of forum, but ill throw my ideas here anyway.
New (old) class for Empire: Menavlion infantry >>> Empire infantry
Default items: Spatha, Short imperial spear, Kite shield
Perks:
Left side: Menavlion - replaces spear with menavlion (big changes, weapon can be handled in 1h mode for thrust only, slash damage decreased by 1.5x times, on horse becomes thrust only, can be couched in 2h mode (debatable))
Kontaria - replaces spear with long heavy imperial 2h pike, basically land kontos, perfect counter aganist cavalry, historically accurate weapon
Better shield - reinforced shield, nuff said
Right side:Better armor - increases armor, nuff said
Imperial axe - replaces spatha, grants imperial 1h short axe
Imperial mace - replaces spatha, grants imperial 1h short mace
As a cherry on cake, give him a legionarry-type leather helmet on default skin (or any other infantry helmet really), the fact that imperial unit of "strict imperial army" goes into battle without headwear (even recruits and archers arent that stupid) makes very stupid sight from side
New (old) class for Empire: Menavlion infantry >>> Empire infantry
Default items: Spatha, Short imperial spear, Kite shield
Perks:
Left side: Menavlion - replaces spear with menavlion (big changes, weapon can be handled in 1h mode for thrust only, slash damage decreased by 1.5x times, on horse becomes thrust only, can be couched in 2h mode (debatable))
Kontaria - replaces spear with long heavy imperial 2h pike, basically land kontos, perfect counter aganist cavalry, historically accurate weapon
Better shield - reinforced shield, nuff said
Right side:Better armor - increases armor, nuff said
Imperial axe - replaces spatha, grants imperial 1h short axe
Imperial mace - replaces spatha, grants imperial 1h short mace
As a cherry on cake, give him a legionarry-type leather helmet on default skin (or any other infantry helmet really), the fact that imperial unit of "strict imperial army" goes into battle without headwear (even recruits and archers arent that stupid) makes very stupid sight from side
Dunno how to feel about this suggestion. It honestly comes off to me as "Legionnaire Lite". Considering the current unit roster and TaleWorlds insistence on having only 7 classes per faction, it might just be best for TaleWorlds to keep the empire's roster as is: Javelin peasant, Light shock troop, Heavy Infantry, Light Archer, Heavy Archer, Light Cav, Heavy Cav
Why not change Menavlion Infantry to a "Varangian Guard"-esque shock inf?
Their main weapon could be a 2H axe and the menavlion itself could be a perk option -ideally being in the form of a thrust-only pike instead of the superweapon it currently is.
This change not only has the advantages of addressing the menavlion issue in a creative and constructive way, but it also lines up with the real-world historical aspect the Empire is loosely based on.
Their main weapon could be a 2H axe and the menavlion itself could be a perk option -ideally being in the form of a thrust-only pike instead of the superweapon it currently is.
This change not only has the advantages of addressing the menavlion issue in a creative and constructive way, but it also lines up with the real-world historical aspect the Empire is loosely based on.
Balance speaking, it would make empire more balanced faction on par with others
Thematic speaking, varangian guard were literally russians/vikings on payroll for empire, and we have already Sturgia faction for this
menavliaton can be barely considered a shock troop, its rather slashing-pikeman role
Also i pointed that menavlion would be still in roster for this new class as perk, it would be just more versatile (shield+menavlion combo, 2h braced for better anticav) and less stupid-anime type weapon (crazy slash damage, horse swinging bullsh*t)
Said this before, but honestly the menavlion is actually an interesting weapon and I had certainly never heard of it before Bannerlord. It's just ridiculous in it's current implementation when in reality it would be used as a supporting weapon only, which to me, fits thematically with the Empire relying on it's legionaries/cataphracts with the rest of the classes being close support.
Yeah the pieces are lined up pretty well for whoever does the storytelling at Taleworlds. It could easily be explained into Bannerlord lore.
I repeat again... Menavlion's archetype/class is interesting for the currently implemented class system (notice the irony). As I have said ad nauseam, the current use of the menavlion in my opinion is wrong (utterly wrong as horseback weapon). A menavlion should perform more like a pike:
Also, the loadouts in my opinion I would choose a line more leaning towards the vlandian voulgier than the aserai guard, endowing him with a shield perk and all the rest... take a look at this image.
Also, the loadouts in my opinion I would choose a line more leaning towards the vlandian voulgier than the aserai guard, endowing him with a shield perk and all the rest... take a look at this image.
I repeat again... Menavlion's archetype/class is interesting for the currently implemented class system (notice the irony). As I have said ad nauseam, the current use of the menavlion in my opinion is wrong (utterly wrong as horseback weapon). A menavlion should perform more like a pike:
Also, the loadouts in my opinion I would choose a line more leaning towards the vlandian voulgier than the aserai guard, endowing him with a shield perk and all the rest... take a look at this image.
A horse-menavlion is too long lasting joke from TW, . Personally i would forbid use of any 2h weapon on horse at all (except spears of course), this would make bastard weapons fit cavalry (1h on horse and 2h mode on land)
I love your loadouts aswell, tho i would replace pilum with 1h axe as pilum doesnt really works well with this class imo, also to evade all these skirmish mode whine about nukesticks (could result in another javeliner-classes massacre as back in autumn of 2020)
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Equipping a cavalry unit with a menavlion is absurd imho and I'm not the only one who thinks so. That said, I am not in favour of restricting the use of weapons to 2h in a generalised way but rather limiting their use to, let's say, " a more ethical" performance. For example the glaive; for khuzait is interesting for the mere fact that this weapon fits well with the faction archetype. However, before eliminating its use as I said; I would adduct/nerf the swing angles and the dimensions of the weapon itself so that the player must raise the skill both in its use (weapon) and in her/his abilities to handle the horse and how this weapon works on it. Something like what I commented here.
Although fun is supposed to trump realism, there is one thing I don't like and it has been said several times. To the question, should an infantry/ranged class have the same weapon proficiency on top of a stolen horse as a cavalry class? my answer is NO. Obviously it is legal to take a horse to flee a situation, however grabbing a horse as a peasant, a berserker or a fiann and going wild playing a different role than what the class system supposedly stipulates... I see that as an abusive use.
As for loadouts. If I were to take the pilum out of the equation, I might replace it with the Cataphract's two-handed axe (by the way...a 2h axe for this unit, I don't see it) in a slightly smaller version. Certainly wouldn't be a bad idea imho.
With the removal of crush through, I wonder if it'd be more productive to replace the Heavy Menavlion perk with a Greatsword perk:
Perk 1
Greatsword: Greatly reduced range for a much faster weapon
Long Menavlion: Essentially a swingable pike, increased vulnerability at point blank range
Improved Armor: Increased survivability. A solid option for newer players
I do agree that the pila should be removed since it's the only worthwhile perk worth taking. IMO, it should be restricted to the recruit so as to not overlap with his role as a zero cost cavalry counter.
Perk 1
Greatsword: Greatly reduced range for a much faster weapon
Long Menavlion: Essentially a swingable pike, increased vulnerability at point blank range
Improved Armor: Increased survivability. A solid option for newer players
I do agree that the pila should be removed since it's the only worthwhile perk worth taking. IMO, it should be restricted to the recruit so as to not overlap with his role as a zero cost cavalry counter.
Greatsword? For Byzantian empire units? Why not adding bardiche or even chinesse firestaffs afterall
No offence, but you arent really into history, arent you
And no, dont say "its not a historical game so lets go full fantasy", Mount and Blade games were always semi historical-accurate game with channged names of real-life nations back then (Swadia - HRE, Rhodocks - Venetia, Nords = Nords, Vaegirs - Russian Tsardom, etc)
If i would go with close-ranged 2h weapon for empire, only 2 options are viable for this roman theme - bastard sword (lowly used by byzantians)
and 2h axe (not used by romans but used by Russian and Scandinavian mercenaries in Byzantia), and i dont like both of them
IMO empire dont need a close range shock troop with axes, swords etc, as we can see Khuzaits living without that on MP and doing very well right now, biggest problem in Empire is low flexibilty of menavliaton, he has literally 3(!) types of menavlion that barely different, and no any good sidearm for close range fight
Contributing, empire recruit also kinda sucks in close range (3 types of sword, no axes/maces/2h compared to other light inf) and Legionere has worst sword/bastard sword of all heavy infantry, it just makes Empire worst close ranged faction
Compared to them, Khuzait doesnt has shock infantry, but they have default (!) maces on rabble and archer, VERY good longsword and heavy mace perks for spear infantry (which also are much cheaper then legioners) and OP glaive for Khan'sguard
In my opinion a two-handed sword would be out of place for any of the imperial classes (and....cof see aberrations like the fiann cof ninjarobinhood). The thing is, I could very well see removing that pila and turning it into a Short Two handed double-bitted tzikourion (axe)... the combinations can be very interesting.
So then...
Default: menavlion (working as a pike) + spatha
Perk 1: longer menavlion (working as a pike) / shield / improved armor
Perk 2: imperial javelins / 2h tzikourion / Mace
So then...
Default: menavlion (working as a pike) + spatha
Perk 1: longer menavlion (working as a pike) / shield / improved armor
Perk 2: imperial javelins / 2h tzikourion / Mace
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