Menavlion in Multiplayer

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banipo

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I believe the Menavlion is a bit overpowered in multiplayer siege battles. I just scored 53 kills in one battle, just running around swinging it at people with it's huge range and almost one-shot one-kill ability. I suggest a small damage reduction for balacing purposes maybe?

Kind regards
 

bblzd

Veteran
M&B
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Shock troops are supposed to be effective up close but are countered by archers and wide open areas. Balance suggestions should be made off a wide range of stats rather than a limited experience, which could just be down to the skill of your opponents at a time when many are still learning the game. In my experience Menavs are not even the strongest shocktroop type in the game at this time.

There's 3x menavilion pole weapons to choose from but which do you believe should be reduced in damage: regular, heavy, long, or all?
 

flavberg

Knight
WBNWVCM&BWF&S
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Shock troops are supposed to be effective up close but are countered by archers and wide open areas. Balance suggestions should be made off a wide range of stats rather than a limited experience, which could just be down to the skill of your opponents at a time when many are still learning the game. In my experience Menavs are not even the strongest shocktroop type in the game at this time.

There's 3x menavilion pole weapons to choose from but which do you believe should be reduced in damage: regular, heavy, long, or all?
^ This.

Also, they're extremely slow weapons. You should have no issue with spamming someone with a menavlion and beating them quite easily.
 

RCC_God

Knight
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I totally disagreee menavlion is definitely in need of balance. its like everything good about the bardiche with more damage, more range, and more speed
 

banipo

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I will clarify. I was specifically talking about the heavy menavlion, but to some extent is probably also applies to the others. The issue is the combination of its damage output combined with the lenght of the weapon and the circumstances they are used in. In skirmish mode it will be less usefull than in sieges. Indeed, it's rather slow and impractical in a duel.

However the circumstances of a siege make it an absolute god tier weapon that in my opinion needs nerfing. I think that judging how good the most skilled players interact with a mode is a perfect reflection how the game goes for all. In a siege skill should be negated by the circumstances making it even enjoyable for newer players. I find this the cast for most shock troops, except for the menavs.

I can just run around, avoid getting cornered or even closed in by anyone, and still swing wildly around me one-shotting infantry and cavalry alike, armoured and non-armoured. It's the reach + the damage output + so many people being around that don't expect or are able to counter a 2 meter pole to suddenly one-shot them from an angle they hadn't even considered.

They can make the infantry unit more damage resistant, and reduce the output on the weapon for example. But in my opinion, something must be done.
 

Hans 77

Sergeant at Arms
WBWF&SVC
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The damage output of all menavlions is way too high. Plus, why is this weapon -which is lengthier than every spear and lance, able to be swung from side to side?
 

Nadata

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The damage output of all menavlions is way too high. Plus, why is this weapon -which is lengthier than every spear and lance, able to be swung from side to side?
This makes it even more unbalanced if you get on a horse. Insta-killing people left and right. I got 60+ kills in a short siege match doing this with a Courser.
 

Electre

Regular
M&BWBWF&SNW
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Yeah, even the regular menavlion in TDM is a serial killer. I think it also has to do with the lack of friendly fire, as you just swing carelessly if you have an opening (you either hit the enemy or a mate while at safe distance); and with the quantity of new players. It is, however, a very satisfactory weapon to use, in the good sense: the sound of the hit, the lethality despite its speed, and even the looks.
 

Zyakan

Recruit
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Friendly fire would be great for balancing menavlion, while keeping its stats.
 

banipo

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At the same time, the other polearms can be stupid too. A Khuzait rider with his polearm can one-hit me, but if they ride into my spear at full speed they survive; same for the horse
 

bm01

Veteran
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Friendly fire would be great for balancing menavlion, while keeping its stats.
Only if the damage is reflected on the user, otherwise it wouldn't change anything, except frustrate the teammate.
 

phasic

Recruit
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I agree it's OP. The problem I've noticed is how damage is equal when you're not even hit with the blade. In Warband, my usual (and sensical) counter to two-handed was to get up very tight against them so that they don't have leverage in their swings. This seems to have entirely disappeared in Bannerlord. I may be wrong, though. There does seem to be a mechanic for weapons getting blocked by objects, walls, and teammates, but if none of that connects it seems like it's full damage regardless of where on the weapon you are hit.

I think another way to resolve this would be to include friendly fire. People would be less inclined to spam swings if it meant killing teammates. I liked the need to be more calculating in Warband when friendly fire was on. I'd also like the ability to accidentally kill teammates who consistently get in my way, lol.
 

Hans 77

Sergeant at Arms
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I've noticed is how damage is equal when you're not even hit with the blade
You're not the only one noticing this. The menavlion is routinely getting 1 hit kills even when swung from point blank range (and at the start or end of its swing, not sweet spot). Which is strange because my 1H sword or axe commonly glances for 5 or less damage but this super long goofy stick has the touch of death even at face-hugging distance.

People are even finding a way to implement the menavlion's op strength in competitive play like Skirmish Mode. In matches it's now common to see people go menavlion infantry and drop their menavlion for their cataphract teammates (who already go without shield), and as broken as the menavlion is on foot, it's utterly devastating on horseback. Even then, in team melee fights having a guy in the back with a menavlion taking pot shots is also just brutal, getting caught by any part of its swing usually spells instant death.

Shouldn't the menavlion just behave like a pike? With you know, only stabs? It already has incredible reach. The fact that it can be swung in and of itself is ridiculous and silly, and couple that with its lethal damage output and you have currently the most broken weapon in Bannerlord.

Also, I don't want to bring up the fun-realism debate, because that's a rabbit hole we've already been down, but in general the combat in M&B is "grounded" in realism, while realism is also not dogmatically adhered to (this is a good thing). The weapons in Warband that had high damage output had either considerable mass or high speed, or both (great hammer, morningstar, 1H battle axe, war axe, 2H mace/sword, bardiche, elite scimitar). There was a modicum of real-world science that could justify the amount of damage they did.

When you factor in things like force (mass x acceleration), leverage, circular motion, and weight distribution, the menavlion's current functionality makes no sense. It swings very slow, but there's not a lot of weight at the tip of it relative to the whole -it's just a really long wooden stick, and plus it's extreme length affects the leverage its user has on it. This is why when you first see someone swinging a menavlion, your mind -which probably has an innate understanding of physics even if you don't know the math behind it, most likely doesn't see it as that big of threat, then a second later you're scratching your head wondering why you died.
 
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Mynes

Knight at Arms
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This weapon is just too overpowered, I don't think I've ever lost a match when I had the chance to use it. I've also noticed that the hit lands even if you don't aim properly on your target. It is just like a sweeper requiring no accuracy whatsoever.
 

pygc1

Sergeant at Arms
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this weapon is a SPEAR, why does it deal so much slashing damage. I should see more people poking with menavlion rather than swing it. Makes no sense physically. Also many players abuse this weapon by running away while swinging, and I can't catch up to them.
 

Mynes

Knight at Arms
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this weapon is a SPEAR, why does it deal so much slashing damage. I should see more people poking with menavlion rather than swing it. Makes no sense physically. Also many players abuse this weapon by running away while swinging, and I can't catch up to them.
True, swinging it around makes no sense and a perk allowing to use this weapon on horseback is also dumb.

"The menaulion or menavlion was a heavy spear with a length of 2.7 to 3.6 metres with a thick shaft, used by the Byzantine infantry as early as the 10th century AD, against enemy heavy cavalry."
 
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Falrock

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Menavlion is fine, I think they just need to nerf cavalry. Menavlion + a horse = OP. They need to make the horses easier to kill with polearms.
 

drewd006

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Not only are these weapons broken the swing damage is unrealistic. Since when does a spear do more damage by a swing than by a thrust? How can a good swing one shot a man in armor? Let’s be real. This would not happen. I’m fine with a swing doing some slashing damage due to the sides, but this should be no more than 25 damage max. At this point most players just pick the menavlion and spam swings with no consideration to thrusting. This is a major exploit. Noobs love it cause it is an easy way to feel like you are skilled when you can cut down many opponents with luck. This weapon is basically cancer
 

Mushbeast

Sergeant at Arms
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This weapon has been disgustingly OP since day one and these days with crush through, you literally see packs of menav soldiers spamming only overhead attacks. This weapon is a joke, watch peoples fighting style with it, literally involves spinning around in circles swinging the menav wildly hoping to get one small brush against you for that insta kill.

It's also just straight up better than spears at being a spear, and for anti-cav purposes.