Melee : Totally Underpowered (MP)

[Bragg]

yh headpike works pikes just do work but horseback lances and sabres dont there just weak in my view

 

[dochtorgajo]

They could have at least removed idiots jumping over heads of horsemen like in mm mod or Vikingr. And do something interesting with horses no way a man on his foot can still outpace a horse easily.

 

[Queen Azalyn]

wonders what game he played as she's been killed plenty of times in meele often in one hit takes me no more then 1-2 hits to kill someone with my claymore

 

[samipso]

If you use tap loading you could fire a bullet every 20 seconds. That's still not as fast as you can relead in multiplayer.
http://youtu.be/Pvc86ggLUY4

 

[King Harkinian]

If you think you're unhappy about this, imagine how the whole cultures and societies felt who had invested much in traditions that involved swords and cavalry?  When a dirt poor peasant can end your deal with a mass produced firearm, you become a lot less special.

Mass production didn't exist at the time -- heck, there wasn't even such a thing as a "factory".

I'm sick and tired of always seeing the same old hackneyed tropes when talking about the early modern period.

 

[Night Ninja]

The current speeds for cutting swords are far too slow in general, but they tweaked that for some nebulous ideal of balance, so I can't be ****ed to address that. 

My main issue with melee is that block crushing on two handed weapons doesn't work properly. AFAIK the chances of that happening are tied to the weight disparity between the attacking weapon and the defending weapon, so the current stats are obviously inappropriate.

 

[Votadini]

If you think you're unhappy about this, imagine how the whole cultures and societies felt who had invested much in traditions that involved swords and cavalry?  When a dirt poor peasant can end your deal with a mass produced firearm, you become a lot less special.

Mass production didn't exist at the time -- heck, there wasn't even such a thing as a "factory".

I'm sick and tired of always seeing the same old hackneyed tropes when talking about the early modern period.

Maybe the mass production wasn't correct but the rest of what he said was spot on.

Pretty much sums up the late Sengoku Jidai era.

Oda Nobunaga used firearms extensively as one farmer with a gun could take out (in theory) a samurai elite who spent his whole life training for battle, costing his employer a fortune in rice to feed and pay - as opposed to the peasant who's motivation for battle was "if you don't fight for me I will stab you in the face".

Evidence: See "Battle of Nagashino" wherein Oda Nobunaga used guns to devastating effect against the legendary Takeda Cavalry.

Choice quote from http://www.samurai-archives.com/ban.html:

Oda Nobunaga gave the important job of controlling the 3,000 peasant-footsoldier matchlockmen to seven members of his personal bodyguard. They managed to keep the sometimes unreliable ashigaru in formation. The Takeda, on the other hand, had their best commanders with the forward cavalry units. Usually this worked since the cavalry led the charge, but it was the cavalry that was to suffer devastating casualties, and Katsuyori lost many of his most valuable commanders this way.

Basically the same all around the world as the gun replaced the sword.

Still, when professional sword troops eg. Katana Samurai reached the ashigaru (peasant) lines it was a massacre in hand to hand so it balanced out.

So basically, although the weapons weren't "mass produced" by today's standards - guns around the world certainly were produced en masse to fuel the ever-present warfare in feudal Japan alone.

 

[Aeon221]

If you think you're unhappy about this, imagine how the whole cultures and societies felt who had invested much in traditions that involved swords and cavalry?  When a dirt poor peasant can end your deal with a mass produced firearm, you become a lot less special.

Mass production didn't exist at the time -- heck, there wasn't even such a thing as a "factory".

I'm sick and tired of always seeing the same old hackneyed tropes when talking about the early modern period.

Not true. The Venetian Arsenal was mass producing ships back in the early 12th century and may very well be the source of the word.

Also, there are tons of examples of Roman era mass production of everything from grain (at enormous industrial mills) to pottery to weapons, in what would most likely be considered a somewhat primitive factory today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbegal_aqueduct_and_mill

And don't forget that the Romans famously assembled ships during the Punic Wars from numbered standardized prefab parts built all over the place.

 

[Aeon221]

The current speeds for cutting swords are far too slow in general, but they tweaked that for some nebulous ideal of balance, so I can't be ****ed to address that. 

My main issue with melee is that block crushing on two handed weapons doesn't work properly. AFAIK the chances of that happening are tied to the weight disparity between the attacking weapon and the defending weapon, so the current stats are obviously inappropriate.

Yeah I've read the same, I'm guessing that's the cause of the lack of crush.

Seems to work out ok, as the claymore is an excellent tool for killdozering.

 

[StinkyMcGirk]

Many weapons are underpowered.  I think every 2h weapon right now is terrible... and most pole arms are pretty bad as well.  If you equip your infantry properly and command them properly, though, they are far from underpowered.

Try:  Mass European mercenaries with medium or heavy body armor, decent helmets (30 armor +), Pikes.  Bunch them up close, and either hide them behind a hill until the enemy gets close, or put them behind some spread out musket lines so that the enemy A.I. targets your muskets first... then slowly advance.  If the enemy cavalry charges, your pikes will thrash them, if they just get closer and closer, charge the pike mob out to thrash their musket line.

Basically, pike superiority on your side negates both the enemy infantry and cavalry as long as your pikes are bunched up as close as possible.

This works in multiplayer as well.  You just need to be clever and never advance as a mass into a lot of gun-fire.  Wait for teammate cav to engage some muskets before you get close... or tell your men to hold position a little bit away from the enemy infantry line so that you can focus more pikes on his individual troops.

Also try:  Any kind of shield + 1h piercing or blunt weapon infantry.  You want to either have such infantry WITHOUT any ranged weapons or commanded not to use them so that they approach pike infantry blocking.  These units break through siege lines and fight in close quarters very well, but you need to make sure to equip them with weapons that have no thrust.  This is basically just equipping the A.I. with as simple of weapons as possible so that it cannot mess up.  Think of it as equipping untrained soldiers with as simple of an arsenal as possible so that they cannot mess up.

 

[samipso]

If you think you're unhappy about this, imagine how the whole cultures and societies felt who had invested much in traditions that involved swords and cavalry?  When a dirt poor peasant can end your deal with a mass produced firearm, you become a lot less special.

Mass production didn't exist at the time -- heck, there wasn't even such a thing as a "factory".

I'm sick and tired of always seeing the same old hackneyed tropes when talking about the early modern period.

Still, when professional sword troops eg. Katana Samurai reached the ashigaru (peasant) lines it was a massacre in hand to hand so it balanced out.

Pretty much boils down to a change of tactics and shifting the importance of cold steel to guns. Instead of having guns as special troops, cold steel troops fill that role.

 

[King Harkinian]

Not true. The Venetian Arsenal was mass producing ships back in the early 12th century and may very well be the source of the word.

Also, there are tons of examples of Roman era mass production of everything from grain (at enormous industrial mills) to pottery to weapons, in what would most likely be considered a somewhat primitive factory today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbegal_aqueduct_and_mill

And don't forget that the Romans famously assembled ships during the Punic Wars from numbered standardized prefab parts built all over the place.

Of course there have been previous examples of mass production -- most notably Roman fabricae in the late Roman Empire -- but in the early modern era, the first actual "factories" would be royally sponsored manufactories, mostly in the late-17th and 18th century, but even those remained pretty small-scale.

The main method of production was the domestic system and the putting out system, which were a far cry from mass production or factory work. The early modern period was, in the West, a largely pre-industrial society.

Still, when professional sword troops eg. Katana Samurai reached the ashigaru (peasant) lines it was a massacre in hand to hand so it balanced out.

You do realize that there never was such a soldier as a "Katana Samurai"? Shogun: Total War II is woefully inaccurate in that regard, don't use it as a source. Samurai always carried katana as a sidearm, but it was never their main weapon (that mostly being either a polearm or a bow) and you wouldn't see units of samurai charging into battle only armed with katanas.

So basically, although the weapons weren't "mass produced" by today's standards - guns around the world certainly were produced en masse to fuel the ever-present warfare in feudal Japan alone.

But these guns were produced by individual gunsmiths without industrial standards (which is what defines mass production). You could produce large amounts of goods via a domestic or putting out system, but it still doesn't qualify as mass production.

 

[Archonsod]

I was under the impression that flintlocks (none of the rifles in WFaS appear to be matchlock) had a fire rate of between 2 and 3 rounds per minute (30 seconds to 20 seconds to reload)?

Depends on whether they're loading cartridges or loose powder; loose powder taking longer. Matchlocks could certainly meet two rounds per minute at a push, but since they only carried enough powder for twelve rounds it would be rather unlikely they'd ever want to be firing that quickly.

Because the "and Sword" part of the title is very misleading.

Not when combined with the "Mount" part, no.

As it is, melee infantry are near useless in multiplayer

They were nearly useless at the time. The only reason non-firearm infantry were fielded in the period was to fend off cavalry, other than that they were obsolete.

That said, I think the game should be more about the guns than the melee - but melee should have some kind of advantage.

They get pikes. Rather useful against cavalry (who are rather useful against muskets, which are rather useful against infantry ...)

you can fight arrows with shield but you cant do anything with a bullet

Shields work against bullets too FYI.

Musket are really easy to use  even for a new comer , and the reticule is just a horizontal so , you just have to aim and  it ends there.

By that token, melee weapons are even easier since you just have to click the mouse button. You're ignoring what some would call the crucial part of the process - hitting the opponent.

Only the muskets/carabines/pistols where it says Miguelet or Dutch are of the flintlock type.

The Miquelet is the closest to a flintlock, but even this isn't a true flintlock. Not sure what the Dutch guns are meant to represent, I suspect snaphaunce.

But these guns were produced by individual gunsmiths without industrial standards (which is what defines mass production). You could produce large amounts of goods via a domestic or putting out system, but it still doesn't qualify as mass production.

There was no patterning, but the contract system could produce over 100 muskets per week quite easily in England alone, which would certainly sound like mass production to me. I'd have said production to industrial standards would have been a defining factor in industrialised production myself though

 

[Votadini]

Still, when professional sword troops eg. Katana Samurai reached the ashigaru (peasant) lines it was a massacre in hand to hand so it balanced out.

You do realize that there never was such a soldier as a "Katana Samurai"? Shogun: Total War II is woefully inaccurate in that regard, don't use it as a source. Samurai always carried katana as a sidearm, but it was never their main weapon (that mostly being either a polearm or a bow) and you wouldn't see units of samurai charging into battle only armed with katanas.

Yes, I am aware the Katana was mainly a status symbol - particularly towards the end of the era but most people here do not. I find keeping these historical arguments are simple as possible is necessary to get any sort of conclusion from em xD

Also was trying to dodge the "Bow vs Gun" bullet by not mentioning the Bow was a major part of Samurai culture.

But these guns were produced by individual gunsmiths without industrial standards (which is what defines mass production). You could produce large amounts of goods via a domestic or putting out system, but it still doesn't qualify as mass production.

Yeh I said you were right in that regard.

 

[King Harkinian]

There was no patterning, but the contract system could produce over 100 muskets per week quite easily in England alone, which would certainly sound like mass production to me. I'd have said production to industrial standards would have been a defining factor in industrialised production myself though

You are correct, of course, and we're back to the putting-out system I was talking about earlier. The British army obtained its small arms from contracts with private manufacturers around London and Birmingham well into the 19th century, which was a highly decentralized, small workshop system which used highly skilled labour rather than a factory system.

The sheer number of workshops involved in this system makes the actual number of muskets made per week by one given workshop quite small, unlike in a mass production scenario in which one given workshop would attempt to produce as many units as possible; this was merely compensated for by contracting with a large amount of private manufacturers to make up for the slow production rate. That's why I disagree with the mass production label.

 

[Archonsod]

The problem is they operated on a guild system rather than a more modern industrial one, so classifying an individual workshop as being meaningful is a bit off. There wouldn't be many which produced the entire gun, the order was placed with the guild, the guild obtained the necessary components from various sources (barrels would be cast in one place, wooden stocks crafted in another) and the gun itself assembled by the gunsmiths. Really, to make any sensible comparison to industrial production you'd need to take into account the guild as the production entity rather than the workshops.

 

[Bragg]

interesting but really getting offtopic of melee is underpowered

 

[lord halt]

my favourite melee is the big funking samurai sword that you get from thir bu that's the only one there is they need new weapons we need to make our own weapons

 

[lord halt]

oh they need a sword that can shoot musket rounds to that would be cool [size=12pt][/size]

 

[MrNomNom]

Spoiler

my favourite melee is the big funking samurai sword that you get from thir bu that's the only one there is they need new weapons we need to make our own weapons

What in the world?