Melee cavalry is underpowered at the moment (Suggestions updated)

Users who are viewing this thread

Since i couldn't post it in the book section because some unfortunately sluggish laggs! im sharing it here instead to also educate or more to pick out my mindset in how i think using cavs for those who are interested. Did some mistakes when i overextended my group by getting in to hot but overall i only lost 4 men out of 20 but we banked 9k denars from it so was well worth it :grin:

 
I still have to agree with OP that the melee cavalry are a bit weak at the moment. I think the biggest thing I've noticed at least when I've ordered the charge on the enemies rear is that the cavalry abandon formation and scatter like a herd of cats. It destroys the morale penalty (which should be devastating, especially to green troops) the enemy formation would have incurred for the charge. I think the charge command shouldn't cancel the formation command and there should be a FFA or every man for himself command for chasing down enemies.

When knockdowns get implemented I think we'll get a fuller picture of how strong or weak the cavalry really is. I'm hoping there will be trample damage added for those knocked down in a charge.

Something else that would help with the balance that would favor infantry/archers are more maps with narrow bottlenecks or high bluffs, or rivers with only 2 ways across (a ford and a bridge). All of the maps are pretty easy for cavalry to get around on at the moment. Even the ones by the mountains are easily traversed. I've often find myself having to brace my legionnaire shieldwalls on a slight hill with a rock on one side because there is nothing else on the map to use.

I think having a greater distinction between green tiers (1-3) and veteran tiers (4-6) in their morale regarding an incoming charge and their ability to regroup could also add to the ebb and flow of the battles. Its expected that a force of peasants would cut and run before a charge and not look back, while a legion even if they took a hit to morale would regroup.

So, I find it odd that everyone brings up this "fact" that horses won't charge large groups of people. Though most horse charging videos are usually taken off Youtube due to violence you can still find a few modern charges (there is one of a protest outside of British parliament as I recall) and you'll find the horses have no problem charging forward into the crowds. They don't rear until pulled back by the rider. The crowds part before them because people instinctively don't want to get run over, horses are substantial creatures. The wooden signs that are getting waved or thrown around/at them have little effect on them. I think people try and make horses reason like a human might and that just isn't reality.

Horses can be trained to charge forward at things. If you set up a training regimen where the horse runs through two wooden(or straw) constructs that look like men and give it a treat each time they succeed I'd put money on it that the horse will eventually learn to charge a group of people without hesitation. Horses are also herd/social animals by nature. So when they are running with their herd they aren't contemplating the finer points of life, or if that guy up ahead is wielding a spear of a particular length, all its thinking is "I'm with my herd, and I'll get a treat if I successfully run through this obstacle"
 
the problem isnt the units but the ones whos using them. AI command or AI in general arent smart enough to use them as they charge them in to larger forces at the wrong timing with spears everywhere and enemy is focusing on them as well...And since spears also stops horses they are an hot target by all surrounding them. However they can be excellent as well at times even on AI mode but you will get more losses there. They sure can take hits though and are excellent at killing to, but sometimes since they need slight adjustment in aiming they are not,,,,However they can also land head shots riding fast on ground troops and aiming shouldnt be that underestimated as they can be accurat. Heck i even seen one horseman landing an headshot in full speed with an small one handed axe...now thats something :smile: Using the right terrain also matters and its something both Ai and some players stuggle with understanding...However the pricetag on them can be a bit steap...I have no problem making money as well as maintaining them training new ones but still the upgrade for each unit if you get cheap warhorses are still around 800-1k(+the upgrade cost on around 400 i think in total) denar tag since you dont get your reg horse back in the upgrade which i think you should. But from my understanding using an medic they die harder then the regular soldiers to. They could balance this by either higher that value a little or make em cheaper to upgrade if nothing since youre paying for the horses. Last thing i want though is also not Swadian knights all over again
 
Last edited:
...

So, I find it odd that everyone brings up this "fact" that horses won't charge large groups of people. Though most horse charging videos are usually taken off Youtube due to violence you can still find a few modern charges (there is one of a protest outside of British parliament as I recall) and you'll find the horses have no problem charging forward into the crowds. They don't rear until pulled back by the rider. The crowds part before them because people instinctively don't want to get run over, horses are substantial creatures. The wooden signs that are getting waved or thrown around/at them have little effect on them. I think people try and make horses reason like a human might and that just isn't reality.

Horses can be trained to charge forward at things. If you set up a training regimen where the horse runs through two wooden(or straw) constructs that look like men and give it a treat each time they succeed I'd put money on it that the horse will eventually learn to charge a group of people without hesitation. Horses are also herd/social animals by nature. So when they are running with their herd they aren't contemplating the finer points of life, or if that guy up ahead is wielding a spear of a particular length, all its thinking is "I'm with my herd, and I'll get a treat if I successfully run through this obstacle"

Sometimes they did and sometimes not. Horses have no problems to bump into single humans at low speed. They can be trained to ran into bigger groups of people, as modern tests by professional reenactors proved.

But beware. It's quite dangerous also for the horse to hit objects with high speed, as horses are not made of iron. It is also quite a difference wether the people on foot have pointy objects or not, although the performance of spears or bajonets should not be overestimated (that's the reason for pikes as most useful anti-cav weapons).

So usually formations were not destroyed by horses physically charging into the humans. Sometimes it happened, as several examples of 18th and 19th well documented cavalry charges show. But usually it did not happen. If the infantrymen did not keep firm order and fought with all they had, resolute cavalry could break into small holes in the formation and destroy it. If the infantry did keep good order, estimated success of cavalry attacks was at 10% or below.

It is quite difficult to impossible to bring this widely moral based struggle of cavalry and infantry into a video game. I don't know any game doing it right or even reasonably well.

Cavalry in Bannerlord should keep formation above all. They should be able to devastate archers with one charge. They should not be able to knock back and damage melee infantry in formation except the latter move. I doubt that good cavalry combat will be achieved, however.
 
They should be able to devastate archers with one charge
You guys live in an fantasy world yet you talk history facts xD So you think 10 Cavalry men in real life rode in from lets say 100 meter against 20-30 archers without any problems then swoop em all down in one swing.,...got it, The old saying theories is just theories when you sit behind those books until you hit the real battlefield. then life strikes you to the face
 
You guys live in an fantasy world yet you talk history facts xD So you think 10 Cavalry men in real life rode in from lets say 100 meter against 20-30 archers without any problems then swoop em all down in one swing.,...got it, The old saying theories is just theories when you sit behind those books until you hit the real battlefield. then life strikes you to the face
Arrows can't penetrate certain types of armor (even then chain mail with a thick gambeson would stop the arrows from killing the rider), only late longbows could cause a few dents on armor, but given there was gambeson underneath, it was like a "poke" (never enough to really cause any damage to the person). Agincourt basically was about morale and the annoyance towards knights from a shower of longbows shooting at them non-stop. You should delve deeper into historical combat researches, there's a lot of people doing it for years, on a complementary note most people fail to account for bio-mechanics and clever fighting capabilities from humans too when trying to understand historical combat, at minimum, to even start grasping the idea one must have practice a few years of some martial art, and delve a bit into MMA, most never did.

I've had years of long discussions about subjects under this theme here in TW forums, and you are deluded by believing a group of knights couldn't wipe archers with some "ease". The charge itself is never a rush and stay thing, they would do "drive bys" with lances and spears, there's not enough time for any of the archers to react properly, along with the fact that their arrows would not be as effective. 100 meters for a racehorse is 5.1 seconds, given modern breeds are faster and more specialized, we can guess that medieval horses would be up to 3 seconds slower at most, try to shoot a riding mofo with a bow in under 8 seconds while the guy is charging at you with a pointy stick, and remember that the mofo is wearing a ****ing armor, as well as the horse. You'd simply turn around and try to run = dead or severely wounded if any of the knights caught up to you, resulting in the best chance of survival, or you could stay there like a moron and take the spear to the face while you clumsily try to "reload" the bow

Both guys up there made valid points, and it's true that the game fails to re-enact any sort of realism pertaining a really wide range of factors, but then again any and all videogames fails at that, it's nearly impossible to simulate real combat, honestly I think it's completely impossible because of the amount of tids and bits that videogame control inputs can't even account for that of which would be used in combat. Just for a simple sword play we'd need leg inputs, arms inputs, waste input, then a regulator input to measure force applied to the movements of each body part. That's like 10 buttons to be pressed at a single movement. Don't even get me started on Jiu-Jitsu, that one is simply impossible to make a video-game out of (7 years purple belt I am, same thing for Judo, which was 11 years, brown belt, part of the pre-olympic brazilian team when I've quit out of feeling like I've had no childhood).
Back to sword play, you'd also have to add changing movements to each limb, so a sword is made of a swing and a thrust at all times, the thrusting movement is paramount for cutting, so each swing would need to be followed up by a thrusting movement of either pulling or pushing the sword. That's just ridiculous to try and emulate in game controls.

What I think you are correct about is that the idea of wanting realism in games is quite ridiculous, but then again having your cavalry being ineffective is not realistic, but it's also not fun at all.
 
Last edited:
-10 Cavalry men in real life rode in from lets say 100 meter against 20-30 archers without any problems then swoop em all down in one swing -

Was this statement i was talking about getting all those archers in one swing like the archers where not humans doing human things to survive...If we wanted this game to be real life it would be more complexed that we ever could have imagined since we cant... before just that situation had unfolded....

I saw this problem all the time when i was working as an welder...:Engineers coming out with papers and plans with this and that...but in reality theres always (well almost because it depends since its an two way operation to) something going wrong that needed to be adjusted even if the math and planning was correct, even in our minds looking at things... sometimes not

I say it again your cav isnt being ineffective...its the users and Ai.s whos mindsets thinking they are like running tanks, also thinking they can run them against people who dont have AT weapons, of which they have (pleanty of it to)
But then we also have this constant fight ....CAV vs SPEARS who are constantly racing each other up and gonna ruin the game play in the end if it continues since we also have the other classes. It doesnt mean im against spear wall, better targeting system, tactics and stuff.... but only buffs and such since i can see where it will land if it continues. An battlefield filled with Achilles clones vs Swadian Knights
 
Last edited:
Both guys up there made valid points, and it's true that the game fails to re-enact any sort of realism pertaining a really wide range of factors, but then again any and all videogames fails at that, it's nearly impossible to simulate real combat, honestly I think it's completely impossible because of the amount of tids and bits that videogame control inputs can't even account for that of which would be used in combat.

It isn't that it is impossible.

It is that achieving that result doesn't result in a player having more fun.
 


All my cav units survived this even if they went down against an faction that are best at anti cavs and in close quarters which is cavs worst habitat to fight in (on horse that is). So think my theory that they are harder to die after a battle stands or i got really lucky. Please someone technical that can verify this since it has been tingling my curiosity now and then

Another one which was an bad showcase since i forgot my plan to attack on two sides..:but still you can see how they take them down even if the inf is concentrating on them and that one cav tanking it like an boss against 3 battanians as i had one unit in defensive mode and the other following which was bad commanding from me
 
Last edited:
You guys live in an fantasy world yet you talk history facts xD So you think 10 Cavalry men in real life rode in from lets say 100 meter against 20-30 archers without any problems then swoop em all down in one swing.,...got it, The old saying theories is just theories when you sit behind those books until you hit the real battlefield. then life strikes you to the face
whots di problem?
 
You guys live in an fantasy world yet you talk history facts xD So you think 10 Cavalry men in real life rode in from lets say 100 meter against 20-30 archers without any problems then swoop em all down in one swing.,...got it, The old saying theories is just theories when you sit behind those books until you hit the real battlefield. then life strikes you to the face
also check dis battanian archer channel https://www.youtube.com/user/Joe8Gibbs/videos
ye archers is cool n stuff but they were totally usless against heavy armoured soldiers.
 
whots di problem?

Please send me a video of 10 real cav men trying to kill 20 archers in one charge...I want to see an real battlefield playing out in life or death as it should not some men playing with stuff in their backyard drinking tea
 
Last edited:
Please send me a video of 10 real cav men trying to kill 20 archers in one charge...I want to see an real battlefield playing out in life or death as it should not some men in an backyard
well this one is never exists i guess
 
exactly as the generals strategies never goes as planned either
your insistence is cute haha
Well, it's nearly impossible for 10 knights to kill 20 archers in a single charge, yes, but it's totally possible to eliminate that unit in one charge if they get either wounded or run away... Most battles in early middle ages were that, people running away or being taken prisoners, there were very few in-battle casualties. Those were for late middle ages with massive armies, and even than it wasn't as high as in the game or in movies. Only imbeciles would not yield seeing they'd have lost the battle, I bet there were some, but most of those were "Darwinized" over the years, though I believe this strain of genes is back in action in modern day lol
 
your insistence is cute haha
Well, it's nearly impossible for 10 knights to kill 20 archers in a single charge, yes, but it's totally possible to eliminate that unit in one charge if they get either wounded or run away... Most battles in early middle ages were that, people running away or being taken prisoners, there were very few in-battle casualties. Those were for late middle ages with massive armies, and even than it wasn't as high as in the game or in movies.
very true.... but what type of game that would be xD
 
A wargame.
People running all the time and with little men, and people bleeding out and being out of combat on one bad hit ? Sure prison game with diplomatic ransom manager...could be interesting
 
Back
Top Bottom