Melee cavalry is underpowered at the moment (Suggestions updated)

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In an open field with no obstructions cavalry charge should be damn scary and it certainly worked in history as well. Of course, most people in history learned NOT to give such an easy target.

The Battle of the Golden Spurs is a perfect example. The Flemish knew that a French counter-attack to their siege was likely and found a nice flat field... and proceeded to riddle it with ditches, drained nearby rivers to make marshland and even dug pit traps covered with branches and leaves. The French arrived to find the flat field they had expected crossed by several small streams and tried to put bundled branches over the streams to let the horses cross more easily but the Flemish were guarding against that and stopped the French attempts to fill in the streams.The French felt they HAD to give battle even in the unfavourable situation and lost badly.

Agincourt the English constructed wooden barricades and earthworks as well as using the already existing marshy ground.

At Crecy, the English were at the top of a ridge and again dug pits to slow or stop the French cavalry and had the unplanned extra benefit of a strong rainshower just before the French attack which led to heavy mud in the recently ploughed fields in front of the hill as well as small rivulets of water draining down the ridge making the French attempts to climb up the now slippery slope quite a bit more difficult.

At Castillon, the battle which ended the English attempts to claim the French throne- the English attacked into the French prepared positions but it was the cavalry charge by the Bretons across a clear field with no English defences that sealed the victory.

Bannerlord already has plenty of battlefield diversity which can break up cavalry charges. If an enemy deploys right in the middle of a field with no defences they should be overrun by cavalry if not screened by their own cavalry.

As it stands melee cavalry are barely any threat even to unprotected low tier archers.
yah cavalry charge can easily shatter the enemy's formation and morale in historical times, but to be realistic + game balance, they should allow barricades to be placed in the field to protect the flanks of archers. Right now, you can flank the archers and they will still be shooting arrows like a 3 years old kid bump into them.
 
I don't know about you. But in real life a horse would not charge into a line of men. It's a living animal with instincts after all.

I get your point and i'm down for it for the game but i'm not sure if you should compare it to real life.
I did not meant charing into a tightly formed spear wall, but if the infantry was charged in the flank? They should take massive casualties and morale loss.
 
Gameplay trumps realism. Although I much prefer when gameplay is inspired by reality the root of the issue of Bannerlord cavalry is that it serves no gameplay purpose right now.

Cav units are expensive to train but provide very little value. There is nothing that they do that other units don't do better, save perhaps helping you win more by running down fleeing units.

I have covered this in other threads but real life use for cavalry are simply not able to be replicated in Bannerlord where even the largest battles are all small skirmishes (compared to real life), even sieges.

So, please let's drop using real battles as any justification for cavalry in Bannerlord, what we should be trying to do is give TW ideas of what do to with the cav units based on gameplay value.

IMO, what cav needs is the ability to issue commands to target specific enemy formations (such as targeting archers or enemy cav) as well as the ability to target reinforcement by camping respawn to help prevent it joining the main force. Those would all help make cav formation a lot more helpful.
 
No! they already buffed armor to much...I miss the days when 3 arrows where enough to be worried or dead. Seems they have debuffed armor a little now in the latest from the looks of it but im not certain yet since its both to early and i havent played with medium and hvy armor in some time to so have to see how it reacts nowadays...Perhaps speed bonus on impact on them could be reduced slightly if its in the formula to compensate

Against the most heavily armored targets, arrows should do very little.

Hits to lamellar should be deflected, except for lucky shots to areas where armor does not cover or to the same area again.




Higher end armor would be even more resistant.

So, please let's drop using real battles as any justification for cavalry in Bannerlord, what we should be trying to do is give TW ideas of what do to with the cav units based on gameplay value.

IMO, what cav needs is the ability to issue commands to target specific enemy formations (such as targeting archers or enemy cav) as well as the ability to target reinforcement by camping respawn to help prevent it joining the main force. Those would all help make cav formation a lot more helpful.

This is a game that claims some degree of historical authenticity, so no I don't think real world can be dropped.

It's possible to make a good game with some resemblance to history and reasonably balanced. It will never be perfect, but it can be a decent trade-off.
 
In an open field with no obstructions cavalry charge should be damn scary and it certainly worked in history as well. Of course, most people in history learned NOT to give such an easy target.

The Battle of the Golden Spurs is a perfect example. The Flemish knew that a French counter-attack to their siege was likely and found a nice flat field... and proceeded to riddle it with ditches, drained nearby rivers to make marshland and even dug pit traps covered with branches and leaves. The French arrived to find the flat field they had expected crossed by several small streams and tried to put bundled branches over the streams to let the horses cross more easily but the Flemish were guarding against that and stopped the French attempts to fill in the streams.The French felt they HAD to give battle even in the unfavourable situation and lost badly.

Agincourt the English constructed wooden barricades and earthworks as well as using the already existing marshy ground.

At Crecy, the English were at the top of a ridge and again dug pits to slow or stop the French cavalry and had the unplanned extra benefit of a strong rainshower just before the French attack which led to heavy mud in the recently ploughed fields in front of the hill as well as small rivulets of water draining down the ridge making the French attempts to climb up the now slippery slope quite a bit more difficult.

At Castillon, the battle which ended the English attempts to claim the French throne- the English attacked into the French prepared positions but it was the cavalry charge by the Bretons across a clear field with no English defences that sealed the victory.

Bannerlord already has plenty of battlefield diversity which can break up cavalry charges. If an enemy deploys right in the middle of a field with no defences they should be overrun by cavalry if not screened by their own cavalry.

As it stands melee cavalry are barely any threat even to unprotected low tier archers.

More important then obstruction is to have flanks protected. Which is exactly the case in all those three battles. And it's also reason why universal anti cavalry infantry formation all through history was square (sometimes circle). That is formation that does not have flanks.

Cavalry have only one advantage over infantry: mobility. Thanks to it's mobility, cavalry can exploit weak points like flanks, or even rear. That's what makes it dangerous. If cavalry can't exploit flanks, or there are no flanks, it have to try to create weak point, usually some kind of crack in infantry formation. But that's very hard to do against half decent and determined infantry.

Also mobility gives cavalry initiative. Thanks to mobility it's cavalry that can decide when and where to attack. Besides tactical advantage that it gives, it also huge moral disadvantage to the infantry. Because infantry can't run away from cavalry while cavalry can from infantry. Just one mistake and it's over. Just one man that break the rank and cavalry can exploit the gap and whole line will collapse. So infantry really needs to hold it's nerve under charge. And again, that requires experienced men.

On the other hand stationary infantry is a sitting duck. Man fixed on a huge vulnerable and easy to spook animal with limited ability to fight and defend himself. Cavalry also can't stand as close to each other and create as dense formation as infantry can. So there are less men fighting per unit of distance.

Take mobility out of cavalry or at last limit their mobility, by not presenting flanks for example, and there is not much that cavalry can do.

Of course this is something very hard to simulate in the game like this. It would require much more advanced AI and morale system. Therefore we will only have some simplification. Right now cavalry is much more balanced then compared to Warband.

Against the most heavily armored targets, arrows should do very little.

And so should swords, axes and spears. But then you would have no way to kill heavily armored targets, would you?

People forget that armor and combat in general are abstract in Bannerlord. When you hit armored target with the arrow and do damage, it does not mean that you have pierced through steel plate. It simply represents % of shoots that hit unprotected, or lightly protected areas on the target.

So armor definitely does not need any buffs against arrows, it's effective plenty enough.
 
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In the same way that plate armor is not present in the game, English longbowmen should not be present in Bannerlord age frame. Foot archers have not been decisive in any battle before crazy, agincourt as far I know.

Anyway, I find the current balancing between archers, infantry and cavalry pretty good. Cavalry is hitting most of the times except when trying to kill fleeing units but this is not a big problem for the moment IMO.
 
I think the armor still needs some minor tweaks, I mean it works well against NPC arrows, but how bout players arrow to NPC? ATM, I can one-shot a legionnaire quite often with steppe war bow and 220 bow skills. Indeed, back in historical times, nobles wear not only 1 layer of armor but 3. They wore heavy lamellar, chain, then gambeson.

True but 220 is pretty high to as that bow is top notch power. But still i get your message there for sure. Are you one shotting them in the chest standing still or riding with force ? And can you one shot them ex in the leg or arms? Was long time ago i did my robin hood playthru and was before they buffed the armors to.... Think also they need to reduce the speed bonus for arrows if that now is implemented since ive noticed it can be devastating at times for sure if that was the case when i rode around....
 
Against the most heavily armored targets, arrows should do very little.

Hits to lamellar should be deflected, except for lucky shots to areas where armor does not cover or to the same area again.




Higher end armor would be even more resistant.



This is a game that claims some degree of historical authenticity, so no I don't think real world can be dropped.

It's possible to make a good game with some resemblance to history and reasonably balanced. It will never be perfect, but it can be a decent trade-off.

this guy is not battanian archer
 
Gameplay trumps realism. Although I much prefer when gameplay is inspired by reality the root of the issue of Bannerlord cavalry is that it serves no gameplay purpose right now.

Cav units are expensive to train but provide very little value. There is nothing that they do that other units don't do better, save perhaps helping you win more by running down fleeing units.

I have covered this in other threads but real life use for cavalry are simply not able to be replicated in Bannerlord where even the largest battles are all small skirmishes (compared to real life), even sieges.

So, please let's drop using real battles as any justification for cavalry in Bannerlord, what we should be trying to do is give TW ideas of what do to with the cav units based on gameplay value.

IMO, what cav needs is the ability to issue commands to target specific enemy formations (such as targeting archers or enemy cav) as well as the ability to target reinforcement by camping respawn to help prevent it joining the main force. Those would all help make cav formation a lot more helpful.

This is fairly accurate summation- the game can't ever match real life but TW can establish good trade-offs to give cavalry some value without making it OP. Really the fact most of the horses aren't armoured and will eventually get shot out from underneath the riders rather quickly already makes foot archers more powerful than in Warband, cavalry also has really little to non-existent mass when hitting models straight on the horse often completely stops and does that rearing thing opening the rider to even more attacks by nearby enemies.

I think models that are given a formation command and with some few seconds delay should get a bonus to mass so cavalry can't smash thru as they could in Warband- however when models are not in some sort of anti-cavalry formation (not every formation gets a mass bonus) they can be run over by the more powerful horses or riders with high even riding level (so random low tier light cavalry can't do it even vs models not in formation).

Then all that light cavalry needs is a command to focus on archers, spawn area, or the models whose morale collapses and run away- they can harass some enemies but not full on charge. I think horses speeds and especially turn radius should vary more. Right now all the cavalry horses are really too similar in quality and without stamina or armour to differentiate more the various cavalries blend together and the gear of the riders establish the value way more than the type of horses.

Eventually, there should be some formations available for cavalry but require certain tier of horse or riding level to perform the formation and get some mass bonus multiplier to charge bonus.
 
True but 220 is pretty high to as that bow is top notch power. But still i get your message there for sure. Are you one shotting them in the chest standing still or riding with force ? And can you one shot them ex in the leg or arms? Was long time ago i did my robin hood playthru and was before they buffed the armors to.... Think also they need to reduce the speed bonus for arrows if that now is implemented since ive noticed it can be devastating at times for sure if that was the case when i rode around....
I was hiding in the bush on the side to shoot, so I was stable. Most of my shots land on their chest, shoulders, and legs shots are almost guaranteed death on the lower tier units too. It's true that 220 is pretty high, but I hope battles could last longer, and armor matters not only for the players but also for the soldiers and NPCs.
 
I was hiding in the bush on the side to shoot, so I was stable. Most of my shots land on their chest, shoulders, and legs shots are almost guaranteed death on the lower tier units too. It's true that 220 is pretty high, but I hope battles could last longer, and armor matters not only for the players but also for the soldiers and NPCs.
lol you sneaky bushwacker xD But its the right tactics :wink: Well im not so found of buffing armors though (even if i do understand your statement there) since i already find it a bit easier now then before and for balance sake to since you can train soldiers like nothing now and with that human power at hand it can become to easy in the end...But thats just me thinking about the subject and perhaps they will come up with an good formula
 
More important then obstruction is to have flanks protected. Which is exactly the case in all those three battles. And it's also reason why universal anti cavalry infantry formation all through history was square (sometimes circle). That is formation that does not have flanks.

Cavalry have only one advantage over infantry: mobility. Thanks to it's mobility, cavalry can exploit weak points like flanks, or even rear. That's what makes it dangerous. If cavalry can't exploit flanks, or there are no flanks, it have to try to create weak point, usually some kind of crack in infantry formation. But that's very hard to do against half decent and determined infantry.

Also mobility gives cavalry initiative. Thanks to mobility it's cavalry that can decide when and where to attack. Besides tactical advantage that it gives, it also huge moral disadvantage to the infantry. Because infantry can't run away from cavalry while cavalry can from infantry. Just one mistake and it's over. Just one man that break the rank and cavalry can exploit the gap and whole line will collapse. So infantry really needs to hold it's nerve under charge. And again, that requires experienced men.

On the other hand stationary infantry is a sitting duck. Man fixed on a huge vulnerable and easy to spook animal with limited ability to fight and defend himself. Cavalry also can't stand as close to each other and create as dense formation as infantry can. So there are less men fighting per unit of distance.

Take mobility out of cavalry or at last limit their mobility, by not presenting flanks for example, and there is not much that cavalry can do.

Of course this is something very hard to simulate in the game like this. It would require much more advanced AI and morale system. Therefore we will only have some simplification. Right now cavalry is much more balanced then compared to Warband.



And so should swords, axes and spears. But then you would have no way to kill heavily armored targets, would you?

People forget that armor and combat in general are abstract in Bannerlord. When you hit armored target with the arrow and do damage, it does not mean that you have pierced through steel plate. It simply represents % of shoots that hit unprotected, or lightly protected areas on the target.

So armor definitely does not need any buffs against arrows, it's effective plenty enough.
I have to disagree with you that cavalry is merely for mobility. There are many documented historical events around the world that showed cavalry charges can singlehandedly turn the tide or being the decisive factor. Think about this, a historical warhorse is about 900+lbs, an average grown man is much smaller than what we are now, at most weighting 150-160lbs (It is documented in WW2, an average dutchman is standing at 167cm, compared to them being the tallest of all men at 183cm). My point is that a warhorse is 5-6 times the weight of an average soldier, thus a shield wall would stand no chance against a cavalry charge.

The only advantages for infantry over cavalry are cheap, numbers, and carrying pikes forming a spear wall. Typical footmen spears would stand no chance against cavalry lances as they are at least 2-3 meters long. However, I think by buffing the cavalry, their cost to recruit and upkeep should be raised multiple times to be more realistic.
 
Against the most heavily armored targets, arrows should do very little.

Hits to lamellar should be deflected, except for lucky shots to areas where armor does not cover or to the same area again.




Higher end armor would be even more resistant.



This is a game that claims some degree of historical authenticity, so no I don't think real world can be dropped.

It's possible to make a good game with some resemblance to history and reasonably balanced. It will never be perfect, but it can be a decent trade-off.

A lamellar maybe too much for the bow, lets take a look at a 140lbs warbow vs gambeson.
 
lol you sneaky bushwacker xD But its the right tactics :wink: Well im not so found of buffing armors though (even if i do understand your statement there) since i already find it a bit easier now then before and for balance sake to since you can train soldiers like nothing now and with that human power at hand it can become to easy in the end...But thats just me thinking about the subject and perhaps they will come up with an good formula
Take a look at the gambeson vs 140lbs warbow :razz:. I'm sure noble knights of the time wore more than 1 layer of armor. Other than the gaps in between protection, they wouldn't be many chances to kill a knight by shooting at their protected area.
 
I have to disagree with you that cavalry is merely for mobility. There are many documented historical events around the world that showed cavalry charges can singlehandedly turn the tide or being the decisive factor. Think about this, a historical warhorse is about 900+lbs, an average grown man is much smaller than what we are now, at most weighting 150-160lbs (It is documented in WW2, an average dutchman is standing at 167cm, compared to them being the tallest of all men at 183cm). My point is that a warhorse is 5-6 times the weight of an average soldier, thus a shield wall would stand no chance against a cavalry charge.

The only advantages for infantry over cavalry are cheap, numbers, and carrying pikes forming a spear wall. Typical footmen spears would stand no chance against cavalry lances as they are at least 2-3 meters long. However, I think by buffing the cavalry, their cost to recruit and upkeep should be raised multiple times to be more realistic.
Just to ask,since I am not a historian,but didn't like cavlary in early middle ages (the place Bannerlord takes places) also use spears or at least lances that are long as spears.So if that was the case,couldn't then the spearmen counter the cavlary.Also I am pretty sure that spearmen unit in the time where cavlary used 2-3 m long lances also had kite shields,so I don't think even cavlary would dare to charge them.
 
I have to disagree with you that cavalry is merely for mobility. There are many documented historical events around the world that showed cavalry charges can singlehandedly turn the tide or being the decisive factor.

I newer said that cavalry charges were not sometimes decisive factor. I said that mobility was the decisive factor of the cavalry charges. Mobility that allowed cavalry to seek and strike weak point of the infantry line. However when they could not find or create such a weak point, they as a rule failed. I already gave examples.

And there are as many failed cavalry charges in history as there are successful ones, if not more.

Think about this, a historical warhorse is about 900+lbs, an average grown man is much smaller than what we are now, at most weighting 150-160lbs (It is documented in WW2, an average dutchman is standing at 167cm, compared to them being the tallest of all men at 183cm). My point is that a warhorse is 5-6 times the weight of an average soldier, thus a shield wall would stand no chance against a cavalry charge.

Weight of the horse is irrelevant. As is height of the average Dutchman. What is relevant is that average Dutchman held pike and no horse, no matter how heavy, can survive pike in to the head. Not to mention that horse will not willingly throw itself on to a pike or spear to begin with.

The only advantages for infantry over cavalry are cheap, numbers, and carrying pikes forming a spear wall. Typical footmen spears would stand no chance against cavalry lances as they are at least 2-3 meters long. However, I think by buffing the cavalry, their cost to recruit and upkeep should be raised multiple times to be more realistic.

And pikes are 3-7.5m long. RIP cavalry which foolishly thought to have any advantage over infantry. Any other then the mobility.
 
Take a look at the gambeson vs 140lbs warbow :razz:. I'm sure noble knights of the time wore more than 1 layer of armor. Other than the gaps in between protection, they wouldn't be many chances to kill a knight by shooting at their protected area.
love watching these kinds of showcases :smile:
 
I still think this whole debacle cuts both ways. Spears and pikes are not deadly enough against cavalry, and cavalry is not deadly enough against infantry. If a sturdy formation of spearmen takes on cavalry, they should be capable of inflicting significant casualties against opposing cavalry. If cavalry charge into a formation of unprepared infantry armed that lack polearms, they should inflict terrifying casualties with little loss to themselves.

Wasnt Joan of Arc in full plate?
Are you using later period art as a source? Either way, the armour of the 16th century gendarme is still a lot more advanced that a lot of equipment of the Hundred Years War.

I probably should have specified that I don't think the French at Crecy, Poitiers or Agincourt wore that sort of plate armour.
 
I still think this whole debacle cuts both ways. Spears and pikes are not deadly enough against cavalry, and cavalry is not deadly enough against infantry. If a sturdy formation of spearmen takes on cavalry, they should be capable of inflicting significant casualties against opposing cavalry. If cavalry charge into a formation of unprepared infantry armed that lack polearms, they should inflict terrifying casualties with little loss to themselves.
This.
 
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