Melee cavalry is underpowered at the moment (Suggestions updated)

[Dabos37]

That's not the point. Point is, that you can't expect to line your cavalry in front of the enemy, press charge and expect your knights roll over everything as was the case in Warband. Just as you can't expect to line your archers in front of the enemy, press charge and expect them to shoot everybody to bits.

Point is need to use tactics. And yes, using cavalry effectively is going to be more management intensive then using infantry. That's given character of the game, it's AI and it's controls. Cavalry is not fire and forget weapon.

Combined arms army should be better then mono army, all other things been equal. But combined army needs tactics to use it's advantage, that is, coordination of different arms. Bannerlord is far from been ideal in this respect especially given it's limited AI and morale systems, but it's by far better then Warband was in this aspect. And that includes fact that you can't just flatten everything with monoforce of whatever knights.

Btw, if you want to use your cavalry as fire and forget weapon, because you want to concentrate on other things, like fighting yourself, it's better to use sergeants take command rather then charge or advance command. It will make your cavalry (or other formation) use full AI, including the tactical one. Usually that will give better results then just charging head on and leave it at that for rest of the battle.

The problem is that even babysitting cavalry units, I think they perform worse, so why should I bother with these units? Plus this is not a strategic game, so I do not get why cavalry should be designed to be effective only if the player uses advanced tactics. Believe me, I am not interested to bring back swadian knights spam to Bannerlord, I just care about balancing and to make all kind of units useful and enjoyable.

Anyway, would you agree to show us how to use cavalry effectively if I upload this save game for you (or to someone else who thinks that cavalry worths)? I really would love that someone could prove me wrong and teach me how to use cavalry to be as useful as infantry in this battle. It is not really about challenging you, it is that I really would like to understand how to use cavalry units with advanced tactics and feel that they are useful.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

The problem is that even babysitting cavalry units, I think they perform worse, so why should I bother with these units? Plus this is not a strategic game, so I do not get why cavalry should be designed to be effective only if the player uses advanced tactics. Believe me, I am not interested to bring back swadian knights spam to Bannerlord, I just care about balancing and to make all kind of units useful and enjoyable.

Anyway, do you agree to show us how to use cavalry effectively if I upload this save game for you (or to someone else who thinks that cavalry worths)? I really would love that someone could prove me wrong and teach me how to use cavalry to be as useful as infantry in this battle. It is not really about challenging you, it is that I really would like to believe that cavalry is as good as you say using advanced tactics.

Saying this is not a strategical game is wrong...Its a misconception people have about it thinking that its only an FPS action...Theres reason why there is an command bar even if F6 works to but not without AI flaws now and then ofc but its not substantial (well its situational debatable). if you dont want to order an army nor have responsibility for them then dont and play as an hero instead since you dont have to look after much then yourself and some men if you choose to. I like to do this from time to time so its a tip and works perfectly fine in this game as well

 

[hruza]

Anyway, would you agree to show us how to use cavalry effectively if I upload this save game for you (or to someone else who thinks that cavalry worths)? I really would love that someone could prove me wrong and teach me how to use cavalry to be as useful as infantry in this battle. It is not really about challenging you, it is that I really would like to understand how to use cavalry units with advanced tactics and feel that they are useful.

I have Bannerlord uninstalled for the time been, I am planing to go back only after couple of major updates, so I can't play your save right now.

Also point is not about cavalry been as useful as infantry. Point is about cavalry been useful in a different way. Cavalry is riding horses, horses are large and can't be packed as closely as infantry can. So when cavalry attacks infantry, one cavalry man is facing several infantrymen. Moreover cavalry is moving constantly. It fights by delivering damage in strikes that are followed by long pauses. Infantry can just hack away without pause.

Cavalry can't -and should not out DPS infantry, unless you give cavalry some hugely unrealistic advantage. Like lances that can cleave 10 infantrymen at the same time.

And those are largely problems that cavalry faced also in the real life. Which is why cavalry had problems when facing competent heavy infantry frontally. That's the point I was trying to argue in some of my posts here.

Now cavalry does not act completely realistically in Banerlord, just as infantry does not. There are issues with game limitations and playability. I am not arguing for heavy cavalry to be completely realistic. I am also not saying that there should be no balancing done whatsoever.

That said, this is how I have used my cavalry in Bannerlord so far and what I find workable:

I divide my cavalry in to two formations at the start of the battle (there is command to split your force), then I place each group on to one flank. Infantry in the middle, archers in front. Role of the cavalry is to tie enemy cavalry, to prevent it from attacking my archers, so that archers can deliver maximum damage to enemy infantry without been distracted, engage enemy archers to prevent them from doing damage to my infantry (however AI is very incompetent in using archers right now), and then to mop up fleeing enemies preventing them to rally up and help my infantry to finish off the enemy infantry.

I don't need and expect my cavalry to get as many kills as my infantry, that's not their role. Their role is to help and allow my own infantry and archers to be able to deal maximum damage without been disturbed. Cavalry does that by distracting enemy cavalry and archers, keeping them away from my infantry and archers and by distracting enemy infantry. Enemy infantry that is chasing my cavalry somewhere in the rear is not fighting my infantry, giving my infantry edge.

Now does this work as well as I would like it to work in a game such as this? No. Unfortunately AI is still too limited. But it works better then it would in the Warband. Therefore rather then buffing and debuffing different units, which is after certain point completely pointless task as by buffing one unit you destroy balance of others and vice versa, I would much more like to see improved AI.

Btw, when i was talking about using sergeants command rather then charge, cavalry AI in the game is programmed to go after certain formations in order of priority. I did not play latest patch, but unless it was changed, cavalry AI will first go after enemy horse archers, then archers, and only then infantry. When you order charge it will just attack closest enemy formation. That's why I think it's normally better to use sergeants if you don't want to micro your cavalry.

 

[Dabos37]

I have Bannerlord uninstalled for the time been, I am planing to go back only after couple of major updates, so I can't play your save right now.

Also point is not about cavalry been as useful as infantry. Point is about cavalry been useful in a different way. Cavalry is riding horses, horses are large and can't be packed as closely as infantry can. So when cavalry attacks infantry, one cavalry man is facing several infantrymen. Moreover cavalry is moving constantly. It fights by delivering damage in strikes that are followed by long pauses. Infantry can just hack away without pause.

Cavalry can't -and should not out DPS infantry, unless you give cavalry some hugely unrealistic advantage. Like lances that can cleave 10 infantrymen at the same time.

And those are largely problems that cavalry faced also in the real life. Which is why cavalry had problems when facing competent heavy infantry frontally. That's the point I was trying to argue in some of my posts here.

Now cavalry does not act completely realistically in Banerlord, just as infantry does not. There are issues with game limitations and playability. I am not arguing for heavy cavalry to be completely realistic. I am also not saying that there should be no balancing done whatsoever.

That said, this is how I have used my cavalry in Bannerlord so far and what I find workable:

I divide my cavalry in to two formations at the start of the battle (there is command to split your force), then I place each group on to one flank. Infantry in the middle, archers in front. Role of the cavalry is to tie enemy cavalry, to prevent it from attacking my archers, so that archers can deliver maximum damage to enemy infantry without been distracted, engage enemy archers to prevent them from doing damage to my infantry (however AI is very incompetent in using archers right now), and then to mop up fleeing enemies preventing them to rally up and help my infantry to finish off the enemy infantry.

I don't need and expect my cavalry to get as many kills as my infantry, that's not their role. Their role is to help and allow my own infantry and archers to be able to deal maximum damage without been disturbed. Cavalry does that by distracting enemy cavalry and archers, keeping them away from my infantry and archers and by distracting enemy infantry. Enemy infantry that is chasing my cavalry somewhere in the rear is not fighting my infantry, giving my infantry edge.

Now does this work as well as I would like it to work in a game such as this? No. Unfortunately AI is still too limited. But it works better then it would in the Warband. Therefore rather then buffing and debuffing different units, which is after certain point completely pointless task as by buffing one unit you destroy balance of others and vice versa, I would much more like to see improved AI.

Btw, when i was talking about using sergeants command rather then charge, cavalry AI in the game is programmed to go after certain formations in order of priority. I did not play latest patch, but unless it was changed, cavalry AI will first go after enemy horse archers, then archers, and only then infantry. When you order charge it will just attack closest enemy formation. That's why I think it's normally better to use sergeants if you don't want to micro your cavalry.

I disagree with this because it is pretty evident that you want to see cavalry acting as a support units when it was not the case in 900-1200. You can say that it is historical accurate but I disagree with this statement in the same way than other people. There are plenty evidence about cavalry being the most decisive factor in medieval ages and plenty of sources confirming that. I for sure do not want to see swadian knights spam coming back, but at least I would like to see my cavalry units being as useful as other units but it is not currently the case. I just want to recruits some cavalry units and do not feel like I am wasting time because getting some extra archers or infantry units is simply a much more useful thing.

You really do not need cavalry to protect your archers because you can do it with infantry or simply ignore enemy cavalry because it really does not represent a big deal for you.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

I disagree with this because it is pretty evident that you want to see cavalry acting as a support units when it was not the case in 900-1200

Well since no one have provided some real evidence video wise about 10 cav men riding right in to thick lines of prepared infantry men with real weapons, heavy armor and heavy shields as they are fighting for their lives, it can only be speculated so far. Im not saying that they where´nt effective during that time with their lances and spears but saying that they can just ride in there like no ones business without risk doesnt ring like reality to me...Especially since horses legs arent made of steel.

Also another question here to keep in mind is: did helicopters and airplanes fought out the most of the battles for murica in Vietnam ? They where effective to but couldn't fight nor be effective in areas where Inf could

 

[hruza]

I disagree with this because it is pretty evident that you want to see cavalry acting as a support units when it was not the case in 900-1200.

Units supporting each other does not make them supporting units. When tanks support infantry and infantry support tanks, which one of them is "supporting unit"? None. They are combined arms force.

You can say that it is historical accurate but I disagree with this statement in the same way than other people. There are plenty evidence about cavalry being the most decisive factor in medieval ages and plenty of sources confirming that.

Been decisive does not equal having the most kills on the battlefield. Been decisive can mean striking exposed flank of the enemy at the right moment and causing his formation to fold.

Been decisive also does not mean that cavalry can defeat enemy on it's own.

And there is no such thing as "the most decisive factor" on the battlefields of any era. Nobody removed infantry, archers or light cavalry from medieval battlefields.

I for sure do not want to see swadian knights spam coming back, but at least I would like to see my cavalry units being as useful as other units but it is not currently the case. I just want to recruits some cavalry units and do not feel like I am wasting time because getting some extra archers or infantry units is simply a much more useful thing.

You really do not need cavalry to protect your archers because you can do it with infantry

Yes, just not as effectively as with cavalry. Because cavalry can actually engage enemy cavalry, infantry can't. They can just stand and hope to block the path of the faster and more mobile cavalry to your archers.

or simply ignore enemy cavalry because it really does not represent a big deal for you.

If you ignore enemy cavalry attacking your archers, then your archers will be busy fending off cavalry instead of doing what they are good at: shooting arrows in to the flanks or backs of tick and slow enemy infantry formations.

 

[Dabos37]

Units supporting each other does not make them supporting units. When tanks support infantry and infantry support tanks, which one of them is "supporting unit"? None. They are combined arms force.



Been decisive does not equal having the most kills on the battlefield. Been decisive can mean striking exposed flank of the enemy at the right moment and causing his formation to fold.

Been decisive also does not mean that cavalry can defeat enemy on it's own.

And there is no such thing as "the most decisive factor" on the battlefields of any era. Nobody removed infantry, archers or light cavalry from medieval battlefields.



Yes, just not as effectively as with cavalry. Because cavalry can actually engage enemy cavalry, infantry can't. They can just stand and hope to block the path of the faster and more mobile cavalry to your archers.



If you ignore enemy cavalry attacking your archers, then your archers will be busy fending off cavalry instead of doing what they are good at: shooting arrows in to the flanks or backs of tick and slow enemy infantry formations.

Disagree about cavalry being good to protect archers... In the way that cavalry current works, both, enemy and friendly cav go far away and then charge again, so they really do not stay in melee and it is pointless to keep cavalry close to protect archers because they do not stay in melee. Fiert because enemy cavalry is not a problem at all, second because archers are rarely bussy as you say fighting cavalry because cavalry units do not stay in melee (my archers are never bussy fighting cavalry).

As I see it, the only role you say about cavalry is protecting archers and it seems pretty lackluster IMO. Why cavalry cannot get a similar killing power than infantry and archers and should be relagated to just protect archers (which they actually do poorly)?

I have the feeling that you should reinstall teh game again, test the cavalry, compared having lesscavalry and more archers or infantry units and then give your point about it, because currently it feels like you simply do not want any buff to cavalry because you are afraid of swadian knights spam again, but currently cavalrly is really far awary to be as strong as cavalry is in Warband.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

Disagree about cavalry being good to protect archers... In the way that cavalry current works, both, enemy and friendly cav go far away and then charge again, so they really do not stay in melee and it is pointless to keep cavalry close to protect archers because they do not stay in melee. Fiert because enemy cavalry is not a problem at all, second because archers are rarely bussy as you say fighting cavalry because cavalry units do not stay in melee (my archers are never bussy fighting cavalry).

As I see it, the only role you say about cavalry is protecting archers and it seems pretty lackluster IMO. Why cavalry cannot get a similar killing power than infantry and archers and should be relagated to just protect archers (which they actually do poorly)?

I have the feeling that you should reinstall teh game again, test the cavalry, compared having lesscavalry and more archers or infantry units and then give your point about it, because currently it feels like you simply do not want any buff to cavalry because you are afraid of swadian knights spam again, but currently cavalrly is really far awary to be as strong as cavalry is in Warband.

Saying that enemy cav is no problem at all is just lack of experience acc to me even if i do share some point of views you have which show some....
Or youre not playing at highest settings idk but for me enemy Cavs are annoying as fug as they are dangerous. And as said by hruza.. annoying to archers and killing them when they would be doing better against infantry at times when i have no infantry at hand and even then that line would be to slim to even cover or repel those heavy horses as an large formation of inf cant do anyways at times.... if i wanted the front to work as it should that is. An army is about teamwork utilizing each others strength and weaknesses. AI making poor decisions as well as human controller (at times) riding in to thick lines and gets massacred because they couldnt draw their sword out in time isnt such showcase...I mean they pretty much took a lot of troops down in their charge prob hurt some to in your showcase did they not ? Then they had to get out of there and got hit on the way by all kinds of stuff surrounding them as all the infantry where concentrating on the horses and men sitting on them. Also the power bar you presented is in AI favor in both cases so idk about that to

 

[Dabos37]

Saying that enemy cav is no problem at all is just lack of experience acc to me even if i do share some point of views you have which show some....
Or youre not playing at highest settings idk but for me enemy Cavs are annoying as fug as they are dangerous. And as said by hruza.. annoying to and killing my archers when they would be doing better against the infantry at times when i have no infantry at hand and even then that line would be to slim to even cover or repell those heavy horses as an large formation of inf cant do anyways at times.... if i wanted the front to work as it should that is. An army is about teamwork utilizing each others strength and weaknesses. AI making poor decisions as well as human controller (at times) riding in to thick lines and gets massacered because they couldnt draw their sword out in time isnt such showcase...I mean they pretty much took a lot of troops down in their charge prob hurt some to in your showcase did they not ? Then they had to get out of there and got hit on the way by all kinds of stuff surrounding them as all the infantry where concentrating on the horses and men sitting on them. Also the power bar you presented is in AI favor in both cases so idk about that to

I play with pretty few or sometimes ven 0 cavalry units after I have found that they are still underperforming. I have not had problems against enemy cav units at all in this battle:



Yes, I got some losses but battle was just slighly in my favor while I was outnumbered. Plus I am 100% sure that replacing some infantry units with cavalry of the same level would not make it better. Anyway as I said before, I can share save games with everyone to show us how cavalry is so good in your hands (or maybe you have uninstalled the game too? xD).

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

I play with pretty few or sometimes ven 0 cavalry units after I have found that they are still underperforming. I have not had problems against enemy cav units at all in this battle:



Yes, I got some losses but battle was just slighly in my favor while I was outnumbered. Plus I am 100% sure that replacing some infantry units with cavalry of the same level would not make it better. Anyway as I said before, I can share save games with everyone to show us how cavalry is so good in your hands (or maybe you have uninstalled the game too? xD).

Well first mistake you did was not to order your cav units in to a defensive shield command riding them in to cav with archers so thats on you if they get hit...Even if they do at times shield em selves they are still open..:And if they did get their horses down during your reckless attack you didnt even look if they needed to be saved...which makes you loose someone because of that to...But even if you lets say loose cav men in battle its not that common that they actually die with an medic at hand.

Also another tip if you didnt knew already...Your cav men if they loose horses at the battlefield can take the enemies so just lead them in the vicinity or move em but they wont mount until its secured

 

[Dabos37]

Well first mistake you did was not to order your cav units in to a defensive shield command riding them in to cav with archers so thats on you if they get hit...Even if they do at times shield em selves they are still open

Thanks for the tips but I think you are not getting the point of the video. This video shows that I did not lose almost any archer (while archers killed a good enemy number) while I just have a pretty small cavalry force which I just used as “bodyguards” to avoid all Khuzaits horse archers focusing on me with arrows.

Anyway, as I have said before, the best thing we can do is to play a battle, the same battle using different army compositions. I will play using infantry and archers while you have to use at least 30-40% of cavalry to show how good they are In your hands. Maybe you are actually pretty good using cavalry and make them work great (sorry but I really doubt it), and in this way instead of just giving arguments from each side, we could actually show our point.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

Thanks for the tips but I think you are not getting the point of the video. This video shows that I did not lose almost any archer (while archers killed a good enemy number) while I just have a pretty small cavalry force which I just used as “bodyguards” to avoid all Khuzaits horse archers focusing on me with arrows.

Anyway, as I have said before, the best thing we can do is to play a battle, the same battle using different army compositions. I will play using infantry and archers while you have to use at least 30-40% of cavalry to show how good they are In your hands. Maybe you are actually pretty good using cavalry and make them work great (sorry but I really doubt it), and in this way instead of just giving arguments from each side, we could actually show our point.

Thing is im more playing as an infantry guy which puzzles me that i can make cav effective to so they must be good for something right ? But im also strategy minded so might add up a little in there to then i guess.....
Not saying they arent without flaws as AI are in general with infantry to but its not as bad as people are picturing it to be. Sure they turn backs at times, horses slowing down, infantry men shifting to sides getting archered and so on but they are adjusting that in the production. I see it slowly evolving.

But having them buffed in both armor and weapons...just no on that. Im more for adjust them slightly with aim but not to much since they are gonna be to dangerous and OP then and then players are gonna complain about that...also that i want it to feel natural since i as an player also can miss at times and do stupid mistakes as riding in to trees ^^. So no aim botting super AI pls. But the main prob i see with cavs incl inf as mentioned is their targeting system. They tend to lock on wrong targets at times and stays on that which makes em both miss as they adjust to avoid other inf as well they put em selves in harms way right in the middle of an angry mob. They dont do this all the time but it happes...

Its complicated stuff to get right but i think they are doing pretty ok on the battlefield so far and been seing a lot of enjoyment on the combat from the AI to so......

 

[hruza]

Thanks for the tips but I think you are not getting the point of the video. This video shows that I did not lose almost any archer (while archers killed a good enemy number) while I just have a pretty small cavalry force which I just used as “bodyguards” to avoid all Khuzaits horse archers focusing on me with arrows.

You have used your cavalry to counter enemy cavalry in that video. Which is why your archers did not have problems. Exact opposite of your claim.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

Well can tell you this for you horse non believers.... i was ****ting myself here! ^^ and im not joking..... got ptsd from this memory and ive seen a lot during my days ^^

 

[Dabos37]

Nobody has complained about skirmish cavalry here... I really do not get the point of your video.

 

[Dabos37]

You have used your cavalry to counter enemy cavalry in that video. Which is why your archers did not have problems. Exact opposite of your claim.

I just used few cavalry units to avoid that horse archers flank my army. If it is the best that cavalry can offer I just find it lackluster at all. Anyway, it is not really a problem if you let the Khuzaits flank you while you rush forward and kill their main force. Then you can kill horse archers. I have been playing my current campaign without cavalry (or just 5-10 units as much) and I have not missed cavalry at all because infantry and archers are simply much more effective against everyone (I am not taking into account horse archers because they are like playing on easy mode), while melee cavalry is simply not worth most of the time after you test it in deep.

 

[Apocal]

Nobody has complained about skirmish cavalry here... I really do not get the point of your video.

Yeah, I use mainly Faris-line for my cavalry and I haven't seen any issues with their performance, so I've been mostly out of this thread. Those javelins make up for a lot that might be lacking.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

Nobody has complained about skirmish cavalry here... I really do not get the point of your video.

So they arent using melee ? They stabbed me 2-3 times to death... and been used in cqc to which is their less effective grounds to fight in so to speak..... or is it just Vanguard AI that you have a problem with ? Also here you can clearly see the AI been locked to their target trying to throw an javelin in the right moment, not thinking about their surrounding which make em do stupid decisions. Sometimes they do swift against the danges incoming, this time they didnt.

The point was since you said that you didnt felt that the enemy cavs behind your lines didnt felt threatening enough, which i did here.
If this where heavier cavs it wouldnt have been easy to kill i can tell you that and much more dangerous, since we had to play a game of whack a mole just to get down one

 

[Dabos37]

The point is that melee cavalry (not skirmish cavalry) is not as effective as it should compared to other kind of units. It is not just about Vlandian Vanguard.

Anyway, I personally do not find melee cavalry horrible as before, and they could do a decent sometimes. I just find melee cavalry not worth currently and getting HA, foot archers of infantry is usually much more useful in battles and perform better.

The current issues I am seeing with melee cavalry:

- They take ages to kill other mounted units, so melee cavalry to kill horse archers is not that great as people could think. The AI is still pretty bad in cavalry vs cavalry engagements and you can confirm this in Vlandian tournaments, when there are 8 mounted guys or so, I usually have to kill everyone because the AI is simply not good at all on this.

- Cavalry units engaged in melee are pretty bad too. I know that melee engagements should not be the strong point for shock cav but sometime you can see how cav units do not attack no try to block and get killed easily by infantry, while cav units just try to run away.

- They are also pretty bad at killing fleeing units for some reason a miss hits most of the time.

 

[hruza]

I just used few cavalry units to avoid that horse archers flank my army.

That's what i am saying. You have used your cavalry to counter enemy cavalry to prevent them from attacking your archers. Which to me is exact opposite of what you have claimed.

If it is the best that cavalry can offer I just find it lackluster at all.

Is there other unit that can do that? Then it's not lackluster at all.

Anyway, it is not really a problem if you let the Khuzaits flank you while you rush forward and kill their main force. Then you can kill horse archers. I have been playing my current campaign without cavalry (or just 5-10 units as much) and I have not missed cavalry at all because infantry and archers are simply much more effective against everyone (I am not taking into account horse archers because they are like playing on easy mode), while melee cavalry is simply not worth most of the time after you test it in deep.

Well, the video that you have posted shows how useful just handful of heavy cavalry can be if you use them right.

Btw.: you can play this game with what ever combination of forces you please, including all cavalry. It's not like AI is so good that it will punish you for that.