Medicine most OP skill in the game

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thomas13

Regular
Very

You can always stay in just one war. Thou art the king and influence is the currency of kings.

Influence is also the currency of numbers and speed. You can choose to use an exploit to get it; but if you dont, every source is valuable.
Added influence and relationship gain is useless. You don't need relationship to recruit vassals the best way is take every fief of a kingdom then recruit vassals.

No money is king for staying in just one war.

Money is the currency of numbers and speed. Influence is only needed if your going to take down a faction from the inside. Outside of that influence is worthless.
 

Sweynforkbeard

Sergeant at Arms
Added influence and relationship gain is useless. You don't need relationship to recruit vassals the best way is take every fief of a kingdom then recruit vassals.
You need 20+ relationship, need some compensation for taking aways fiefs from them first, for a decent chance to make the dialog check.
No money is king for staying in just one war.
Ehh?? Money serve one purpose which is to buy clans.
Money is the currency of numbers and speed. Influence is only needed if your going to take down a faction from the inside. Outside of that influence is worthless.
Influence is how you get to decide between war and peace, and it is the currency you need to form, disband and reform armies. So yeah, its pretty important.

Anyway... what is the point of this discussion. I dont use medicine or the INT skills in general because I see no use for them. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from not using them if you think they are OP.
 

thomas13

Regular
You need 20+ relationship, need some compensation for taking aways fiefs from them first, for a decent chance to make the dialog check.

Ehh?? Money serve one purpose which is to buy clans.

Influence is how you get to decide between war and peace, and it is the currency you need to form, disband and reform armies. So yeah, its pretty important.
Relationship gain is easy to get if you catch and release once or twice and if you're building charm then you are doing this a lot. If you take all their fiefs you can get clans for 1 denar. Dialog check all you need full focus points in charm.

Except you don't need much money to buy clans if done the right way.

No the reason you decide between war and peace is if you can stomach all the tribute payments. Influence is as easy to come by as grain.
 

Sweynforkbeard

Sergeant at Arms
Relationship gain is easy if you merc around a lot first. If you take all their fiefs you can get clans for 1 denar. Dialog check all you need full focus points in charm.

Except you don't need much money to buy clans if done the right way.
Yeah, like the first 3-4 clans perhaps. Some might even pay you
No the reason you decide between war and peace is if you can stomach all the tribute payments. Influence is as easy to come by as grain
Well, then, dont take charm. I can use it.
 

geala

Squire
I don't understand the arguments about the "op perks". Top tier perks should be really powerful, I don't see any of them as op. I don't like the arguments that the game has to be made the way that you needed some/most/all top perks to win.

You can win the game by several methods (all boring, you could argue ...). The final Medicine perk is not needed at all. I never level Medicine beyond 50. But getting the final Medicine perk seems to open a nice variant for winning, with a smaller force and a different way of playing. That's a good feature.

Same for Trade for example; why is it "op" that you can buy fiefs? If you could not buy fiefs, Trade would not allow you to participate in certain aspects of late game. It's an alternative to conquering, not attractive to me (I'm no trader), but a reasonable feature (money rules the world).
 

five bucks

Knight at Arms
I don't understand the arguments about the "op perks". Top tier perks should be really powerful, I don't see any of them as op. I don't like the arguments that the game has to be made the way that you needed some/most/all top perks to win.

You can win the game by several methods (all boring, you could argue ...). The final Medicine perk is not needed at all. I never level Medicine beyond 50. But getting the final Medicine perk seems to open a nice variant for winning, with a smaller force and a different way of playing. That's a good feature.

Same for Trade for example; why is it "op" that you can buy fiefs? If you could not buy fiefs, Trade would not allow you to participate in certain aspects of late game. It's an alternative to conquering, not attractive to me (I'm no trader), but a reasonable feature (money rules the world).
I mean, the title is "Medicine most OP skill in the game", also even if it actually is the best final skill, taking the perk makes it so much harder to level medicine further.

Okay fine.

I hate tactics skill and perks as much as the next guy, believe me, but both the perk tree and the final perk itself is better than medicine final perk. I could also say, I don't count medicine because -reason- therefore it can't be the best final perk. That's not an argument. I think that having a skill tree devoted to auto-calc is incredibly stupid and unfun as well, but it's still better than medicine final perk. Let's not forget that faster map movement through scouting benefits all gamestyles as well.

It's not silly strong but it snowballs very hard, but again, it's a playstyle difference so whatever.

I have tried it in several playthroughs after medicine leveling got fixed/better, it's still not as fast as you claim even on player characters with 10 Int & 5 Focus investment. And as I've stated multiple times, just picking the perk at 275 makes it so much harder to level medicine further. And don't get me wrong, while getting +38 health right out the gate is pretty great, it doesn't invalidate the whole game at all (it's already invalidated by the AI being terrible at battles and archers & cav archers being busted).
+1 to both of these, well reasoned. I think OP would do well to change the thread title to something more in line with what he means, because the Medicine skill definitely isn't overpowered, and it sounds like even he doesn't really think it is.
 

thomas13

Regular
I don't understand the arguments about the "op perks". Top tier perks should be really powerful, I don't see any of them as op. I don't like the arguments that the game has to be made the way that you needed some/most/all top perks to win.

You can win the game by several methods (all boring, you could argue ...). The final Medicine perk is not needed at all. I never level Medicine beyond 50. But getting the final Medicine perk seems to open a nice variant for winning, with a smaller force and a different way of playing. That's a good feature.

Same for Trade for example; why is it "op" that you can buy fiefs? If you could not buy fiefs, Trade would not allow you to participate in certain aspects of late game. It's an alternative to conquering, not attractive to me (I'm no trader), but a reasonable feature (money rules the world).
OP = strong

Don't overthink it.
 

five bucks

Knight at Arms
OP = strong

Don't overthink it.
OP means too strong by definition. If devs see this thread and don't read it all the way through they might get convinced that medicine is too strong (despite it being totally the opposite) and decide it needs a nerf (when it definitely doesn't).

People knowing what other people mean is important.
 

thomas13

Regular
OP means too strong by definition. If devs see this thread and don't read it all the way through they might get convinced that medicine is too strong (despite it being totally the opposite) and decide it needs a nerf (when it definitely doesn't).

People knowing what other people mean is important.

I'm sure they already have seen it. Let them nerf it. Let them nerf the game to the point till they realize it still doesn't offer much of a challenge.

All of this conversion doesn't matter cause they have no interest in changing the game in that regard. That is what I mean.

Although, you could make the argument medicine is OP because you don't need it. Overpowered = Overkill. In reality you don't really need any of the final perks. Nevertheless, medicine's final perk might be by far the most fun to play if you do it right.
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
There you go, not enough. I prioritize 10/5 points asap after riding and bow early game. That's how I did it. And it's very viable.
So, I gave this a shot and it definitely didn't reach 275 in two years. I'm floating around 217 at 1086 and it will probably be another two years before it maxes, at the current rate of gain.

Are you sure you aren't running any XP or leveling mods? Alternatively, how many troops are you losing, typically?
 

Sweynforkbeard

Sergeant at Arms
So, I gave this a shot and it definitely didn't reach 275 in two years. I'm floating around 217 at 1086 and it will probably be another two years before it maxes, at the current rate of gain.

Are you sure you aren't running any XP or leveling mods? Alternatively, how many troops are you losing, typically?
Well, in my lastest campaign (fian based) I am late 1086, day 190 more preciesly, and have conquered 20 towns and 24 castles. So roughly 37% of all fiefs/the map.

My 7(5) healer is at 256 medicine.

My campaign before (infantry based) I ended late 1087, day 290, and had conquered 24 towns and 26 castles.

In that campaign I was the healer with 8(5) and had reached a whooping 262 medicine.


It is really hard to see how, even with 10(5), you would get medicine (275) at a point where it is still going to make even the slightest bid of a difference. On top of that there are other basic issues. In the archer based case I am on lvl 37 after 190 days whereas going no ranged left me at lvl 36 after 290 days. So, not particularly levelling friendly either.

So, short of intentionally going out of your way to get your men killed, which is hardly the best way of progressing, its probably not going to happen.
 
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Ananda_The_Destroyer

Grandmaster Knight
If you really want to get 275 medicine faster, one good thing to do is to inspect all you clan party troops before any large battle or siege and slide all their troops into your party. Then (assuming you have doctors oath) you get all the medicine credit for the battle. If you're extra finicky you can put each stack in a clan party (after the battle) until you separate the wounded form the healthy (you always take healthy first and give wounded first ) so you can sort it so you retain all the highest tier injured troops, but you need 2 clan parties or a fief/garrison to do this. But of course this is very tinkery and IRL time wasting, so it undermines the point of a convenient skill like medicine. Also, you party leaders (hopefully) can benefit form raising thier own medicine skill too, so it;s trade off, but maybe when you're already close to 275 it can help you push for it.
 

Sweynforkbeard

Sergeant at Arms
If you really want to get 275 medicine faster, one good thing to do is to inspect all you clan party troops before any large battle or siege and slide all their troops into your party. Then (assuming you have doctors oath) you get all the medicine credit for the battle. If you're extra finicky you can put each stack in a clan party (after the battle) until you separate the wounded form the healthy (you always take healthy first and give wounded first ) so you can sort it so you retain all the highest tier injured troops, but you need 2 clan parties or a fief/garrison to do this. But of course this is very tinkery and IRL time wasting, so it undermines the point of a convenient skill like medicine. Also, you party leaders (hopefully) can benefit form raising thier own medicine skill too, so it;s trade off, but maybe when you're already close to 275 it can help you push for it.
Hmm, the problem that I see here is that you need to do a transfer before initiating a siege. So you will also have to time it right to avoid ending up with desertion.
 

Ananda_The_Destroyer

Grandmaster Knight
Hmm, the problem that I see here is that you need to do a transfer before initiating a siege. So you will also have to time it right to avoid ending up with desertion.
It's incredibly easy and I do this part all the time. You can always access the clan parties in your army before launching the attack (or battle)and you can always access them again before moving or waiting on the map after a siege or battle. This also stops clan parties from putting troops into a garrison you can't access. It's the retaining or collecting the injured that I find too tedious to do often.
 
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