Medicine most OP skill in the game

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thomas13

Regular
How do you do this?
Maxing out medicine early (focus and attribute points) and by just simply battling and sieging. Offensive siege's are great once you get siege medic because most losses just become injuries. Doctors oath really helps a lot too. Siege defenses are the best for building medicine quick. Having all high tier troops is a must because they give the most medicine xp gain. My army composition is all Fian champs and high tier infantry (any faction). In the mid game just be accustomed to some infantry losses cause it only makes you stronger in the end. But you don't need to carelessly sacrifice troops in order to get there. You can easily get there in the normal course of battling.
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
Maxing out medicine early and by just simply battling and sieging. Offensive siege's are great once you get siege medic because most losses just become injuries. Doctors oath really helps a lot too. Siege defenses are the best for building medicine quick. Having all high tier troops is a must because they give the most medicine xp gain. My army composition is all Fian champs and high tier infantry (any faction). In the mid game just be accustomed to some infantry losses cause it only makes you stronger in the end. But you don't need to carelessly sacrifice troops in order to get there. You can easily get there in the normal course of battling.
I got up to Medicine180 by normal battling but that took around eight years, not two.
 

Sweynforkbeard

Sergeant at Arms
Medicine's 275 perk is the most OP final perk in the game. Hands down. It can be reached by year 86 if maxed out early and you don't have to sacrifice or waste units to do it. All your units become tanks and in late game you rarely have any recruiting difficulties or needs. You can conquer all of Calradia with just a 300-350 man army moving death ball.
It still doesnt make it OP. You can conquer half the world, at least by the end of 86.

There is no advantage in conquering the world with 300 men. The time it takes to set up a siegecamp primarily depend on how large a force you bring along.

The only true headaches, aside from the repetitiveness, of blitzing the world is a desperate constant need for anything that you can continue to thow into recently conquered fiefs, to provide a skeleton garrison, and the need for more and more vassals. And the later of these is probably more an ocd issue rather than an actual problem.
 

thomas13

Regular
It still doesnt make it OP. You can conquer half the world, at least by the end of 86.

There is no advantage in conquering the world with 300 men. The time it takes to set up a siegecamp primarily depend on how large a force you bring along.

The only true headaches, aside from the repetitiveness, of blitzing the world is a desperate constant need for anything that you can continue to thow into recently conquered fiefs to provide a skeleton garrison and the need for more and more vassals. And the later of these is probably more an ocd issue rather than an actual problem.
If medicines final perk isn't OP than nothing is in this game. All you've said just goes to show how pathetically easy it is to conquer calradia.

Depends what you consider an advantage. Having fewer men that are stronger tricks the AI into thinking a siege offensive is winnable with severely overwhelming numbers. You can lure in and take out at least a 2000 man armies in defensive sieges. Even bigger ones than normal. It allows you to do more with less. Plus you don't have to recruit often except to fill up garrisons.

Medicines FINAL perk is the most OP in the game.

The problem is that the game doesn't give you enough of a challenge to make most if not all perks absolutely necessary in order to win. The perks we are given are for a much harder game than the one we've been given.
 
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Sweynforkbeard

Sergeant at Arms
If medicines final perk isn't OP than nothing is in this game. All you've said just goes to show how pathetically easy it is to conquer calradia.

Depends what you consider an advantage. Having fewer men that are stronger tricks the AI into thinking a siege offensive is winnable with severely overwhelming numbers. You can lure in and take out at least a 2000 man armies in defensive sieges. Even bigger ones than normal.

Medicines FINAL perk is the most OP in the game.

The problem is that the game doesn't give you enough of a challenge to make most if not all perks absolutely necessary in order to win. The perks we are given are for a much harder game than the one we've been given.
Has anyone claimed that the game is particularly hard... you are free to take the perk or TW could nerf the perk all the want (not likely)

Personally, I just dont waste points on INT related skills. None of them provides any meaningful benefits within a timeframe that is relevant.
 

thomas13

Regular
Has anyone claimed that the game is particularly hard... you are free to take the perk or TW could nerf the perk all the want (not likely)

Personally, I just dont waste points on INT related skills. None of them provides any meaningful benefits within a timeframe that is relevant.
If you're speed running the game no final perk has any meaningful benefit within a timeframe that is relevant. So what is your point...
 

Sweynforkbeard

Sergeant at Arms
If you're speed running the game no final perk has any meaningful benefit within a timeframe that is relevant. So what is your point...
There are other skills and perks that I do find useful. Hell, even the arguably much small health bonuses from the vigor tree are ok simply because you can get them so much faster.
 
Medicines FINAL perk is the most OP in the game.
It's not, Trade and Tactics' final perks, as well as Mounted Patrols + Keen Sight combo (and arguably One of the Family + Veteran's Respect as well) are all stronger, with scouting final perk being comparable imo. The problem with medicine final perk is that getting the perk makes it so much harder to level up further, and medicine perks besides the final one are not that useful. It takes a lot of time to level up medicine even if you allocate all your points to it at the start. In comparison, even if it's incredibly slow to level, tactics perks make auto-resolves so much better that when you stack all the optimal perks before you even reach the final perk at 275, you've already won the game.
 

thomas13

Regular
It's not, Trade and Tactics' final perks, as well as Mounted Patrols + Keen Sight combo (and maybe One of the Family + Veteran's Respect as well) are all stronger, with scouting final perk being comparable imo. The problem with medicine final perk is that getting the perk makes it so much harder to level up further, and medicine perks besides the final one are not that useful. It takes a lot of time to level up medicine even if you allocate all your points to it at the start.
Mounted patrols and keen sight aren't final perks. From what I hear trade's final perk takes so long (without exploits) that it's even harder to level than medicine for most and its crazy expensive to buy fiefs. Plus, this game was made to battle and fiefs are easy to take without buying them. Tactics... f*** tactics. Tactics is a terrible perk tree. If your going to battle your way to the top then battle. Veterans respect isn't a final perk and with medicine at 275 you don't even need the recruiting benefits of that perk. Medicine perks are very useful for keeping your troops alive. Unless your cheesing sieges or battles. If your playing with Khans Guard then it might not be useful because those players usually micro manage their troops a lot more especially with RTS mod. Getting medicine by year 86 isn't a lot of time compared to any other final perk with exception to maybe charm. But influence in late game isn't needed because you get an overabundance from battling. Like I said most if not all perks in the game aren't needed and are completely arbitrary for conquering all of calradia. Scouting and Trade final perk are strong but I'd argue medicine is stronger. If you are trading your way to the top I'm assuming your playthrough looks much different than players who battle their way to the top. That's just a playstyle preference.
 
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Mounted patrols and keen sight aren't final perks.
Which makes them better due to requiring less investment (only 1 in cunning if you started with 2), Same for One of the Family + Veteran's Respect, but even better due to requiring no attribute investments and only requiring 4 focus points for each skill.
From what I hear trade's final perk takes so long (without exploits) that it's even harder to level than medicine for most and its crazy expensive to buy fiefs. Plus, this game was made to battle and fiefs are easy to take without buying them.
I haven't tried a trader run since 1.8, but it wasn't bad to level nor buy fiefs due to the skill tree actually complementing the skill, It may even be easier now due to caravans becoming much more profitable and reliable (workshops are kinda poopoo, but if you know how to monopolize production, they become beastly)
Tactics... f*** tactics. Tactics is a terrible perk tree. If your going to battle your way to the top then battle.
I mean I agree, tactics is terribly designed and levels up ridiculously slow, but its final perk (as well as other perks in conjunction with the skill tree even if you don't have the final perk) is still better than medicine's
Scouting and Trade final perk are strong but I'd argue medicine is stronger. If you are trading your way to the top I'm assuming your playthrough looks much different than players who battle their way to the top. That's just a playstyle preference.
You would be arguing wrong then (maybe except for scouting)

In the end, there are much bigger worries than the final perk of Medicine, which is not even the strongest perk. I wouldn't mind Minister of Health getting nerfed just a teeny bit, but it's one of the few good perks in a skill tree full of bad ones, a perk that is rather hard to get, and it makes the skill itself harder to level after getting it.
 
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thomas13

Regular
Which makes them better due to requiring less investment (only 1 in cunning if you started with 2), Same for One of the Family + Veteran's Respect, but even better due to requiring no attribute investments and only requiring 4 focus points.

I haven't tried a trader run since 1.8, but it wasn't bad to level nor buy fiefs due to the skill tree actually complementing the skill, It may even be easier now due to caravans becoming much more profitable and reliable (workshops are kinda poopoo, but if you know how to monopolize production, they become beastly)

I mean I agree, tactics is terribly designed and levels up ridiculously slow, but its final perk (as well as other perks in conjunction with the skill tree even if you don't have the final perk) is still better than medicine's

You would be arguing wrong then (maybe except for scouting)

In the end, there are much bigger worries than the final perk of Medicine, which is not even the strongest perk. I wouldn't mind Minister of Health getting nerfed just a teeny bit, but it's one of the few good perks in a skill tree full of bad ones, a perk that is rather hard to get, and it makes the skill itself harder to level after getting it.
I said medicine is the strongest FINAL perk in the game. Mounted patrols and keen sights etc aren't final perks. Still doesn't refute my claim.

I've never tried a trading run because I find trade boring. Playstyle preference.

Tactics makes the entire game even more arbitrary than it already is. That is why I don't even count tactics at all. What's the point in playing this game if your going to auto calc every battle..

Trading is strong not going to lie but it isn't stupid silly strong. But if you're trading your way to the top your priorities are different than someone who is battling to the top. Again playstyle preference. And you don't get trades final perk till 300.

I have not once made any claim on here that it needs to be nerfed or is a problem. All I've ever stated is that it is stupid silly strong. That's it. It seems there's no reason to nerf it cause nobody on here actually uses it anyway. I think the reason is because it was even slower to level in prior betas and nobody has really focused on it since. So everyone still has a bad taste left in their mouth from prior experiences that has prevented them from even bothering with a medicine build in the future.
 
I said medicine is the strongest FINAL perk in the game. Mounted patrols and keen sights etc aren't final perks. Still doesn't refute my claim.
I mean, the title is "Medicine most OP skill in the game", also even if it actually is the best final skill, taking the perk makes it so much harder to level medicine further.
I've never tried a trading run because I find trade boring. Playstyle preference.
Okay fine.
Tactics makes the entire game even more arbitrary than it already is. That is why I don't even count tactics at all. What's the point in playing this game if your going to auto calc every battle..
I hate tactics skill and perks as much as the next guy, believe me, but both the perk tree and the final perk itself is better than medicine final perk. I could also say, I don't count medicine because -reason- therefore it can't be the best final perk. That's not an argument. I think that having a skill tree devoted to auto-calc is incredibly stupid and unfun as well, but it's still better than medicine final perk. Let's not forget that faster map movement through scouting benefits all gamestyles as well.
Trading is strong not going to lie but it isn't stupid silly strong. But if you're trading your way to the top your priorities are different than someone who is battling to the top. Again playstyle preference. And you don't get trades final perk till 300.
It's not silly strong but it snowballs very hard, but again, it's a playstyle difference so whatever.
I have not once made any claim on here that it needs to be nerfed or is a problem. All I've ever stated is that it is stupid silly strong. That's it. It seems there's no reason to nerf it cause nobody on here actually uses it anyway. I think the reason is because it was even slower to level in prior betas and nobody has really focused on it since. So everyone still has a bad taste left in their mouth from prior experiences that has prevented them from even bothering with a medicine build in the future.
I have tried it in several playthroughs after medicine leveling got fixed/better, it's still not as fast as you claim even on player characters with 10 Int & 5 Focus investment. And as I've stated multiple times, just picking the perk at 275 makes it so much harder to level medicine further. And don't get me wrong, while getting +38 health right out the gate is pretty great, it doesn't invalidate the whole game at all (it's already invalidated by the AI being terrible at battles and archers & cav archers being busted).
 

thomas13

Regular
I mean, the title is "Medicine most OP skill in the game", also even if it actually is the best final skill, taking the perk makes it so much harder to level medicine further.

Okay fine.

I hate tactics skill and perks as much as the next guy, believe me, but both the perk tree and the final perk itself is better than medicine final perk. I could also say, I don't count medicine because -reason- therefore it can't be the best final perk. That's not an argument. I think that having a skill tree devoted to auto-calc is incredibly stupid and unfun as well, but it's still better than medicine final perk. Let's not forget that faster map movement through scouting benefits all gamestyles as well.

It's not silly strong but it snowballs very hard, but again, it's a playstyle difference so whatever.

I have tried it in several playthroughs after medicine leveling got fixed/better, it's still not as fast as you claim even on player characters with 10 Int & 5 Focus investment. And as I've stated multiple times, just picking the perk at 275 makes it so much harder to level medicine further. And don't get me wrong, while getting +38 health right out the gate is pretty great, it doesn't invalidate the whole game at all (it's already invalidated by the AI being terrible at battles and archers & cav archers being busted).
That's fair I should of been more specific in my title but the first post and countless others since have been more specific. It does take a little longer than most after getting 275 but still very viable.

Tactics is strong but it breaks the game. That is why I don't count it. Medicine doesn't break the game. Although if we are being honest the game is broken regardless because most if not all perks are completely futile. None are needed to conquer all of calradia. So my entire argument could be futile to begin with. I don't play with tactics for the same reason I don't mass archers on one side during an offensive siege because it breaks the game. Making features completely futile. Though this game has tendency to do that with a lot of things. Extra speed is a strong final perk and has a lot of benefits but still not as strong as medicine. You don't need speed to chase down armies. But if you like fighting outnumbered and getting a lot of defensive sieges on demand medicine is super strong

It snowballs like anything else. Exactly.

It can be as fast as I said if you make adjustments to your playstyle but really it depends on a lot of factors. It does and it doesn't, medicine makes you stronger the longer your playthrough goes on. If someone is speed running a game in under 5 years medicine 275 will have very little use for that person but so will countless other perks as well.
 

Sweynforkbeard

Sergeant at Arms
That's fair I should of been more specific in my title but the first post and countless others since have been more specific. It does take a little longer than most after getting 275 but still very viable.

Tactics is strong but it breaks the game. That is why I don't count it. Medicine doesn't break the game. Although if we are being honest the game is broken regardless because most if not all perks are completely futile. None are needed to conquer all of calradia. So my entire argument could be futile to begin with. I don't play with tactics for the same reason I don't mass archers on one side during an offensive siege because it breaks the game. Making features completely futile. Though this game has tendency to do that with a lot of things. Extra speed is a strong final perk and has a lot of benefits but still not as strong as medicine. You don't need speed to chase down armies. But if you like fighting outnumbered and getting a lot of defensive sieges on demand medicine is super strong

It snowballs like anything else. Exactly.

It can be as fast as I said if you make adjustments to your playstyle but really it depends on a lot of factors. It does and it doesn't, medicine makes you stronger the longer your playthrough goes on. If someone is speed running a game in under 5 years medicine 275 will have very little use for that person but so will countless other perks as well.
The real issue here is that the game does not become progressively more diffcult, it becomes progressively easier. There is no sense in pursuing something like medicine 275, you get the benfit too late and have to contend with a subpar (you) healer until you get it. The efficient cause of action is to focus on things that provide early benefits so you can speed up the process.

Success in lategame is nearly entirely down to numbers, and not stewardship numbers, but the kind of numbers that vassals provide.

Other things are just more useful. And, in terms of last perks then things like the athletics, in particular, or charm are decent and so so much faster to acquire.

Edit. and the end perk in tactics is hardly OP, its a convenience perk. There is nothing that the AI could do that a player could not do better; regardless of how high your tactics is.
 
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thomas13

Regular
The real issue here is that the game does not become progressively more diffcult, it becomes progressively easier. There is no sense in pursuing something like medicine 275, you get the benfit too late and have to contend with a subpar (you) healer until you get it. The efficient cause of action is to focus on things that provide early benefits so you can speed up the process.

Success in lategame is nearly entirely down to numbers, and not stewardship numbers, but the kind of numbers that vassal provide.

Other things are just more useful. And, in terms of last perks then things like the athletics, in particular, or charm are decent and so so much faster to acquire.
This is true the game just isn't challenging to begin with for experienced players. The problem is that most perks if not all perks are not needed to be successful in this game. If someone is beating the game in less then 5 years then very little is needed to make the game any easier for that player. And I'd wager that most players aren't beating the game in 5 years or less which means medicine will be very viable and highly useful for them.

Not true at all about success in late game. In my most recent playthrough I conquered all of calradia by myself. I did it with no vassals, no turning companions into vassals, no creating armies, no joining armies and no creating any parties. I painted the map with just me and my single party. And it was very easy.

Medicine made this very viable. But what also makes this viable is the fact that diplomacy is broken. I can declare war and peace whenever I want but AI factions can only declare war whenever they want. You can trap them if you choose not to declare peace. The can never trap you.

This playthrough proves that anything is viable in this game. Vassals aren't necessary for victory.

Charm is easier to acquire but offers zero benefit with its final perk. If you paint the map from battling influence isn't very important. Athletics is strong and faster to get but I'd rather every unit in my army get the added hp than me. It's more useful.
 

Sweynforkbeard

Sergeant at Arms
This is true the game just isn't challenging to begin with for experienced players. The problem is that most perks if not all perks are not needed to be successful in this game. If someone is beating the game in less then 5 years then very little is needed to make the game any easier for that player. And I'd wager that most players aren't beating the game in 5 years or less which means medicine will be very viable and highly useful for them.

Not true at all about success in late game. In my most recent playthrough I conquered all of calradia by myself. I did it with no vassals, no turning companions into vassals, no creating armies, no joining armies and no creating any parties. I painted the map with just me and my single party. And it was very easy.
Slow
Medicine made this very viable. But what also makes this viable is the fact that diplomacy is broken. I can declare war and peace whenever I want but AI factions can only declare war whenever they want. You can trap them if you choose not to declare peace. The can never trap you.
Still slower than using vassals. You could use the same logic to argue that workshops are OP because you can just leave your PC running overnight (though, I assume that those who do something like that probably have some other means to speed up time) and you would be rich.
Charm is easier to acquire but offers zero benefit with its final perk.
It saves you a couple of days in your first war of conquest, since it is the only way you can earn influence while not being a vassal/merc. And, high charm = faster relationship building = less catch and releash.
Athletics is strong and faster to get but I'd rather every unit in my army get the added hp than me. It's more useful.
My life is more important than anything else. If I go down.. then AI.. or even worse.. the first medicine perk does not work when forcerecruiting/attacking villages. I make mistakes, so it is a very useful perk to me.
 

thomas13

Regular
Slow

Still slower than using vassals. You could use the same logic to argue that workshops are OP because you can just leave your PC running overnight (though, I assume that those who do something like that probably have some other means to speed up time) and you would be rich.

It saves you a couple of days in your first war of conquest, since it is the only way you can earn influence while not being a vassal/merc. And, high charm = faster relationship building = less catch and releash.

My life is more important than anything else. If I go down.. then AI.. or even worse.. the first medicine perk does not work when forcerecruiting/attacking villages. I make mistakes, so it is a very useful perk to me.
Not slow.

No vassals means all fiefs are mine. All the tax income is mine. I can stay in one war if that's what I want. That's a terrible argument. Vassals are stupid and a pain in the ass.

Not worth it. You're reaching. If you are merc for many factions you will have plenty of relationship built up for recruiting vassals when you create a kingdom. High charm is good but added attribute points aren't worth it. I'd rather have them in intelligence or elsewhere. Plus influence is only needed the first few days of starting a kingdom for policies. That's it. From there on you get plenty from battle without 275 charm.

My life is more important which is why ignoring death chance and 50% less chance to die in combat is valuable.
 

Sweynforkbeard

Sergeant at Arms
Not slow.
Very
No vassals means all fiefs are mine. All the tax income is mine. I can stay in one war if that's what I want.
You can always stay in just one war. Thou art the king and influence is the currency of kings.
That's a terrible argument. Vassals are stupid and a pain in the ass.

Not worth it. You're reaching. If you are merc for many factions you will have plenty of relationship built up for recruiting vassals when you create a kingdom. High charm is good but added attribute points aren't worth it. I'd rather have them in intelligence or elsewhere. Plus influence is only needed the first few days of starting a kingdom for policies. That's it. From there on you get plenty from battle without 275 charm.
Influence is also the currency of numbers and speed. You can choose to use an exploit to get it; but if you dont, every source is valuable.
 
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