Massive merchant debt/food? (M & B complaints)

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Helldiver

Sergeant
New to the game, registered it a the same day I installed.

Love the game, like the style, wish there was a bit more fluff thrown in such as:
-Roads between towns (+Bonus to Speed, but higher likely hood of bandit spawns)
-A "flee" option (explained below)

I know the game is designed to have some bit of "realism" factor to it. But a lot of that gets thrown out the window wence you have "levels" and traditional RPG elements governing things. But what is most frustrating to me thus far has been the progression curb, among other things.

1) Seems to me higher level bandits/raiders/dark hunters are in the areas where the player starts off way to early. I've had Dark Hunters (DHs) already near Zendar (forgot the correct spelling) as early as level 6. At this level the average player just doesn't have enough group slots to have enough of a unit. Also at this level, the average player just doesn't have enough men, and the men he does have are way to low level to defeat these opponents.
-Such opponents (the level 30 ones) should be completely out of the organized kingdoms. I mean, from a realism perspective wouldn't they be a bigger threat to stability than the rather pointless skirmishes between the Vaegir and Swadian? Higher level (above the level of the local standing militias/armies) should be outside the starting realm (maybe out behind the Salt Mine areas and such)

This is not to say that you can't progress evetually given enough time and enough losses of your army. But eventually things get worse.

Too many failures and you will see the next problem:
2) No way to recruit a standing army/militia in the later game. By level 10 I found it very difficult to find militia anywhere (I had recruited all of the swadians from all towns). I ended up conscripting hordes of peasants and farmers to form up lost militias. (I didn't like Vaegirians for roleplay purposes, I wanted a full swadian company)

-Ok, this is realistic, I like it... but: You should still be able to find atleast 1 Knight at each capital, and atleast 2 Veterans/Men-at-arms in One of the counties' villages. This represents the fact that there should and would be a sergeant or two to be found among the population... :roll:
Perhaps make it level dependant or something...

In the current vanilla game if you continue to loose your armies (do to mishaps like oh I don't know; Getting overun by footmen that have over 7 speed while you're towing away at 6) like I mentioned above, it can be hard to retrain the new conscripts. Why? Because there are no more River Bandits and lower level guerillas. Either they've been absorbed into the big groups, or they've been slain by federal patrols or your own company. With what I mentioned above, the removal of the heavy hitters from the middle country, this problem shouldn't be that big. It would allow players who lost an entire division to come back to town and retrain a new force.

-Adds replay value tremendously. Gives life to the starting villages.
-The Dark Hunters, Khaergits.. should still do their massive blitzkriegs here and then until either you or the federals can push them back to the outlands.

3) This is why I think there should be a "flee" option. No not Retreat, I said "FLEE". Always, always.

-Selecting Flee gives the enemy a free attack at you with a +1 advantage bonus to their army (basicly the AI fight each other without you for one round, with the enemy gaining a bonus).
-Drops moral severely
-Gives you a 20% bonus to overland map speed for 10 seconds.
-Deducts 10-15% denars (lost supplies, etc)

This would allow you (especially in those early levels) to flee the engagement from those sea raiders/mountain bandits and so on that make the mid game seem rather discouraging.

-If points 1 and 2 are looked at, perhaps 3 would not be neccesary at all, since by the time you're fighting the big guys, you're either ready for them, or almost ready.

This brings me to the next point that is also a result of some of my complaints above:
1) Merchant Quests can lead to an almost game breaking experience in the early-mid game. Very realistic how it was done, good... but somehow I think something is wrong. Something just doesn't fit right.

-I get 7 spices from Thir to take to Reyvdin and on the way we get hit by M1Abrams equiped Dark Hunters... Loose a large portion of my men, lost 3 of those flipping sacks of spices... Turned in the spices at the designated Tavern, go to the merchant and now I owe the organization 3056 denars, plus increasing interest that so far seems to be about 25% of what I earn per day?! :mad:
-Was also escorting a team of Merchants, they got routed as well... I'm being charged for their loss as well? I mean...

So in this current game (I play on 116% difficulty, saves on exit, saves all the time) we've been forced to eat our horses and slay bandits until we can manage to scrounge up enough denars to pay the debts.

3000+ denars is not something a level 10-15 finds easy to get especially with the above problems. I had enough difficulty getting myself and Marnid equipped to even dream about 3000 denars, which at the current rate will end up being 4000 denars before I can pay it off. This is absurd, they won't take paymets, or do a refinance so that I can reduce the interest by paying lump sums. Don't give me the "business like we have today didn't exist... BS because if they can charge me interest, he can sure as hell break it up into payments, or allow me to begin paying the debt so he knows I'm in good faith. This would make the denars gained due to interest being proportional. Or you could have it so that the base interest increases the longer it takes you to make your payments. Example: "You have 3 days to pay 15% of the debt to the guild".

Its a complete almost game over spiral, unless I missed something?

Only horses as an alternate food source? Realistic again, but forced realism should be balanced by realism. Why can't I go to a different merchant to buy alternate foodstuffs? Yes I know that some bandits have food on them, but that can be a turkey shoot, as well as in the early-mid levels, especially after a massacre of your force, you might not be able to do that.

The Merchant shouldn't shut his shop to me because of a failed mission. He shouldn't give me more missions. But I should still be able to trade with him.
-In the above situation a player that owes a merchant a debt due to a failed mission; The merchant would then charge him a 20-25+% tax on all goods the player purchases from him (until the player pays off the debt).
-How will the player pay the debt if he can't: A) Get missions, B) Do merchantry trade?) Aside from going on a killing/slave driving spree?

Anyhow. If I overlooked something, am missing something, or if any of you have strategies I could use in my above situation, feel free to point them out. The game is stupendous. I find myself severly hooked on it (coming from a long time WoW/EQ/SWG/UO/NwN player..)

regards!
 
Assuming things have not changed in the newest versions (7.10 and 7.11) you can still buy food from the merchant at the salt mines. I think he isn't a member of the merchants guild. I agree that is nearly a game breaker, but I try to avoid those missions anyway and when I have done them and ran into the same situation as you there is little or nothing more satisfying than paying off that debt. The best way to pay it off is to do high end quests for nobles such as capturing the nobleman or destroying the raiders. Slavery is also a good option. The flee idea could be interesting, but would bias the game severly in favor of the player and if the computer could do it, would be rather annoying. In order to escape the high level guys I advise increasing the party's spotting and pathfinding skills, perhaps even buy some extra horses. I don't typically run into this problem too often and if I do get attacked by Khergits a horde of peasants told to hold position can often lead to victory. Unfortunately, against the Dark Knights there is no simple solution. Ohhh and by the way, welcome to the forums.
 
Helldiver said:
1) Seems to me higher level bandits/raiders/dark hunters are in the areas where the player starts off way to early. I've had Dark Hunters (DHs) already near Zendar (forgot the correct spelling) as early as level 6. At this level the average player just doesn't have enough group slots to have enough of a unit. Also at this level, the average player just doesn't have enough men, and the men he does have are way to low level to defeat these opponents.

There is a very simple solution to this problem that every single person on this board uses. When you run into these groups and your level is less than 20, run your freaking *** off. You should easily be able to outrun anything except black khergits. Sooner or later a group of farmers will lead them off on a wild goose chase and you won't see them again for a while.

p.s. If you think Dark Knights are evil, wait until you run into a pack of Swadain Crossbowmen and their heat seeking bolts of death.

Helldiver said:
2) No way to recruit a standing army/militia in the later game. By level 10 I found it very difficult to find militia anywhere (I had recruited all of the swadians from all towns). I ended up conscripting hordes of peasants and farmers to form up lost militias. (I didn't like Vaegirians for roleplay purposes, I wanted a full swadian company)

Just wait a while, it takes a few game days for new miltia to show up in the taverns. Also throw two or three points into trainer and you should be able to whip a group of fifteen peasants into miltia in four game days.

Helldiver said:
3) This is why I think there should be a "flee" option. No not Retreat, I said "FLEE". Always, always.

-Selecting Flee gives the enemy a free attack at you with a +1 advantage bonus to their army (basicly the AI fight each other without you for one round, with the enemy gaining a bonus).
-Drops moral severely
-Gives you a 20% bonus to overland map speed for 10 seconds.
-Deducts 10-15% denars (lost supplies, etc)

Maybe some time in the future, but on the list of feature to be added there are a lot that would/should take priority over this.

Helldiver said:
-I get 7 spices from Thir to take to Reyvdin and on the way we get hit by M1Abrams equiped Dark Hunters... Loose a large portion of my men, lost 3 of those flipping sacks of spices... Turned in the spices at the designated Tavern, go to the merchant and now I owe the organization 3056 denars, plus increasing interest that so far seems to be about 25% of what I earn per day?! Mad
-Was also escorting a team of Merchants, they got routed as well... I'm being charged for their loss as well? I mean...

Those missions are VERY risky to take early on, a general rule of thumb is don't do missions until you have third tier troops at your disposile and are a decent level.
 
I agree that debt payment should be broken up into increments. Say, it is always broken into 10 parts and you have an option to pay 1 part or the whole debt. I don't see why a merchant would not accept partial payments...
 
-Roads would give a great element of strategy to the map view. They would give you the benifit of added speed, at the chance of a greater likely hood of bandits.

Should you take the road all the way from point A to B? Or should you take it halfway, then get off the road, go through the forest and then get back on the road... and so on.

-Bridges, all rivers are impassable terrain as they are. Why not have bridges? Again bridge crossing points are heavily infested with bandits/enemies/federals. The river behind Zendar could certainly use a bridge for those trips to Thil (sorry I forget how to spell some of those town names)

When engaged in a fight on a road, the real-time combat zone you conduct the fight in has road texturing/geometry. When engaged in a fight over a bridge the combat zone has a river with a bridge going over it.

To answer some of the help:
Thank you so much, I shall try the suggestions tonight.
Assuming things have not changed in the newest versions (7.10 and 7.11) you can still buy food from the merchant at the salt mines.
-Thank you, will check it out.

The flee idea could be interesting, but would bias the game severly in favor of the player and if the computer could do it, would be rather annoying.

-In a way the computer does do it. I've yet to chase down River Bandits with my company. They run pretty fast before we can over run them, followed by them vanishing. Perhaps allow us to hide as well? Make it dependant on some skill? Tactics?

perhaps even buy some extra horses.
-My NPC follower has a horse. You mean I can buy more horses for the rest of the company? Confused here. I don't believe we can do that.

When you run into these groups and your level is less than 20, run your freaking *** off
-Well, thus far they rate at speed 9.0 to 9.3. At the level I've been sacked I clocked at about 8.1 (best time, with Excellent moral, Marnid and I had the charger with speed 10). Yeah, 9.3 from heavy proffesional cavalry. That is one motivated mason.

Just wait a while, it takes a few game days for new miltia to show up in the taverns. Also throw two or three points into trainer and you should be able to whip a group of fifteen peasants into miltia in four game days.

-Yeah in my "live" game I built up my current army from pure peasants and 3 militiamen. Managed to sack a group of Plains raiders (I forget their names) that had an entire company captive! That was my company! :eek: Fired all the peasants, promoted a few men-at-arms, footmen, sharpshooters, and off we went into the sunset. So the moral is that a mob of 30+ peasants is something to fear. :lol:

Those missions are VERY risky to take early on, a general rule of thumb is don't do missions until you have third tier troops at your disposile and are a decent level.

-The merchant really needs to make you aware of that. The first time I had a problem was because I sold all the goods by accident. Didn't think much of it, but the second time was a disaster.

Again, thanks to all for the help and replies!
 
-Well, thus far they rate at speed 9.0 to 9.3. At the level I've been sacked I clocked at about 8.1 (best time, with Excellent moral, Marnid and I had the charger with speed 10). Yeah, 9.3 from heavy proffesional cavalry. That is one motivated mason.

Then my friend, you game is bugged. Black Khergits are the fastest overland map enemies and I have never EVER seen them move faster than 8.7. Most other enemies can barely break 7.5 and all foot soldier groups are usually 4.3-6.7.

Also your speed on the map has nothing to do with your horse. Its based on pathfinding, riding/athletics, how much stuff your lugging around, how many spare horses you have, and the average speed of your party and prisoners.
 
I don't think that 9.0-9.3 for certain groups is that unusual, and his game is certainly not bugged if that happens.
And yes, it is possible to increase your party speed with spare horses in your inventory. Early in game I think stubborn saddle horses with a speed rating of 8 offer the best compromise of price/speed. I have ~9-12 spare horses, mostly saddle horses +3 coursers and reach map speeds of ~7.0 with +5 pathfinding from Borcha, with only ~10 mounted troops and the rest various kinds of swadian infantry.

With respect to merchant missions, choose those which don't send you accross the map, e.g. from Wercheg (sp?) to Veluca (sp?). I just did one such escort of a caravan and it is a nightmare, at times with 3+ bandit groups at my or the caravans heels, and the caravan just fleeing and not following my lead. Instead, take missons that send you just two or three towns away. They pay not as good as the far missions, but are fairly safe. If you can't avoid an engagement, you might consider to make them attack the caravan to have additional experienced troops fighting for you.
The bandit missions are also fairly easy and give good experience (for you as well as Marcha and Bornid).

Early in game, stay away from Darks, Khergits and I'd add Sea Raiders (my personal arch nemesis with all their jarids, javelins and throwing axes in the usually open terrain between Zendar and Wercheg...)
 
For map speed the type of horse does not make any difference, A Spirited courser does just the same then a lame sumpter horse.

Yes additional horses in the party speed up your map speed when carrying lots of goods. IMHO there should be one horse for every 4 pieces of trade goods you carry.

Also good to know is that you do not have to carry the horses yourself, Give them your hero that you are training up as lancer.
 
Helldiver said:
3) This is why I think there should be a "flee" option. No not Retreat, I said "FLEE". Always, always.

-Selecting Flee gives the enemy a free attack at you with a +1 advantage bonus to their army (basicly the AI fight each other without you for one round, with the enemy gaining a bonus).

Isn't this pretty much what happens if you press Tab in a battle?
 
Isn't this pretty much what happens if you press Tab in a battle?

-Typically the computer gets a significant advantage when you select "Retreat"

I've had a 30 man company with 5 Knights, 13+ Men-at-arms, 10 or so Crossbowmen-Skirmishers, and Infantry get spanked by river bandits/forest bandits just becuase I accidently hit the "have your men charge while you stay back option". Which I think should be placed further below (all the way at the bottom) so as to not cause an accidental mouseclick when going through this menu. But thats besides the point.
In the exampled engagement above, 2 Knights were killed, 2 MaAs, and 2 Skirmishers. This was versus about 34 River/Forrest bandits combined (or perhaps it was Sea Raiders, I forget).

Not to mention I always loose the most valuable men (knights/MaAs etc).

The computer when it sees you have a significant advantage will typically (but not always) outrun you, and proceed to vanish.

Also remember that, I doubt the computer has upkeep costs and food costs. This is also an aspect of "realism" that is missing in terms of counter balance. Those Dark Hunters with 32 men (and over 144 captives!) have been hanging out back behind Veluca now for months, raiding caravans and such. I guess it does work (since afterall my current army did the same, we ate our horses and survived mainly on selling slaves and battle spoils).

Nominally (when the situation is bad and the above scenario is created) you don't have the option to Retreat as it has been cut off. This is why flee would allow your guys to disperse or breakup and then reform again at a different location. This is why Fleeing would cost money/moral (lost supplies when your men fled, and moral do to leadership uncertainty).


And to answer the suggestion above regarding the Salt Mines; Nope, he is on the same faction/system and if you owe a life debt to the merchants he still wants to collect like all the other places. I ended up paying off the debt and now I'm doing good. In the end I payed 3118 and had 500 or so to spare (enough to pay my troops in case the week ended)

We really need an option to know what day of the week it is. This is so that we know to prepare to pay our men. I find it rather absurd that I can't keep track of what day it is, or will forget to keep count from the last day they were payed. Its unneccesary added monotny.

This information would be in the Party screen you would see:

Current Week:
Day 3/7 Weekly Wage: 212

Something like that; Then I know "hey I have 4 days to deliver these goods and make up the 212 denars to pay them, since I bought all these goods/armor/horses/pez..."

It would also help keep track of earnings; Profits vs. expenses.

Anyhow, regards to all, and again its a very addicting game!
 
Helldiver said:
Isn't this pretty much what happens if you press Tab in a battle?
...
Nominally (when the situation is bad and the above scenario is created) you don't have the option to Retreat as it has been cut off. This is why flee would allow your guys to disperse or breakup and then reform again at a different location. This is why Fleeing would cost money/moral (lost supplies when your men fled, and moral do to leadership uncertainty).
...
I like the idea of an unorganized flight, but in this case it should create a bunch of scattered groups and you should have to run up to each of them to get them back in your group. They should not automatically come back to you, to make it a serious decision to command such a flight! Basically create similar groups as the rescued prisoners.

With the game as it is right now you have another option for a fairly cheap retreat. Yesterday I ran into a group of 40+ Dark Knights/Hunters with my group of 45men, ~80% infantry. I tried to run but they caught me short before I reached Praven.
So the battle started and I got pretty fast knocked unconscious. Due to the size of the groups the battle was not finished but was supposed to go into a second round. But instead of starting a second engagement I choosed to leave, and so came back to the map view, with few losses of my force and no loss in equipment. And the best: as usual you get a little headstart on the map where your group moves while the other engaged parties stay stationary for a few seconds - just enough to get me ahead enough to reach Praven.
Downside to this was, that after the 6h in the Tavern in Praven the Caravan I was supposed to escort to Khudan got chased away by some other Bandits - Took me quite awhile to find them again in battle with some bandits, somewhere near Zendar.
Later when Borcha levelled up and reached Tracking +5 I noted that the tracks of another caravan I escorted was reported as caravan track - that would have helped...
 
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