Marriageable Freedom, Romancing, Courtship, and Family: a complete love-life and progeny overhaul suggestion

Which of these ideas if any would you like to see in Bannerlord? READ THE POST BEFORE VOTING!

  • The ability to marry Nobles, Merchants, Mercenaries, Gang Leaders, and Companions

    Votes: 93 89.4%
  • Bonuses for you depending on who you marry

    Votes: 80 76.9%
  • Accumulating bonuses for your posterity depending on who you marry

    Votes: 71 68.3%
  • Homosexual marriage

    Votes: 31 29.8%
  • Adoption

    Votes: 61 58.7%
  • Removal of upper age restrictions for marriage and the ability to arrange marriages

    Votes: 70 67.3%
  • The shadier side of marriage (eloping, homewrecking, polygamy)

    Votes: 75 72.1%
  • More control over pregnancy

    Votes: 65 62.5%
  • The ability to take control of your posterity and start a new clan, beginning a new campaign

    Votes: 65 62.5%
  • Dynamic courtship that actually feels like your are building a relationship

    Votes: 88 84.6%

  • Total voters
    104

MightyMidgit

Veteran
Best answers
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~~ YOU CAN VOTE FOR ANY NUMBER OF CHOICES IN THE POLL! ~~

*** Civil and constructive discussion only, please. If you must argue with someone, take it to personal conversations. ***

Currently in the game, marriage is a chore that bears very few benefits and is severely lacking in complexity. For those who have not tried it, you must find an unmarried noble of the opposite sex between the ages of 18 and 35 (female) or 40 (male), unless I am misinformed. You then admit your admiration, complete two persuasion events, and then buy your spouse from their clan lord. That's it. There is little actual feel of a relationship budding and blooming into something. If your potential partner and clan leader are in the same location, this process can take as little as 2 in-game days (my most recent marriage did). There are no benefits other than producing offspring (which has little merit currently anyway), a small amount of relation and influence, and maybe a useful companion that does not take a companion slot if they are combat-capable. It just feels so empty, lacking even from what was in Warband, and the game severely restricts who you can marry.

Below is my idea of an in-depth courting, marriage, and spousal relationship system, including the uses of progeny and posterity. If you like the idea of marrying merchants, mercenaries, gang leaders, companions, and commoners (yes, even that barmaid) read on. If you want possible homosexual relationships, read on. If you want a more dynamic relationship and courtship system that includes things like actual courtship, arranged marriages, eloping, homewrecking, and even polygamy, read on. If you want your progeny to have a purpose with bonuses depending on who you marry, even enabling you to start a new game in the world you created through your last playthrough, read on.

***Note 1: This is a compilation thread. I am not suggestion all this must be added together but that each is an idea that could be added to the game.***
***Note 2: When I mention "skill bonuses" below, I am referring actual skill levels.***
***Note 3: I don't know if Bannerlord has a "right to rule" or "rule acceptance" value like Warband, but I use it in my suggestions.***
***Note 4: I use the term "Homosexual Marriage" in the poll, but the suggestion involves homosexual relationships in general.***
***Note 5: Please do not argue about why homosexual relationships should not be in the game. Moderators have had to clean up too many heated arguments.***

Class Does Not Matter
Bannerlord should let you marry anyone regardless of status, and depending on who your choice of spouse is, they should come with benefits (and cons) depending on their position.

Nobility
This is not all too different than current Bannerlord, but marrying into nobility should be hard. The more influential the clan, the harder it would be to marry into it. The more influential the child (and the closer the child is in line to succession, being first son/daughter, etc.), the harder to convince the clan leader/lord to accept the marriage. However the more powerful/renowned/influential you are, the easier it will be to convince them. If powerful enough, allied or internal faction nobles might even offer their children to you and your progeny in an arranged political marriage.

Benefits:
  • Mutual ownership of any fiefs owned by the your spouse (they essentially become yours), if you are a member of the faction or it is a political marriage offer from an allied faction.
  • Bonus influence and renown.
  • Other factions will be a lot more accepting of your right to run your own kingdom (similar to Warband), and will declare war less often and war for less time.
  • You could have the chance for you or your progeny to rule your joined faction.
  • Able to use spouse's influence in faction decision making and other processes that require influence.
  • Children automatically have bonuses to Stewardship, Charm, Tactics, and Leadership.
Cons:
  • Dowry/compensation is far more expensive, the more influential the clan/desired spouse has, the more expensive.
  • If not a member of the faction, convincing your partner to marry you will be far more difficult and either result in them being stripped of their lands or them leaving their faction with possession of their lands, causing an instant declaration of war against your clan. Similarly if you are married and later convince them to leave the faction.
  • Their enemies become your enemies.

With this system in place, it may even be possible throughout the generations to win politically through marriage of you and your progeny.


Merchant
All merchants (and craftsmen/women, but I will refer to them all as merchants here) should either be eligible or have children that are eligible for marriage (children can run caravans or workshops for the merchants, and that is how you can meet them). While easier to marry into a merchant family than a noble family, it may still be difficult unless you are either powerful/influential, you have a high Trade skill, you are wealthy, or your daily income is very positive.

Benefits:
  • You share ownership of all caravans and workshops under that merchant (essentially they become yours).
  • Gain access to stock produced by the merchant for free to sell/trade where you see fit.
  • Your progeny can run caravans that are more productive/wealthy than those run by companions and that have a much larger guard.
  • Your progeny can head workshops, gaining an increase in production and revenue cap.
  • A little benefit in acceptance of rule from other factions if you decide to start your own country, but not much.
  • Children automatically have bonuses to Stewardship, Trade, Smithing, and Engineering
Cons:
  • Dowry/compensation can still be a little expensive
  • Gang leaders will not deal with you, or will deal with you more harshly.
  • Bandits will be emboldened and target you more often.

With this system in place, you and your progeny can take over production and trade in all cities, gaining control over the flow of all money, eventually enabling you win through mercantilism by buying the world.

Mercenary
Many players have suggested the opportunity to roleplay as mercenaries, so this is an expansion of this idea. Members of mercenary clan (minor) factions such as the Brotherhood of the Woods in Vlandia should be marriageable. Unlike Nobles and Merchants, there are few requirements for marriage acceptance from the clan leader, however renown does improve chances of acceptance more so than wealth, power, or influence.

Benefits:
  • The unique troop tree of the mercenary clan becomes available as an upgrade path for any recruits you hire. As these units are often slightly more powerful than equivalent tier troops, this can make your armies stronger.
  • Wages when hired by factions is improved.
  • Minor increase in troop experience gain, and passive experience gain for troops of the corresponding minor faction's troop tree.
  • Dowry/compensation is cheap.
  • Children automatically have bonuses to Tactics, Riding or Athletics, and the two dominant combat traits for the faction (such as Bows for the Brotherhood of the Woods).
Cons:
  • No benefit in acceptance of rule from other factions if you desire to start your own kingdom.
  • Faction enemies become your enemies.

With this system in place, you and your progeny can take over all minor factions through marriage, gaining you access to the troop trees of all those factions. This allows you to create more varied and powerful armies for the faction you join or kingdom you create, making winning through conquest easier.

Gang Leader
Currently there is very little as far as the underworld aspects of Bannerlord. Marriage into gang factions can enable stronger influence in the underworld and the darker side of politics. Gang leaders should be marriageable or have children who are. There would be no requirements that help or hinder marriage acceptance from a gang leader, but they may provide a difficult task for you to prove your worth such as capturing an influential political figure, incapacitating or assassinating an political figure, infiltrating a castle or keep, rescuing someone from prison, etc.

Benefits:
  • No dowry/compensation for marriage other than a potential task to complete.
  • A portion of the wealth of the city where the gang leader holds influence will be added to your daily income.
  • Sneaking into an enemy city where your gang has influence become much easier.
  • You can freely buy and sell items through your gang while in disguise in an enemy city where your gang holds influence.
  • If desired, you can attempt to incapacitate or assassinate nobility who reside in or visit a city where your gang holds influence. Incapacitation prevents the nobility from taking action for a prolonged period of time (similar to assassination attempts against you in Warband), and assassination outright kills the noble.
  • Gain the ability to secretly incite war or influence peace for factions where your gang holds influence.
  • Children automatically have bonuses to Roguery, Scouting, and Medicine.
Cons:
  • Very strong negative influence to acceptance of rule by other factions, and so long as you have gang leaders in your ancestry, that negative influence lingers. Factions will war with you more often and stay at war with you longer. The more gangs in your family, the stronger the negative influence, but the negative influence weakens the more generations pass without a gang member married into the family.
  • Acceptance of marriage by merchants and faction leaders decreases.
  • Merchants and trade will either not deal with you or will deal harsher with you.

With this system in place, you and your progeny can take over all gangs in all cities, enabling you to manipulate politics from behind the scenes and allowing you to function even if the world is at war with you.

Companion
Companion marriage is a marriage of passion, as the benefits of companion marriage are lesser than the others, and there is no power/influence/wealth requirements so long as the companion likes you. The benefits of a companion marriage vary depending on the companion's backstory.

Benefits:
  • Children have much stronger bonuses to the four top skills of your companion.
  • Slight increase in acceptance of rule with factions if your companion is a fallen noble.
  • Merchants deal with you slightly better if you companion is a fallen merchant.
  • Gangs deal with you slightly better if your companion is an outcast.
  • Factions pay slightly better for mercenary work if your companion is a mercenary.
  • Villages deal slightly better with you if your companion is a commoner.
Cons:
  • Losing out on the specific bonuses of marriage into other social classes.
  • Negative effect on acceptance of rule by other factions if your partner is not a fallen noble. They will war with you more often and for longer.

With this system in place, your progeny can quickly stack skill bonuses, creating very powerful characters.

Peasant/Commoner
Ever see a peasant, villager, barmaid, bard, or other commoner that just happens to catch your fancy? You should be able to marry them too. Talking to a commoner and expressing your admiration of them makes them a named character (so they appear in the encyclopedia with stats and everything, idea borrowed from GG Cannon). They are easy to marry with little to no requirements.

Benefits:
  • Children have stronger bonuses to YOUR top four skills.
  • Villages deal better with you if your spouse is a commoner.
  • Villages have better troops for recruitment.
  • Commoners are all very low level, so if you put them in your party, you can level them as you please.
Cons:
  • Negative effect on acceptance of rule by other factions. They will war with you more often and for longer.
  • Commoners are all very low level, so if you are looking for a partner that is immediately useful, a commoner will not help much.

With this system in place, your progeny can quickly stack skill bonuses, creating powerful characters, although the bonuses are not as strong as if marrying a companion. The difference is that you get to specifically choose those bonuses by how you level up your character. If you have a play style you like and want you children to be even stronger in it, this makes that possible. You also can get stronger immediate armies through recruiting eliminating much of the low-tier grinding. Imagine being a peasant king/queen with nothing but commoners in your long lineage, giving you nothing but tier three or possibly higher troops for recruitment directly from any village in your kingdom. Of course, working up to that point might take many generations, and thus a long time.

Gender Does Not Matter
I use the term "Homosexual Marriage" in the poll, but the suggestion involves homosexual romance in general (which did exist in medieval times, even if not in "official" marriage unions).

We should be able to have romances with a man or woman no matter if we are male or female. There could even be a campaign setting option that is disabled by default, and only when enabled does the dialog options for same sex romance appear. This way if people don't want it in their game (as for some it is controversial), it's simply not there until it is willingly activated.

To account for historical accuracy many nobles' and factions' opinion of you could drop severely for officially announcing your homosexual union (aka marriage). Otherwise, you could keep your homosexual romance secret, hush-hush, so that it does not affect your political standings. That would be far more historically accurate, as many of the commenters in this thread who appose the term "marriage" in this context have stated.

Each eligible romance partner in game could have a hidden value of "leaning tendency" that influences their acceptance to homosexual relationships. Far one direction means they are resistant to it and far the other direction means they are accepting of it. To enable freedom for the player, no candidate should be 100% opposed, but for those against it, it will take a lot more influence, a higher opinion of the player, and potentially a much higher dowry/compensation to the powers at be for the marriage if you choose to make it official, or they might outright refuse. (To keep with some historical accuracy, most people will have some level of aversion to it unless it is common in their culture.)

The Progeny Question
As homosexual couples cannot biologically produce children together, there can be alternative options available to them, adoption for gay/lesbian couples (and hetero couples for that matter), and donors for lesbian couples. Both adopted children and children conceived through the help donors gain the marriage skill bonuses of your spouse's associated class, because skills are taught, not hereditary.

Adoption:
  • Only children pre-teen and younger can be adopted.
  • Adoption can be available to heterosexual relationships as well.
  • Skills that children have before adoption remain in addition to the skill benefits from you and your spouse, but overlapping skills are not added (the highest level is used).
  • Towns can have orphans wandering the streets, or you can get an offer to adopt one in taverns.
  • Towns can also have orphanage additions built in them to make orphans easier to access, so you can find them in one place. Orphanages could also improve town prosperity slightly as an added bonus.
  • Children with living parents can potentially be adopted directly from other social classes, increasing your relationship with that faction, merchant, gang, etc.
    • Adoption of noble children can increase acceptance of rule, but will usually be expensive. It will be easier if the player is a member of that faction and already liked by the parents.
  • Villages may have quests for adopting children if you tell the village leaders you are looking.
  • If you have an unwanted child, you might be able to offer your child up for adoption, although it should probably give you a point in cruelty or similar for doing so.
Donors:
  • If both you and your spouse have a high relationship with a male, you can request him to impregnate you or your spouse.
  • Depending on the status of the donor and how friendly your relationship, they may or may not request compensation.
  • Requesting a donor can increase your relationship with a faction, merchant, gang, etc.
  • Because you or your spouse is giving birth, there are no lingering bonuses from the donor parent.

This enables homosexual couples to gain every progeny advantage of heterosexual couples. As far as adoption goes, there may be additional benefits to both homo- and heterosexual couples.

Age Should Matter Less
Just because you get middle-aged and older does not mean you suddenly become unqualified for love. Men and Women can have children at ages older than 40, and elderly couples can still adopt! The age restrictions should be removed, within reason. We don't need the ability to marry children. That's wrong. However, marriage agreements/proposals for teens could be possible (and were quite common in the past, especially among merchants and nobility), that way you can solidify relations with that faction/class/clan before the parents agree to a different marriage after their child reaches adulthood. The marriages will then be conducted once the child comes of age, however the child may still be opposed, so building your relationship with the family and marriage candidate may be necessary. All other marriage benefits would then apply after marriage. As the leader of your clan, you could possibly have the power to arrange marriages for your clan to further influence politics. You already have to go to the clan leaders and other powers at be (if applicable) for permission when you get married, you should have that same control over your clan. (Idea to arrange your clan member marriages borrowed from FredFirefly.)

For marriages with a large age difference, marriage acceptance should become more difficult the wider the gap. For example, a father might not want an 80 year old mercenary to wed his 18 year old daughter. Likewise, it might be more difficult for that daughter to accept your proposal.

If this is implemented, players can marry their grey fox or sugar mamma, find love in their wise years, and you could arrange marriages either between you and another or your children and another's children to whatever ends you are working towards.

Dynamic Courtship
Courtship is currently dull and nothing more than a RNG questionnaire that if failed forever ruins your chances with your desired partner. That is simply poor game design. Building a relationship should be dynamic and take longer than 2 in-game days to complete.

Building the Relationship
If you and your desired partner have just met, building a relationship should be more than just admitting you have the hots for you partner and then answering a few questions. Affection score is already built into the game. You should have to increase it to a suitable level before admiration talks even begin. This can be done through gift giving, quests, ousting rival gang leaders, eliminating nearby bandit dens, etc.; the same way relations normally increase in game.

In addition to this, there should be a hidden "interest" value that is associated with the time you spend on this person. This value is what truly determines whether they will agree to marry you or not. How often you visit them increases this value and shows that you are indeed interested in them. Even if your affection score is high, if you are never around, what reason would that person have to marry you? Of course after marriage, you may be off at war or elsewhere regularly, but at least your spouse knows by that point that you care. This may be easier or harder depending on who the target of your affection is. Nobles active on the field may be harder to find regularly. Merchants running caravans are the same. But, once you do find them you can travel with them, protect them, etc. Speaking with them every day or every few days increases this value. Fighting along side them increases this value. Companions would be the easiest, because if they are in your party, you are with them all the time.

If your affection and interest levels are not high enough, even if you express your admiration of them, they will simply turn you down. Expressing your desire too early might even lower OR increase affection levels depending on your desired partner's personality. The amount of interest required for courtship to begin depends on their position and status, your position and status, their personality, and matching/compatible traits. A hopeless romantic commoner companion would have a very low threshold (possibly immediate acceptance), and the leader of a faction would be incredibly difficult with an extraordinarily high interest threshold to meet before acceptance.

Special Requests, Building Interest
Once you have explained your desire and it has been accepted, then the courtship officially starts. You must continue building your "interest", and your partner might occasionally send for you when they want to see you or request your help in various matters. Visit them at their castle/keep. They are holding a tournament or feast. They want you to escort their caravan. Their brother has been imprisoned. They want you to join their faction. These are essentially quests without the regular rewards. Instead, completing these tasks builds your partners interest in YOU (in reality, it would simply be improving that same interest value faster). At this point you may also give special courtship gifts that increase that interest.

Once interest reaches a certain point, you can officially bring up marriage. Similar to beginning courtship, the interest level required for marriage depends on the same factors and may be higher or lower depending on this compatibility.

Convincing The Higher Powers
The final requirement now is convincing the clan leader, parent, lord, etc. if applicable depending on the status of your partner. Not all potential partners will require this step. There is not too much to it other than building your relationship with that power and meeting special requirements or needs. For lords, they may outright require you to join their associated faction before accepting your marriage to their child (or them). Clan leaders may have the same requirement if they have a very high opinion of their faction's lord. Others might have quests they want you to complete to prove your worth. Most will require some kind of marriage compensation of monetary or item value. If it's a lord's child, and the lord does not have a high opinion of you, that might mean you have to pay the value of a fief for them to accept the marriage.

Eloping
Some of the requests or requirements may not be worth the trouble to you, or perhaps you might not even be able to complete them in an extreme case (such as owning no fief, and the lord requests one). You always have the option of eloping. Eloping requires a much higher affection and interest rate with your desired spouse, because it essentially means them breaking ties with their family. When you elope, you lose all faction association benefits of the marriage, and it can even result in strong negatives and a long war between your clan and the parents' faction. At least you have your desired spouse. Love conquers all!

Homewreckers
This is a special case of courtship that essentially removes the "is this person single" requirement from marriageability checks in the game. Courtship works more or less the same as a single person, except that a much higher affection and interest score is needed. In addition to this, you must have a much higher score than your desired partner's current spouse, and this might be impossible if their affection is high enough or their personality is averse to cheating. Here there is no convincing of the higher powers. Marriage is treated exactly like eloping, but with the inclusion of not only the parents but also the former spouse and that spouse's faction. Be warned, because if you do not keep relations up with your partner, this might just happen to you!

Polygamy
This is another special courtship case where you begin courtship with another potential partner after you are already married. You can build relationships with others and even interest if your are with them often (as these can build naturally), but once you admit your affection for them, problems may arise. Polygamy, mistresses, courtesans, concubines, etc. are often tied to cultural differences, so how your current spouse reacts to learning of your admittance of affection for another (and they will learn of it) depends a bit on this as well as other factors. The more your spouse is against it and the more you increase interest in your new potential partner after your declaration of affection to that partner, the more rapidly your current spouse's affection and interest score plummets.

Factors that influence polygamy acceptance:
  • Personality, are they for or against this (could possibly have a hidden polyamory value).
  • Culture of polygamy for their faction
  • Affection between your spouse and the new partner, do they like or hate each other.
  • Your power and influence.
  • Your partner's power and influence.
  • The number of children you have with your partner.
If you are very powerful and influential and your partner is not, the possibility of you being able to manage multiple partners increases. If you are the emperor or empress of the world, no one can really stop your from having a royal harem. I can honestly imagine someone attempting to marry the entire world, but if that is possible, I guess it is another win condition, because all the world would then belong to you.

Note that child skill bonuses do not combine with other concurrent marriages, only being affected by you and the other parent of the child. You cannot marry a noble and a gang leader at the same time and have the noble's child obtain the skill bonuses of both and vice versa.

Heirs and Posterity
What is the end goal of all of this, besides the ability to marry your dream person (or persons). It is the ability to create offspring to continue your lineage. Bannerlord has death in it, which I think is an awesome idea if done right. When you die, either from being beheaded by an enemy or from old age, you should have the ability to take control of your child or grandchild or other living descendant, teenage or older.

Controlling Pregnancy and Adoption
Pregnancy should not happen randomly, especially if you are never near your spouse. There needs to be an option in conversation with your partner to "try for children." When that option is active. Any time you are in close proximity with your spouse (either in the same party, the same town/castle, or traveling near each other on the map), there is a chance that you or your spouse will become pregnant. If you want to stop trying for children, there would then be a conversation option deactivate this. You can then have as many or as few children as you want.

The option to try for children could also become available after you reached the point where your partner accepts your marriage proposal before you obtain permission from the powers at be. Successfully producing an heir at this point can be problematic or beneficial. It could force the hand of the powers to accept the marriage without you paying the compensation, or it could automatically activate the eloping option by making the powers absolutely refuse to accept the marriage, bringing all the negative effects of eloping.

As far as adoption goes, you have direct control over this because you must seek out a child to adopt:

Adoption:
  • Only children pre-teen and younger can be adopted.
  • Skills that children have before adoption remain in addition to the skill benefits from you and your spouse, but overlapping skills are not added (the highest level is used).
  • Towns can have orphans wandering the streets, or you can get an offer to adopt one in taverns.
  • Towns can also have orphanage additions built in them to make orphans easier to access, so you can find them in one place. Orphanages could also improve town prosperity slightly as an added bonus.
  • Children with living parents can potentially be adopted directly from other social classes, increasing your relationship with that faction, merchant, gang, etc.
    • Adoption of noble children can increase acceptance of rule, but will usually be expensive. It will be easier if the player is a member of that faction and already liked by the parents.
  • Villages may have quests for adopting children if you tell the village leaders you are looking.
  • If you have an unwanted child, you might be able to offer your child up for adoption, although it should probably give you a point in cruelty or similar for doing so.

Power Creep
The way the leveling system is currently set up, you do not have the ability to level up very high or the ability to gain a ton of skill levels. If progeny is taken into account, that might not be a terrible thing. The goal of every parent is for your children to be better off than you. The child skill bonuses make this possible. Say you keep a long line of Gang Leaders. Eventually a child that is born to the family will start out immediately with high skill levels in Roguery, Scouting, and Medicine. These bonuses do not count into leveling limits, essentially raising the "baseline" learning. A very long line of Gang Leaders could potentially create children that start out with levels as high as 200, but the learning limit treats it as if 200 is the new level 0, making it easy to level from that point on. You have the ability to select the perks you child has when born. If you mix and match marriages, you could get a wide variety of skill bonuses for your progeny and eventually enable the creation of a maxed out character without needing to cheat. That of course would take a terribly long time, so you still need to be selective about what marriages you want to take part in.

New Game Plus in the World YOU Created
Another benefit to progeny is the ability to essentially start a new game from the world you created in your last playthrough by taking control of your child/descendant and breaking off and starting your own new faction/clan, letting the AI take control of your previous faction. A few threads have suggested enabling the "Downfall of the Empire" quests for late game to make way for the development of the world that was in Warband. If you conquered the world, you could take control of one of your children, break ties with your own clan and faction, start your own, and work the difficult task of breaking down what you have built your entire campaign until that point. Make lords and clans defect and either join your cause or let them go off and start their own faction matching their ancestral faction. If you spent your entire campaign creating a global criminal underworld, you could start fresh from one of your children by breaking ties and working as an honorable mercenary to dismantle that same underworld or perhaps decide to start as a humble merchant in a world where the criminal underworld reigns and Trade is difficult.

The power of the Mount & Blade series has always been in your ability to shape the world. If the Heir/Lineage system was developed correctly, you could shape your own gaming experience.

 
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Owen Wulfson

Knight at Arms
Best answers
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I don't think homosexual marriage makes much sense in the context of the Native setting as opposed to homosexual relations. By which I mean marriage for nobles is a tool for retaining power through lineage.

Did people of the same gender have relationships throughout the early and middles ages? Of course, often, all the time. But since they couldn't have children, save by adoption and not by blood, such a formal union by marriage would have been seen as counterproductive (on top of all the other backward sensibilities of past ages).

However, being able to code such an allowance, in conjunction with modding in adoption, would actually be an important contribution for modules that take place in more open or futuristic settings.
 

Brandon

Recruit
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I would really love to see marriage have a larger impact on power dynamics. Marriages that build power dynasties, marriages that form powerful alliances, etc. When I think of marriages in the native setting these are the type of things that come to mind.
 

MightyMidgit

Veteran
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I don't think homosexual marriage makes much sense in the context of the Native setting as opposed to homosexual relations. By which I mean marriage for nobles is a tool for retaining power through lineage.

Did people of the same gender have relationships throughout the early and middles ages? Of course, often, all the time. But since they couldn't have children, save by adoption and not by blood, such a formal union by marriage would have been seen as counterproductive (on top of all the other backward sensibilities of past ages).

However, being able to code such an allowance, in conjunction with modding in adoption, would actually be an important contribution for modules that take place in more open or futuristic settings.
I agree that for nobility and merchants and the like, marriages do have meaning with regard to politics and power. For lower classes, the union was mainly for organizing pairings to produce children and continue the growth of society, and quite often there was no official "union ceremony" where the couple was just understood as a new couple. They were just a mated pairing in the anthropological sense. In that sense, how would homosexual relationships be any different than that common union? If we are going to allow the player the option to pair with commoners, gangs, and the like, why not include that same common union (let's call it "marriage" for the sake of simplicity) for homosexual relationships? For nobility, it might be seen as something worthless or even detrimental, and they might think worse of the player for it, but the player should have the choice, even in Native. This is a sandbox game.

Also, having the groundwork built into the game would certainly pave the way for modders to use it to their own ends as you say. On that account, devs implementing it is a great idea.
 
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GG Cannon

Sergeant
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
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I made a similar post on having the ability to marry just about anyone by dialogue and courtship interactions and another one on an overhaul of the relations system that fit this completely as well, so I very much support this idea of deeper interactions and more freedom like 120%
I think I even mentioned the possibility of polygamy somewhere, that it should be possible at places and with kingdoms that have either a policy allowing for it or a slider to decide if the country(or clan) supports, condemns or is neutral towards it and that it also should have both benefits and consequences, specially loss of relation to kingdoms and clans of kingdoms that disapprove of polygamy and gaining relation to those that support it.
 

MightyMidgit

Veteran
Best answers
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I made a similar post on having the ability to marry just about anyone by dialogue and courtship interactions and another one on an overhaul of the relations system that fit this completely as well, so I very much support this idea of deeper interactions and more freedom like 120%
I think I even mentioned the possibility of polygamy somewhere, that it should be possible at places and with kingdoms that have either a policy allowing for it or a slider to decide if the country(or clan) supports, condemns or is neutral towards it and that it also should have both benefits and consequences, specially loss of relation to kingdoms and clans of kingdoms that disapprove of polygamy and gaining relation to those that support it.
I like your take on this in your posts! I only included the ability to marry named people in my post, but being able to marry anyone from tavern maids to peasants is certainly an interesting idea! Perhaps I can give it some thought and add my take on that to this post. I am all for more marriageable freedom.
 

Capillati

Banned
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First things first, let them fix the relationship codes because god, they`re a mess... My girlfriend, IRA, gets swamped by enemy lords. I rush in to save her from her captors... does she care? NOPE. Never happened, wasn`t me.
Gay marriage thing is moronic in medieval age. There`s like no way it can realistically be in the game. Not if it`s about the medieval age. Sure, you had kings and nobles who had gay relations, but it was hush hush, under the cover, never in plain sight. This was rumour based, not something they paraded. Back then such rumours damaged leadership abilities severely, especially when it came to military campaigns. Not to mention the ''no heir, no kingdom'' problem. If the game is gonna be about dynasties, it`s a bit hard to have one if you can`t have children due to you enjoying the brown ring a bit too much for comfort.
 

GG Cannon

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I like your take on this in your posts! I only included the ability to marry named people in my post, but being able to marry anyone from tavern maids to peasants is certainly an interesting idea! Perhaps I can give it some thought and add my take on that to this post. I am all for more marriageable freedom.
I have been seeing a lot of people almost literally drooling to the thicc tavern maids.
Thats also why I suggested that everyone you talked, after they told you their name, should become a named character and a permanent or semi-permanent entity in that map if you revisit, so you can talk to them again and interact even more, making NPCs seem more like real people and giving a new layer of immersion.

But I really liked your post as well.
Not all medieval cultures condemned homosexuality and indeed there were a lot of people that married after a certain age and even more who had several marriages or, one thing I don't believe neither you nor I mentioned, re-married after becoming a widow.

I really want to see what TW is gonna do about relationships and its intricacies as I do believe they have been following discussions and see that there are a lot of people calling for it.

Maybe we should gather all the best posts on the theme and gather a lot of people here in the forum, forge a single compilation thread with the best aspects of these posts, tag everyone who participated or allowed the use of their content and then flood it with replies to get it to the top feedbacks and show TW just how much the community wants this new degree of "human interactions".
 

Sepone

Regular
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The courtship and married life systems need a lot of polishing, that's for sure! Right now it's as superficial as it can be. 😒
 

Teutonic_Tirade

Recruit
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I could see all of this being very possible, especially if the campaign difficulty is increased and the gameplay is extended. It may take several generations to see an empire flourish and it would make more sense to have a family. As it stands no marriage is nothing more than a neat feature in which you can play as your heir. However, if you want that to be your child currently with the pacing of the game you basically have to handicap yourself from snowballing because it hardly takes more that 10 years to complete the main quest as far as it has been implemented.
 
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Wow, that's awesome. I'm loving the list, although I do have to agree with @Owen Wulfson. I mean its great if you are trying to be forward thinking and all, but according to the period it didn't have much merit. It definitely wasn't something you advertised unless you were in and extremely high position (like your idea with polygamy, emperors and such) and didn't have to worry about losing face with the other kingdoms.

Otherwise, I really hope TW has seen this thread. With death and heirs being a (hopefully v1.0) feature in the game, this would make the game that much more interesting. In fact, one of the biggest reasons I was so exited for TW's latest title was the mortality system, and having at least some of this implemented would give my play time a few hundred hour boost just combining different family lines.

+100
 

MightyMidgit

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Gay marriage thing is moronic in medieval age. There`s like no way it can realistically be in the game. Not if it`s about the medieval age. Sure, you had kings and nobles who had gay relations, but it was hush hush, under the cover, never in plain sight. This was rumour based, not something they paraded. Back then such rumours damaged leadership abilities severely, especially when it came to military campaigns. Not to mention the ''no heir, no kingdom'' problem. If the game is gonna be about dynasties, it`s a bit hard to have one if you can`t have children due to you enjoying the brown ring a bit too much for comfort.
Why not give the player the option, though? People back then certainly had the option, so it is historically accurate. If opinions of the player have to drop after declaration of their homosexual partnership for "realism", so be it, but the player should have that choice.

As for the posterity question, adoption has been available since ancient times, especially for nobility and rulers who were unable to produce their own heir. They would adopt the children of related nobility to continue the line (usually next of kin who would have continued the line anyway). It was uncommon, but still happened.

Combine both of these, and homosexuality aided by adoption makes sense historically, even in native setting. Besides, this is a "fictional" world with "fictional" cultures only inspired by historic cultures. There is nothing saying homosexual marriage can't happen.
 

Capillati

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Why not give the player the option, though? People back then certainly had the option, so it is historically accurate.
On what planet? They had no such option. Game of thrones isn`t real history... They had such relationships, yeah, but never in public and they always had a wife (because yeah, if you were a lesbian, tough sh.t, you get free unwanted d.ck and you can`t complain). Imagine being a gay king and an enemy army comes to conquer your land. Why would anyone come to your defense? It`s not like you`re gonna have children and leave your kingdom to them ? And the adoption thing... homosexuals aren`t allowed to adopt in 99% of the world`s countries. Up until 15 - 20 years ago, in no country. Why mess up a game with stupid far left ideas? Let some modder do it if you really want it, but I wouldn`t like to see that in my game...

As for the posterity question, adoption has been available since ancient times, especially for nobility and rulers who were unable to produce their own heir. They would adopt the children of related nobility to continue the line (usually next of kin who would have continued the line anyway).
Do you just write crazy stuff with no actual base in reality and present it as absolute real facts? That`s like a 1 in a 1000 case. I actually dare you to give me more than 2 examples in any culture. Most of the time kings and nobles did have children. Even the gay ones. Unless they biologically could not. In which case, they lost their kingdom/possessions. That`s the concept you`re looking for. They didn`t give it away, it was taken. Big difference there buddy!
 
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On what planet? They had no such option. Game of thrones isn`t real history... They had such relationships, yeah, but never in public and they always had a wife (because yeah, if you were a lesbian, tough sh.t, you get free unwanted d.ck and you can`t complain). Imagine being a gay king and an enemy army comes to conquer your land. Why would anyone come to your defense? It`s not like you`re gonna have children and leave your kingdom to them ? And the adoption thing... homosexuals aren`t allowed to adopt in 99% of the world`s countries. Up until 15 - 20 years ago, in no country. Why mess up a game with stupid far left ideas? Let some modder do it if you really want it, but I wouldn`t like to see that in my game...
This. And please just let this bull**** thread die out already.
 

Sepone

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Why mess up a game with stupid far left ideas? Let some modder do it if you really want it, but I wouldn`t like to see that in my game...
Why mess up a thread with stupid far right comments? Let non-homophobics talk about it, and I wouldn't like to see you calling this your game... it is not!
 

MightyMidgit

Veteran
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On what planet? They had no such option. Game of thrones isn`t real history... They had such relationships, yeah, but never in public and they always had a wife (because yeah, if you were a lesbian, tough sh.t, you get free unwanted d.ck and you can`t complain). Imagine being a gay king and an enemy army comes to conquer your land. Why would anyone come to your defense? It`s not like you`re gonna have children and leave your kingdom to them ? And the adoption thing... homosexuals aren`t allowed to adopt in 99% of the world`s countries. Up until 15 - 20 years ago, in no country. Why mess up a game with stupid far left ideas? Let some modder do it if you really want it, but I wouldn`t like to see that in my game...

Do you just write crazy stuff with no actual base in reality and present it as absolute real facts? That`s like a 1 in a 1000 case. I actually dare you to give me more than 2 examples in any culture. Most of the time kings and nobles did have children. Even the gay ones. Unless they biologically could not. In which case, they lost their kingdom/possessions. That`s the concept you`re looking for. They didn`t give it away, it was taken. Big difference there buddy!
When I said people had a choice in homosexuality, I did not mean that all society was okay with it. If some Brittish king wanted to announce he was gay, he could have. There would be serious consequences if he did, as you mentioned, and I understand that, but he could have, because the option is always there in real life. Some cultures around the world were far more accepting. The Greeks who were major inspirations in both Roman and Byzantine Empires (who are a major part of the inspiration for the Empire factions in Bannerlord) were even publicly open about homosexuality. Even the Mongolians (who helped inspire the Khuzait) were openly accepting of homosexuality until Genghis Khan made it punishable by death solely because he wanted to rapidly increase the Mongol population to compete with China's Song Dynasty (hinting at how prolific homosexuality might have been back then to make such a law necessary). Take a homosexual studies course. You will learn a lot. (And no, it will not make you gay.)

Back to the adoption thing, In Germanic, British, and other European kingdoms, adoption was rare. Most orphans were thrown into convents or other religions institutions, and as you say, most nobility without legitimate heirs fall. Want to know one culture that heavily influences this game's factions that is an exception to this? The Byzantines! They had laws in place that allowed for adoptive heirs in high society to claim the positions of their parents. They also had laws dating back a long as Emperor Lion VI that allowed "non-traditional groups" (homosexuals, eunuchs, single women, etc.) to adopt. Want another historical example of adoption in high society? The Romans! Did you know that a handful of Roman emperors were actually adopted? Want a notable name? Caesar Augustus, who also adopted his son Tiberius. There is even a wiki article you can read on Roman adoption. Many Roman and Byzantine emperors were actually adopted to take the throne. Even ancient Arab society (inspiration for the Aserai) allowed for adoption in every level of society, although adopted children could not succeed the parents.

Hmm, two cultures (albeit related) that heavily influence Bannerlord's Empire factions happen to be more tolerant of homosexuality and allow for adoptive heirs in high society? Another (Inspiring the Khuzait) that accepted homosexuality for a time, and another (inspiring the Aserai) that welcomed adoption? I guess this means it would not be out of place for it to be in the game.

That all being said, please read note #1 at the top of the main post. I am giving ideas to allow for more marriageable freedom in the game. If the devs don't want to implement any of it, so be it. It's simply my contribution to the wide and ongoing discussion that is the marriage, relationship, and heir system in the game. I am all for constructive criticism, but I am not going to remove one of my suggestions because someone does not like it.

Edit: I have added to my homosexual marriage suggestion a campaign option to turn on the dialoge for marriage discussions with same sex people, deactivated by default, that way if someone doesn't want it, it's not there, and if they want it, they can activate it.

This. And please just let this bull**** thread die out already.
I noticed you have not posted any feedback about this thread, so I am curious about why you think it in its entirety is "bull****". Do you not like the idea of marrying who you want, controlling pregnancy better, dynamic courtship, or any of the other more popular parts according to the poll? If there are areas to improve, I welcome constructive feedback (I won't remove an idea, but I can alter them if needed). The responces (aside from yours) have been generally positive, although a handful of people don't like the idea of homosexuality being in the game, and I can understand that. Homosexuality seems to be the only controversial idea here.
 
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Very cheap of you to assign a very natural human response to a societally dangerous notion to the senseless dogmas of religion.
As for it's inclusion in the game, by your argument of free will and historicity the devs would also have to concern themselves with every scandalous courtly matter, because it did exist and because it might contribute the tiniest bit to 'characterization'. Oh nooo we already have advanced diplomacy and a belivable relation system but no homosexuality? Oh goodness my immersion! Greeks did it!
Besides, even without steam workshop you can include this feature in your game through nexus with max 30 seconds of effort. To add a whole line of additional dynamic systems BEFORE we have custom troop trees, camps, in depth diplomacy - and need I go on? - is misguided time and effort and misguidance TW cannot afford at this time.

I support a number of other suggestions though as they are very basic and effortless additions.

Edit: And also if you're advocating for same-sex marriages actually having an impact on how you are perceived, then the suggestion should not be named "Gender doesn't matter", as it clearly does by your own statement, and if you want to make it somewhat believable given the time period, you shouldn't use rainbow letters, I'm pretty sure the elite American SJW unit didn't exist back then.
 
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