Maps | Let's mix it up - Deadline: 09/07/2012

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OK since we're not inundated with submissions and they all look like potential candidates, I'll go ahead and accept all of them for now. I'll provisionally add them to the ENL module tonight and update the servers with them so they'll all be playable on ENL servers from tomorrow.

I'll also update the thread and try to kick off discussion about the maps here.

If anyone has any thoughts on the maps already, please feel free to make a start.
 

Nelosis

Veteran
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is it too late for me to submit some maps? i have some unused maps, ill quickly fine edit them if they r still being accepted"
 

ThunderonCZ

Knight
WB
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I have made one Map too. Now its finished and in phase of testing(on our Bohemian server). It looks usable. Will be any chance to submit maps in future(or now)?
 

Arch3r

Count
M&BWBNW
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captain lust said:
OK since we're not inundated with submissions and they all look like potential candidates, I'll go ahead and accept all of them for now. I'll provisionally add them to the ENL module tonight and update the servers with them so they'll all be playable on ENL servers from tomorrow.

I'll also update the thread and try to kick off discussion about the maps here.

If anyone has any thoughts on the maps already, please feel free to make a start.
So, you're still gonna do this any time soon? It would be good to be able to test the maps well before the tournament starts.
 

Jony.D.

Sergeant at Arms
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Hello, maybe I'm late but I'd like to show you one map I made.  :mrgreen:

Sarrdak Road

Screens
http://imageshack.us/g/713/2012083100001j.jpg/
1. Screen: Overview. Spawns are set near the ends of the road, 1st spawn is down, 2nd is up
2. Screen: 1st Flags position, in the middle of the road
3. Screen: 2nd Flags position, between the big rock and palms
4. Screen: 3rd Flags position, near the field and the palm with tree guard
5. Screen: Ladder passage near 1st spawn, leads to the left side of map
6. Screen: Ramp passage near 1st Flags Spawn
7. Screen: Main gate with wooden platform on its corner
8. Screen: Destroyed part of the road, near the 2nd spawn with two ramps on it. You can go to the go to the both sides of the map from there
9. Screen: Upper view

Code:
scn_multi_scene_custom_9 multi_scene_custom_9 256 none none 0.000000 0.000000 100.000000 100.000000 -100.000000 0x00000001300389800003a4ea000058340000637a0000399b
  0
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Download file: http://ulozto.cz/xWvfcr7/scn-multi-scene-custom-9-sco

Description:
It's open/mixed map. Have space for more cavarly, enough shooting positions and checkpoints for infantry. The are not any barriers on the road, so you can jump down from it any time. However, barriers are set in places which from you can jump/go behind main part of map, behind houses etc..One barrier is set at the entrance to the low, blue tent, so people can't hide there. No bugavailable places.  :grin:

I hope you like it, and maybe put it in next ENL?  :smile:
 

KissMyAxe

Master Knight
WBWF&S
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Hi,
We have been looking to adopt some of the maps in this thread for the BIT tourney. Here are our impressions with the maps so far.

Desert Storm
Couldn't download the map; the file hosting service says the file was not found (probably deleted).

Sarrdak Road
Has a few barriers that are arbitrary or don't make any sense (I'll post some example screenshots later). Lot's of "dead space" and dead-ends: areas that have only one entrance and, in my opinion, no sane caller would use. All in all the map has a very interesting idea, interesting use of props (although, not always good) and might have been an interesting map to play if it had more pathways instead of dead-ends. That said, we haven't playtested it.

(more examples coming)

Dry Valley
A very interesting idea and a very good map. I would classify it as mixed, though: lots of ways for infantry to get away from cav, yet cav should still be very effective there. A few glitches that need to be fixed, after that we'd be happy to test it in a scrim and adopt for BIT.


Verloren
This is the only map from this thread that we have playtested so far. It was interesting, and I think we haven't yet fully appreciated the range of tactical options on this map. The tower is obviously the natural center of attention on this map, and a heaven for hammers: it was played Rhodoks against Nords (8 rounds with a faction/spawn swap in the middle) and Nords got beaten 3-1 in both cases. Probably, the first 3 or 2 rounds of the first half were marked by both sides charging at the tower. Now, here it should be noted that the top spawn (which, quite conveniently, was where Rhodoks spawned) is just a tad closer to the tower than the bottom so the top team could always make it to the tower first and have a few seconds before the other team arrived there. Which was enough for hammers to set up at the doorway and literally crush the opposition. And I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing as it forces the bottom team to explore other avenues to contest the tower indirectly: for example the tunnels really do offer a nice avenue for flanking -- however due to tight space hammers dominate the tunnels as well. Another option was to take the alley and try to take shots at those crossbows on top of the tower -- which didn't really work, but I still think it's might be a viable strategy. Also, to balance out the advantage of the tower being very easy to hold, make sure that none of the MoTF flags are visible from it so that ranged units have a reason to leave their safe cover.
The only thing I'm still wondering about is why haven't you opened up the alley on the top? Seems like a natural thing to do.


From a technical standpoint the only serious problem we have found was the barrier on the side of the tower. There's a platform behind it that looks like it could have been accessible, and several players (including me) have tried jumping there during a scrim. Rather than use the barrier, I suggest you put some kind of a building there which would serve as a clear indication that the area on the side of the tower is inaccessible. There were a few places where I would have expected a barrier (see screenshots below), especially seeing how you have barrierred off some props that I wouldn't have deemed problematic otherwise.
Overall, people liked the fresh ideas in the map even though Rhodoks are clearly OP on this map and the top spawn has advantage. If you find some ways to address those concerns without ruining the fun and the need for at least one of the teams to explore avenues other than fighting for the tower, it would be great. If not, we might take it anyway (assuming something is done to make those pesky barriers be more visible).

Not sure if you wanted that barrel accessible -- comes down to your intention. That said, there are a lot of props nearby that are barrierred off
It looked like the highlighted green area could potentially be accessible and it was a surprise for me that it wasn't. I'd put a high building there so there's a wall serving as a clear indication.

Hope this is helpful. I know I haven't posted any suggestions for Sarrdak road, but I'll do so if I have time. And thanks for your work.
 

Lord Rich

Grandmaster Knight
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KissMyAxe said:
Dry Valley
A very interesting idea and a very good map. I would classify it as mixed, though: lots of ways for infantry to get away from cav, yet cav should still be very effective there. A few glitches that need to be fixed, after that we'd be happy to test it in a scrim and adopt for BIT.

Will fix the first one, is the second really an issue? Its a little silly having a horse on a roof but it at least means the horseman can get up to any rangers there (and provides for entertaining jumps ^^).

KissMyAxe said:
Verloren
This is the only map from this thread that we have playtested so far. It was interesting, and I think we haven't yet fully appreciated the range of tactical options on this map. The tower is obviously the natural center of attention on this map, and a heaven for hammers: it was played Rhodoks against Nords (8 rounds with a faction/spawn swap in the middle) and Nords got beaten 3-1 in both cases. Probably, the first 3 or 2 rounds of the first half were marked by both sides charging at the tower. Now, here it should be noted that the top spawn (which, quite conveniently, was where Rhodoks spawned) is just a tad closer to the tower than the bottom so the top team could always make it to the tower first and have a few seconds before the other team arrived there. Which was enough for hammers to set up at the doorway and literally crush the opposition. And I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing as it forces the bottom team to explore other avenues to contest the tower indirectly: for example the tunnels really do offer a nice avenue for flanking -- however due to tight space hammers dominate the tunnels as well. Another option was to take the alley and try to take shots at those crossbows on top of the tower -- which didn't really work, but I still think it's might be a viable strategy. Also, to balance out the advantage of the tower being very easy to hold, make sure that none of the MoTF flags are visible from it so that ranged units have a reason to leave their safe cover.
The tower is a position that gives control of the centre of the map somewhat but its not that useful for flags, it only has a partial view of one flag and the area behind another flag. As for the timings, I deliberately made it so the top team was a slight bit faster, however they shouldn't have time to set up and defend the door if the other team is quick. I did that because the staircase gives the lower team an advantage since its at their side of the room.

Hammers tend to be useful on any map like this, port assault, village etc... So not really much I can do about that. The tower really shouldn't give a team much help on the flag though, its only one firing position and doesn't have very wide or clear views of any flags. So you only really have to engage people there if you want to. I guess I could add some additional boards or objects to obscure the flag areas though if you think its really a problem.

KissMyAxe said:
From a technical standpoint the only problem we have found so far were the barriers ("invisible walls") that were placed with good reason, but there was little to know visual indication that they were there. So quite a few players were negatively surprised by them and weren't happy. My suggestion is to either use walls to indicate a space you don't want the players to go, or at the very least put some lesser props (spikes, grilles, barrels, whatever) to serve as a plausible indication that the area is impassable. I'll post some screenshots later. Also I haven't really tested the maps for glitches, and I might update my review if I find anything.
Overall, people liked the fresh ideas in the map even though Rhodoks are clearly OP on this map and the top spawn has advantage. If you find some ways to address those concerns without ruining the fun and the need for at least one of the teams to explore avenues other than fighting for the tower, it would be great. If not, we might take it anyway (assuming something is done to make those pesky barriers be more visible).
Not sure what you are referring to for the invisible barriers, all the streets that are just there as background have clear obstacles in front of them. I can't think of any other areas which stop you so I guess I will see what you mean in the screenshots.
 

KissMyAxe

Master Knight
WBWF&S
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I've updated my previous post with some pictures and [hopefully] clearer comments.

Lord Rich said:
Will fix the first one,
Another fix would be to lift the towers a bit so that the doorways are higher.\
Lord Rich said:
is the second really an issue? Its a little silly having a horse on a roof but it at least means the horseman can get up to any rangers there (and provides for entertaining jumps ^^).
Well, it sort of comes down to your intention and how realistic do you want the map to be. Yes, I know, I know the game is not realistic etc. But seeing how much care you have given to ensure realism (ai-walling off a steep cliff so that infantry can get up, but horses can't is the first thing that springs to mind), I would expect that you agree that no straw roof could hold a horse (or a heavily armored man, for that matter). Or that a horse can walz up a pretty narrow wall: although those beasts in Warband can't cease to amaze me with the grace and docility :roll:
Lord Rich said:
The tower is a position that gives control of the centre of the map somewhat but its not that useful for flags, it only has a partial view of one flag and the area behind another flag.
Actually, it has a clear view of two of the flags; archers and crossbows are able to take shots at both of the flags. I'd suggest moving at least one of the flags out of the direct visibility of the tower.
Lord Rich said:
As for the timings, I deliberately made it so the top team was a slight bit faster, however they shouldn't have time to set up and defend the door if the other team is quick. I did that because the staircase gives the lower team an advantage since its at their side of the room.
I'm not sure I get your argument: going to the tower via the tunnels is even slower, so the lower team never has the chance to contest the tower early in the game. From what I've seen, the best strategy they have is to take the alleys and wait for the master or try to bait the other team out of the tower.
Lord Rich said:
I guess I could add some additional boards or objects to obscure the flag areas though if you think its really a problem.
No, please, don't obscure the view any more. Just move one or both (67 and 6:cool: of the flags a bit so that they are behind buildings and not visible from the tower, and it should be fine.
Lord Rich said:
Not sure what you are referring to for the invisible barriers, all the streets that are just there as background have clear obstacles in front of them. I can't think of any other areas which stop you so I guess I will see what you mean in the screenshots.
Yeah, sorry about that: it wasn't helpful at all. I've just updated the previous post with concrete pointers and examples.

To sum up, I think the maps are great. A little work, and we'd be very happy to have them it BIT. I hope you don't feel I'm giving you **** with the "minor" things like barriers and "headless rider" glitches: I'm doing a thorough testing because I see a huge potential and I see how much attention you have given to little details in both maps. Once again, thanks for making the maps.
 

Lord Rich

Grandmaster Knight
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KissMyAxe said:
I've updated my previous post with some pictures and [hopefully] clearer comments.

Lord Rich said:
Will fix the first one,
Another fix would be to lift the towers a bit so that the doorways are higher.\
Lord Rich said:
is the second really an issue? Its a little silly having a horse on a roof but it at least means the horseman can get up to any rangers there (and provides for entertaining jumps ^^).
Well, it sort of comes down to your intention and how realistic do you want the map to be. Yes, I know, I know the game is not realistic etc. But seeing how much care you have given to ensure realism (ai-walling off a steep cliff so that infantry can get up, but horses can't is the first thing that springs to mind), I would expect that you agree that no straw roof could hold a horse (or a heavily armored man, for that matter). Or that a horse can walz up a pretty narrow wall: although those beasts in Warband can't cease to amaze me with the grace and docility :roll:
Couldn't care less about realism to be honest, I primarily put the AI barriers on the hill to account for the bug which lets you go up steep hills quickly backwards on horses. Gameplay is more important which is why I agree somewhat with the horses going in the tower, the fact that they're headless is irrelevant, that happens on native maps too. However it does mean the riders view gets badly occluded in an area which is a very tight space where they may run into an opponent, which is bad for gameplay.

Also the door can't be lifted higher without resizing the whole tower to silly proportions since the floor is already just below the sand. The roof additionally provides a third crossfire position on the upper floor of the tower so is critical for attacking it to ensure it doesn't act as a stronghold.

KissMyAxe said:
Lord Rich said:
The tower is a position that gives control of the centre of the map somewhat but its not that useful for flags, it only has a partial view of one flag and the area behind another flag.
Actually, it has a clear view of two of the flags; archers and crossbows are able to take shots at both of the flags. I'd suggest moving at least one of the flags out of the direct visibility of the tower.
Going to post some screenshots later of what I mean but I stand by what I said before. The value of the tower as a firing position on the flags is simply a lot lower than any of the other firing positions available. The distance is greater and the field of view is very small. The thing is that fights for flags are rarely played out with one team just running on the flag now, or at least if one team does do that they're going to get heavily crossfired and lose. Its the area surrounding the flag where most of the fighting happens so having a ranger sit in the tower might get you the odd potshot, but it is nowhere near as effective as having a ranger in any of the other numerous firing positions surrounding those flags.

If I move the flag anywhere its going to move towards or away from the other firing positions which damages the balance of them. Look at Sandi'boush, the central flag is so interesting to play for because it has many surrounding flag positions which are capturable which give roughly equal firing capability for the flag, so controlling enough of these lets you win. This often makes for interesting flag engagements where teams will first fight for these positions before even thinking of the flag.

KissMyAxe said:
Lord Rich said:
As for the timings, I deliberately made it so the top team was a slight bit faster, however they shouldn't have time to set up and defend the door if the other team is quick. I did that because the staircase gives the lower team an advantage since its at their side of the room.
I'm not sure I get your argument: going to the tower via the tunnels is even slower, so the lower team never has the chance to contest the tower early in the game. From what I've seen, the best strategy they have is to take the alleys and wait for the master or try to bait the other team out of the tower.
I meant using the direct route, the attackers can get to the door of the tower as the defenders are half way across the room. The attackers however can get up on top of the stairs (the wooden ones leading to the top floor) quicker which gives them a pretty powerful advantage for any fights inside there, which is why the defenders get there slightly earlier to make up for that. Controlling the stairs also allows you to drop players down behind your opponent or hit them from above if the defenders are standing outside the door.

Also if you are going to the tower in a rush that generally means few or no swaps at spawn. Don't know how much swaps are used in NA since you have had 1500 gold for a long time, but in EU they can be pretty big force multipliers to get round the 1000 gold limit and to create strong equipment combinations. Rushing the tower sacrifices this a bit so there is that reason to not do it too.

I've only played a couple of small training scrims on it with 5v5 or 6v6, but we found the attackers tended to go for the tower more while the defenders can hold back with a reasonable area. Both teams then usually tried to raid the other using the tunnels while the alleys got used for cavalry to move behind the opponent more.

Even if you take the tower it has 3 entrances which can be used to create crossfires inside.

KissMyAxe said:
This will make the map too large (Its already quite big as a closed map. I originally intended to have that alley there until I realised how large it would be) it would also make defence of the upper area untenable since it can already be difficult to track where all your opponents are now. I don't want defence to be the only strategy used by the defending team but I think it should be a viable one. There are already 4 routes across the map from the attackers to the defenders spawns and 3 of them allow cavalry too.

KissMyAxe said:
Not sure if you wanted that barrel accessible -- comes down to your intention. That said, there are a lot of props nearby that are barrierred off
It looked like the highlighted green area could potentially be accessible and it was a surprise for me that it wasn't. I'd put a high building there so there's a wall serving as a clear indication.

Hope this is helpful. I know I haven't posted any suggestions for Sarrdak road, but I'll do so if I have time. And thanks for your work.
Can't fix the headless horseman thing without blocking it off, that's going to be more annoying than having the bug so it will have to stay.

For the barriers, I can add to them I guess, can't see how its going to help though, most people will simply learn after one try that its a barrier and then not attempt to get round it anymore.

The barrels fine, I only added barriers on objects that are either glitchy and get you stuck, or on objects that you can't attack people on so would be frustrating positions for rangers to get into.

Didn't know horses could get on the roof, will fix that.

The wall area is fine yes, once again you can be attacked there easily, so it only makes the tower have more interesting play without being frustrating.

I can't add a really big building since I would have to raise it so high above the tunnels which would mean scaling it vertically to a silly degree. The swadian building props all have deep foundation bits on them which intersect the tunnels. A wall is the best option here which I can raise I guess but once again its a pretty clear barrier and players learn you can't get on it very quickly. There are tons of areas like this on native maps and I don't think its fair to hold me to different standards than the majority of the maps we play on.
 

KissMyAxe

Master Knight
WBWF&S
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Lord Rich said:
Couldn't care less about realism to be honest, I primarily put the AI barriers on the hill to account for the bug which lets you go up steep hills quickly backwards on horses. Gameplay is more important which is why I agree somewhat with the horses going in the tower, the fact that they're headless is irrelevant, that happens on native maps too. However it does mean the riders view gets badly occluded in an area which is a very tight space where they may run into an opponent, which is bad for gameplay.
Okay, fair point. If the map gets good reviews at the playtest, I'm willing to overlook the almighty straw roof. Could you, please, send me the .sco with tower entrances fixed as soon as possible?
Lord Rich said:
Going to post some screenshots later of what I mean but I stand by what I said before. The value of the tower as a firing position on the flags is simply a lot lower than any of the other firing positions available. The distance is greater and the field of view is very small. The thing is that fights for flags are rarely played out with one team just running on the flag now, or at least if one team does do that they're going to get heavily crossfired and lose. Its the area surrounding the flag where most of the fighting happens so having a ranger sit in the tower might get you the odd potshot, but it is nowhere near as effective as having a ranger in any of the other numerous firing positions surrounding those flags.

If I move the flag anywhere its going to move towards or away from the other firing positions which damages the balance of them. Look at Sandi'boush, the central flag is so interesting to play for because it has many surrounding flag positions which are capturable which give roughly equal firing capability for the flag, so controlling enough of these lets you win. This often makes for interesting flag engagements where teams will first fight for these positions before even thinking of the flag.
Okay. I was relaying the testers comments at that point. We are going to hold another test after the other issues are fixed. If holding the tower is deemed essential to win the map *and* the top spawn has a clear advantage in capturing the tower, we'll have to pass on the map.

Lord Rich said:
I meant using the direct route, the attackers can get to the door of the tower as the defenders are half way across the room. The attackers however can get up on top of the stairs (the wooden ones leading to the top floor) quicker which gives them a pretty powerful advantage for any fights inside there, which is why the defenders get there slightly earlier to make up for that.
Oh did you mean these stairs (on the left)?
Lord Rich said:
Controlling the stairs also allows you to drop players down behind your opponent or hit them from above if the defenders are standing outside the door.
The thing is: you don't need to control the stairs: the top team just needs to set up at the doorway closest to the bottom spawn in the beginning and the can hold the gatehouse without problem. Especially, if they are rhodoks.
Lord Rich said:
Also if you are going to the tower in a rush that generally means few or no swaps at spawn. Don't know how much swaps are used in NA since you have had 1500 gold for a long time, but in EU they can be pretty big force multipliers to get round the 1000 gold limit and to create strong equipment combinations. Rushing the tower sacrifices this a bit so there is that reason to not do it too.
We have used swaps for the last 3 tournaments/ladders. Also, we are going to use 1000 gold in the upcoming tournament.

Lord Rich said:
Even if you take the tower it has 3 entrances which can be used to create crossfires inside.
Once again, all the entrances are very narrow so it's easy to hold them if you have a hammer.

Lord Rich said:
This will make the map too large (Its already quite big as a closed map. I originally intended to have that alley there until I realised how large it would be) it would also make defence of the upper area untenable since it can already be difficult to track where all your opponents are now. I don't want defence to be the only strategy used by the defending team but I think it should be a viable one. There are already 4 routes across the map from the attackers to the defenders spawns and 3 of them allow cavalry too.
The test has shown that holding the tower the team can control the tunnels as well as potentially block the path to the flag on the top left corner. Opening up the upper alley would give the bottom team a safer way to that flag.

Lord Rich said:
For the barriers, I can add to them I guess, can't see how its going to help though, most people will simply learn after one try that its a barrier and then not attempt to get round it anymore.
I'd like for the learning curve to be less steep.
Lord Rich said:
I can't add a really big building since I would have to raise it so high above the tunnels which would mean scaling it vertically to a silly degree. The swadian building props all have deep foundation bits on them which intersect the tunnels. A wall is the best option here which I can raise I guess but once again its a pretty clear barrier and players learn you can't get on it very quickly.
Yeah, you have a small wall there already! How about raising it or resizing or putting another wall on top of that? Here's what I did.


Not saying it's ideal, but it looks good enough to me. Better than the invisible barrier.

Lord Rich said:
There are tons of areas like this on native maps and I don't think its fair to hold me to different standards than the majority of the maps we play on.
I really don't want to have that discussion both because I don't have time for it, but also because I think it's counterproductive. Off the top of my head I can't remember any Native or ENL map that had invisible barriers that block off spots that could be thought as accessible by a reasonable player.

As for the standards: I don't like doing it, but here's a quote from the OP
Captain Lust said:
Although, by the same token, don't just put invisible walls in places that look like they could or should be accessible. Try to plan for these things and create your map to limit issues like this.
That said, this is not ENL we are talking about -- it's a whole different tourney. My requests are guided by both my experience and the comments of other players and mappers. I am willing to drop some of them (like the straw roof thingie), but some of them (like the invisible barriers in unexpected places) appear to be breaking the game play and should be fixed. I do think that my requests are not unreasonable. I do have to maintain high standards because I have responsibility to the community to only include high quality maps in the tournament. Hope for you understanding.
 
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