Map expansion

[graycloak]

Apologies if this has been considered before, but has any thought ever been given to expanding the map a bit?

I like the combination of features in NE a great deal (it's my favorite mod outside of total conversions like Brytenwalda and PoP) but I often feel like the map is a bit tiny. I'm not suggesting new factions, just opening the borders out a ways and bumping the existing kingdoms up to 1.5-2x their present size.

What do you think?

 

[Ballacraine]

A nice idea.

Even populating the extremeties of the existing map would be a useful improvement. 

Balla. 

 

[Pellagus]

We did look at that when we were porting. There was going to be a hidden city out in the wilds, filled with Robber Knights, who were going to be even nastier to deal with than the merc war parties when they spawned...

 

[Lord Samuel]

We did look at that when we were porting. There was going to be a hidden city out in the wilds, filled with Robber Knights, who were going to be even nastier to deal with than the merc war parties when they spawned...

Aaah... So that's why there is a "town_23" in NE's scenes.txt file! 
Where are the Robber Knights, now?

 

[Pellagus]

They ran away.

Seriously, they were never more than an idea, something to make life for aspiring nation builders more difficult during the end game after (or possibly during ) the Dark Knights.

 

[Riddermark]

Maybe the Dark Knights can be added as a faction owning land in order to fill the vast emptyness of the map here and there. They'd need to be toned down a bit though and maybe renamed to some Geroian kingdom. Sorry I'm not really familiar with the lore there.

 

[ThunderClaw]

I investigated this for my own mod work, and essentially the problem becomes that even if you can spawn this stuff, you have no concept of what it's doing or how it's working.  Plus there's the problem of adding walkable meshes for it outside the map boundaries even though it doesn't strictly need them.

The punch line is that it's a hell of a lot of work without a whole lot of payoff unless you're really invested in using them.  Especially when there's a nation-sized area of unused map in the northeast if you want something flavorful like robber kings.

 

[Ballacraine]

I think populating the existing map with additional settlements is probably a viable option though?

Balla. 

 

[ThunderClaw]

Adding new towns and settlements, on a logical level, is extremely easy.  It takes a matter of minutes.  However, populating that logical town with interesting things and having new art assets is a lot of work and requires professional-level knowledge of graphic modeling and texturing.

 

[Ballacraine]

Sounds like a project for Sam, if he is interested. 

Balla. 

 

[graycloak]

I may be in the minority here, but I'm not sure how much 'new' town scenes are essential. I'd rather have a 2nd copy of every city/village in the game with new names and renamed npcs even if they look the same. It's great when mod teams have the time and talent to make incredible new scenes (and there are some amazing ones out there!) but I don't think it is essential to functionality.

 

[ThunderClaw]

The problem being, if everything looks the same, the functionality gets compromised on some level due to confusion.  If you have 3-4 places that look the same, mechanics get lost in the shuffle because it gets more and more difficult to remember what does what.

There's also the point of not everyone sharing that particular sentiment.  There are a lot of people, myself included, that feel if you're going to do something as flow-breaking and conspicuous as asset reuse, you might as well not have bothered.  With everything you add, you have to seriously ask yourself what value/fun factor you're giving the game with this addition.  If you reuse assets, you're give off the signal that you're padding, which isn't fun.

Obviously this doesn't apply to things that are off the map, since the player never actually sees that stuff, but I already mentioned the weirdness with that.  It's not a bad concept to keep in mind, it just has to come along with a well-formed idea where it can be valuable.

I'm really enjoying this discussion, incidentally.  Talking to people about design theory is really fun for me, and it's even cooler because Soul and I are actually professional programmers, so we can talk about this with some confidence.  I might make a thing out of these sorts of topics if we keep getting awesome questions like this.

 

[graycloak]

I can see that angle, but I suspect the difference is in what you see the towns as there for/how you use them. I'm rarely going through them on foot and exploring the scene - mostly they are supply/recruitment depots, targets and battlefields to me. It takes massive redesign of a town/castle scene to make the assault/defense play out differently anyway (and the more extreme changes often cause problems with AI/troop movement) so they tend to blur together for me. There's a difference between the ladder assaults and the tower assaults, but the ones of the same type all seem pretty much the same to me.

 

[soulmata]

I can see that angle, but I suspect the difference is in what you see the towns as there for/how you use them. I'm rarely going through them on foot and exploring the scene - mostly they are supply/recruitment depots, targets and battlefields to me. It takes massive redesign of a town/castle scene to make the assault/defense play out differently anyway (and the more extreme changes often cause problems with AI/troop movement) so they tend to blur together for me. There's a difference between the ladder assaults and the tower assaults, but the ones of the same type all seem pretty much the same to me.

This is a sentiment I agree with. There's so little variation between towns they might as well all be the same. This might be something that NE can strive to change - and make regional differences worth paying attention to.

 

[Lord Samuel]

Adding new towns and settlements, on a logical level, is extremely easy.  It takes a matter of minutes.  However, populating that logical town with interesting things and having new art assets is a lot of work and requires professional-level knowledge of graphic modeling and texturing.

Sounds like a project for Sam, if he is interested. 

Balla. 

I'd be interested, of course!... But I'm no 3D modeller.
For the moment, I tried to somewhat 'factionalize' decoration items such as the food you see in the streets, taverns and castles, like Tea for the Khergits/Sarranids, Wine and Cheese for the Rhodoks/Swadians, Garlic for the Vaegirs (who fear vampires) and Smoked Fish in Nords settlements.
And that was only occasional work, not on a 'global' level for the moment.

What I could do, too, would be to design the interior settings of 'Elite' Buildings, like the Sarranian House of Swords, or the Swadian Cathedral, etc. Units could stand there, waiting to be recruited. With dedicated dialogs (similar to the tavern mercenary ones), it would just be awesome.
I've always felt kind of frustrated not to see what those buildings looked like, after 50 days of build time: you just click on a text link, recruit your Elites one set at a time and... that's it. Kind of disappointing, isn't it?

 

[Ballacraine]

It is when you consider what stunning visuals you would come up with, my friend! 



Balla. 

 

[Pellagus]

I'd be interested, of course!... But I'm no 3D modeller.
For the moment, I tried to somewhat 'factionalize' decoration items such as the food you see in the streets, taverns and castles, like Tea for the Khergits/Sarranids, Wine and Cheese for the Rhodoks/Swadians, Garlic for the Vaegirs (who fear vampires) and Smoked Fish in Nords settlements.
And that was only occasional work, not on a 'global' level for the moment.

What I could do, too, would be to design the interior settings of 'Elite' Buildings, like the Sarranian House of Swords, or the Swadian Cathedral, etc. Units could stand there, waiting to be recruited. With dedicated dialogs (similar to the tavern mercenary ones), it would just be awesome.
I've always felt kind of frustrated not to see what those buildings looked like, after 50 days of build time: you just click on a text link, recruit your Elites one set at a time and... that's it. Kind of disappointing, isn't it?

Elite buildings would be fantastic! Let me know if you need additional models or textures!

 

[graycloak]

Not that I have the talent, but for expansion purposes there might be something to be said for having a couple of 'design an XX' contests for inclusion in the mod? I seem to recall several mods for the original M&B that had a fair bit of luck with just asking for community submitted settlements. Especially since NE is closely based on the 'main' game and not trying for a specific historical or fantasy setting with a precise graphical feel to it.

 

[ThunderClaw]

I'd very eagerly support any kind of artistic contribution, or any kind of contest to work them up.  Neither soulmata nor I have any artistic talent at all, and eye candy is definitely something that is severely lacking in M&B.