Making the Line Battle Rules.
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Kator Viridian
Master Knight
DannyT 说:Didn't see this argument coming....public line battles
Glad to not be a part of them anymore.
you'd be surprised how good they actually are, my hat is off to Rudovich for that one.
Royal_Marine_Machine
Hibiki 说:
Waterloo & Assaye - two big battle where Wellington used the Reverse slope of hills to cover his troops.
Also we crouch when we reload so the Officer knows when everyone has reloaded seeing as you can't move & reload (which is possible IRL, just hard)
Also:
"For demonstrations we did skirmishing tactics for the audience, so we trained as stated in the period manual for the British. Skirmishing according to the manual is not using cover"
Because soldiers always go by the manual, right? If there was cover near by soldiers would use it just like we do nowadays - though I will admit that even in Modern conflicts Soldiers will not move very far into cover unless ordered (though 9/10 times they will be ordered to). If you are skirmishing (Which should be a loose line not a loose mass of men) and you're fighting, and there's a tree near you, about 4 or 5 metres away, you should move to it. However, you shouldn't all run to cover unless ordered too.
Royal_Marine_Machine
sir Luca 说:
True but the soldiers themselves should follow orders, and not do much without being ordered. This is called discipline and is how we win wars.
If you want a flat map, you better remove the cannons as they will kill everything.
The hills provide cover and commanders should use it for strategicial purposes.
What some of you seem to be aiming for is just standing in a line a few meters away and keep shooting untill the other line is dead.
Now you could argue that this is the point of a line battle, however shooting is 99 percent based on LUCK, no skill involved. Except; roughly aim at the target in first person mode.
I would also love to see more teamwork, reporting your position (roughly) and asking for help.
During yesterday's linebattle on the second map, it was really hard to see who was an enemy regiment for the arty. I had to move up several meters to "spot" for the rest of the arty, and even then I was unsure at some times. Especially because there were some random people running about lonely.
Speaking of arty, we got plenty of kills because there was this one Regiment which fancied doing a sqaure formation. Obviously this doesn't work well against cannons.
We were utterly raped by cavalry and other line infantry though.
edit:
To improve teamwork, what about an overview of the map for the commander?
If a friendly regiment is within X meters of either the commander or another line that is within reach of the commander, he can see them on his "tactical overlay"
Altough prefferably with a "line of sight" check as well.
The hills provide cover and commanders should use it for strategicial purposes.
What some of you seem to be aiming for is just standing in a line a few meters away and keep shooting untill the other line is dead.
Now you could argue that this is the point of a line battle, however shooting is 99 percent based on LUCK, no skill involved. Except; roughly aim at the target in first person mode.
I would also love to see more teamwork, reporting your position (roughly) and asking for help.
During yesterday's linebattle on the second map, it was really hard to see who was an enemy regiment for the arty. I had to move up several meters to "spot" for the rest of the arty, and even then I was unsure at some times. Especially because there were some random people running about lonely.
Speaking of arty, we got plenty of kills because there was this one Regiment which fancied doing a sqaure formation. Obviously this doesn't work well against cannons.
We were utterly raped by cavalry and other line infantry though.
edit:
To improve teamwork, what about an overview of the map for the commander?
If a friendly regiment is within X meters of either the commander or another line that is within reach of the commander, he can see them on his "tactical overlay"
Altough prefferably with a "line of sight" check as well.
Refleax
Master Knight
Herbiie 说:
Obviously every ranker should follow his officer’s commands but it seems like some people fail to do so or the officer’s ability to lead is just horrible, which is rarely the case.
Take cavalry ramboing for instance, I have seen this for quite a few times now when one cavalry charges a line by himself.
Yeah, before people were *****ing about 22nd skirmishers not being in a line there was this single cav dude that charged the arty unit I was with. He kept circling us for the whole round trying to take one of us down. This pretty much prevented us from shooting anything. X minutes later, his other cav mates arrive backed up with a line regiment.
Royal_Marine_Machine
Plazek 说:
No there is no point unless you're desperate or running out of ammunition, or have an advantage in Cover (most cover is in the form of hills though).
Kator Viridian
Master Knight
We're sat behind a small hill that offers no cover to a standing man whilst croaching offers full camoflage into the terrain ... is it better to stand or crouch down ... let me guess wait no My "Mr. Bigbrains" don't work right now, I think I'm suffering a brain hemorrage from the stupidity I have ... so sorry.
This is why the beaches of omaha worked so perfectly didn't they, men running over flat ground to capture an objective ... or better yet world war 1 ... and 2 ... and the charge of the light brigade ... phyirric victories or heavy losses.
Now putting this into context, would any regiment be stupid enough to face down 3 other regiments and jsut charge outright at them at the length of 3 -4 bayonete charge distances ... now is that tactics or blindsiding suicide? Hills are the keys to victory ... if your here to just rp, play on flats or if the tactical ability of commanders actually counts for something then hills will be used.
The point your trying to make is that flatlands offer more tactical advantage than hills, or that its up to the commander to know the regiments their fighting with and use them accordingly, now this would be easy ... IF every commander knew the regiments their working with ... which they don't. Now using any kind of manouvering tactics in open fields is silly ... why? because the enemy can see exactly what your doing and therefore render it completely useless ... now whats the point in moving to reveal a weakpoint? much easier to camp and wait for the first move .... wait dosn't this sound familiar ... WWI and WWII?
You don't need that at all ... I see reigments working fine together every time in the public line battles, where rules are not always enforced due to the high levels of participants and the mixed variety that ensues ... its very fun without the realism value and very exciting to play with other leaders commanding you instead of just your own leader.
Tactical and stratigic play comes from both commander and line captain, right down to the indervidual level ... not just the regiments themselves, people play for fun, you take away the fun value and replace it with constant rule enforced rp ... then ... you'll loose the people you want to attract.
4th Hussars Smithy
Surely it's up to the commander of the team, as well as the captains of the regiments to decide where to go and what strategies to use.
I feel like this community wants to make this BG3, when, let's face it...it's completely different. BG2 was all well and good, but eventually it died out. I can't help but feel that if you place rules on:
Where you can go
When you can do it
How to move
How to shoot
Limit strategies
Limit classes to make it fair *Surely if one faction has more cavalry regiments than the other...good for them?*
That this mod will as well die, or at least...certainly the public line battles...there's simply too much rage going on.
Going back to the OP, here's what i would propose:
Infantry - Keep in a universally recognised formation *Column, Line, Square etc.* until you have less than 5 troops, at which point. Charge or join another line. **Ultimately if you go into 'skirmish' mode because your the last against a couple of enemy units, your just prolonging the game**
Cavalry - Keep together, unless it's part of your strategy, not sure i agree if cavalry HAVE to use formations, it's harder to form cavalry than infantry, and takes time...however, i find that they work better in formation....this should be something of the captains discretion.
- Skirmishers - Can use cover individually, can aim at VIP's, however, must stay together in a loose formation of the captains choice.
- Artillery - Fire cannons
I'm going to ask *Again* that this community stops *****ing about the game we have and play. If the 'elitist' attitude was dropped by a select few, i think the forums would be a much more pleasant place to be. The OP is about making rules, not flaming about crouching or maps *Please don't make maps any more bare/flat than Linebattle1*.
-From Prussian High Command,
Smithy
I feel like this community wants to make this BG3, when, let's face it...it's completely different. BG2 was all well and good, but eventually it died out. I can't help but feel that if you place rules on:
Where you can go
When you can do it
How to move
How to shoot
Limit strategies
Limit classes to make it fair *Surely if one faction has more cavalry regiments than the other...good for them?*
That this mod will as well die, or at least...certainly the public line battles...there's simply too much rage going on.
Going back to the OP, here's what i would propose:
Infantry - Keep in a universally recognised formation *Column, Line, Square etc.* until you have less than 5 troops, at which point. Charge or join another line. **Ultimately if you go into 'skirmish' mode because your the last against a couple of enemy units, your just prolonging the game**
Cavalry - Keep together, unless it's part of your strategy, not sure i agree if cavalry HAVE to use formations, it's harder to form cavalry than infantry, and takes time...however, i find that they work better in formation....this should be something of the captains discretion.
- Skirmishers - Can use cover individually, can aim at VIP's, however, must stay together in a loose formation of the captains choice.
- Artillery - Fire cannons
I'm going to ask *Again* that this community stops *****ing about the game we have and play. If the 'elitist' attitude was dropped by a select few, i think the forums would be a much more pleasant place to be. The OP is about making rules, not flaming about crouching or maps *Please don't make maps any more bare/flat than Linebattle1*.
-From Prussian High Command,
Smithy
Herbiie 说:
Or:
Want to provide a good distraction while X moves into postion Y.
Cavalry are about to charge their back.
You lost too many men to random fire already and want to take it in close while you still got a chance.
They have enemy cannon behind their line and you dont.
They have better guns than you.
They have more guns than you.
etc.
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I believe the rules I proposed about crouching were relevant during firing. If you want to hide behind a hill and not fight then sure crouch. However I feel that if you want to shoot at someone shooting then crouching behind the ridge of the hill for the reload is pretty lame. If you want to fight the enemy you should present youself to them. If we allow this sort of cover as standard then I worry this game will devolve simply to who has the best cover. I would rather see the use of cover balanced better with manouvering. If you can gain 100% cover during all time except for the few seconds it takes to order volley then manouvres will be irrelevant to whether or not you have cover. Stipulating that you are only allowed to stand when in combat in a line I think provides the best balance between these two important factors (cover and manouvres).
Can you say, "machinegun", "trench warfare" or "wrong time period"?
As for the comments you make regarding how manouvering is irrelevant in an open field battle. Well thanks for making me feel justified in my brain comment
It does not matter that the enemy can see what your doing. If he sees what your doing it just means he is watching when you cavalry tear up his flank, when one of your line troops sucessfully gains a position where he can lay down some enfillade fire, that he fell for your trap and was drawn into your artilleries kill zone etc. That an enemy sees an attack coming does not necessarily mean he will competently defend himself from it. Though of course he might, that is why this stuff is fun.
Fun games with rules:
Football
Rugby
Tennis
oh wait, all sports!
Monopoly
Scrabble
Mousetrap
oh wait, all board games!
Poker
Blackjack
Snap
oh wait, all card games!
Not to mention how every single computer game also has rules imposed by the limitations of the gameworld and the mechanics of the game. Last I checked they were still fun.
If we ever want to take these linebattles further than simple fun and make a real clan versus clan or army versus army competition we need rules. Convention only gets you so far.
Who ever said anything about rule enforced RP? IF you look at the suggestions I made in the firs tpage of this thread they were actually pretty light on content and involve nothing like that.
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Smithy is smart however crouching is relevant to this and I dislike it
4th Hussars Smithy
Smithy is smart however crouching is relevant to this and I dislike it
I find that crouching is useful for various reasons inside the Prussian Army:
1. To tell regiment officers when the troops are ready to move/shoot
2. ideal for setting up the occasional ambush
3. concealing your troops, before combat is a viable strategy i believe, used by many.... hill + crouching = hidden army.
How about a half way house, where we have it so there's no crouching when engaged? That way the commanders can use crouching to cover troops from arty fire, conceal positions and set up ambush's, without the rage about people crouching in line when shooting/reloading.
FatalJoker
Squire
4th Hussars Smithy 说:Smithy is smart however crouching is relevant to this and I dislike it
I find that crouching is useful for various reasons inside the Prussian Army:
1. To tell regiment officers when the troops are ready to move/shoot
2. ideal for setting up the occasional ambush
3. concealing your troops, before combat is a viable strategy i believe, used by many.... hill + crouching = hidden army.
How about a half way house, where we have it so there's no crouching when engaged? That way the commanders can use crouching to cover troops from arty fire, conceal positions and set up ambush's, without the rage about people crouching in line when shooting/reloading.
i agree, you shouldn't be allowed to crouch when you are engaged -> unless you're skirmishers
4th Hussars Smithy
King of Scotland 说:
This might surprise you but.
Agreed
Royal_Marine_Machine
Plazek 说:
So you agree there's no point unless you're desperate...
Btw sacrificing a unit as a distraction is an incredibly desperate move oh and BTW
Falling back is usually a better option than charging, if they have cannon fall back into cover (like CROUCHING behind a HILL) if they have more guns than you then fall back, all muskets are the same so not sure where you're deciding some guns are better than others, if cavalry are about to charge you then you're desperate if they're about to charge them then let the Cav deal with them you are then free to do other stuff, it's the cav's problem now. If you're losing alot of men then you can either fall back or if there's no point in continuing i.e you're desperate you can attack.
Oh noes! This game might actually start being accurate! :'( Terrain is the SINGLE most important part of an Army, what ground you are standing on, if an area is completely flat there won't be a battle there because neither side would be able to get the advantage - choosing where to fight is a big part of commanding, most commanders like to choose places where there is lots of high ground that dominates the surrounding area.
If a really bad unit is in amazing cover it should deal heavy casualties to an elite unit in the open - that elite unit however obviously isn't so Elite if they're getting caught in the open. It's like the saying "If you are up against an enemy force inside a heavy fortified position, endeavour to be the one inside.".
If this mod became more about what ground you are standing on and moving around to get in a better position it would be much better.
Kator Viridian
Master Knight
MaHuD 说:
okay bayonete distance we worked out is line 3 in the training map, where you can charge after one volley and still make it to the static opponent before they get a second volley off.
Now we're talking position 12, long range shooting of a line regiment where shots still hit and its viable to get 2-3 reloads in before the opponent gets to you.
of course varying from regiment to regiment depends on the accuracy of each group and who the line is charging, but I would guess that out of a line of 24 only 5-10 would make it to the opponents before getting bundled in melee and wiped out with little casulaties. Not a solid manouver to do.
Considering that any captain would want their men out of harms way yet in enough way to cause harm hills would be the only option, it provides cover and tactical ability to manouver.
Why? we've been using this for near ... well the start really, hills provide great cover and people still melee charge, get into combat and have fun more than ever.
But your taking a part of that away already? by simply saying crouching to reload is not allowed without any decent reason or cause other than "I don't like it", so in your reigment too everyone stands whilst reloading?
