Making Battles Epic In The Final Release Suggestions

Reiksmarshal

Sergeant Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
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0
While having a blast playing EA I can’t help but see all the opportunities that could make battles epic and more immersive in the final product. Right now while fun they are pretty plain while features are in the works to be implemented, I’m not sure what the development road map will look like but I hope these are some of the things the devs will take into consideration for the final product that will make battles indeed more epic! This thread will go into battles as a whole from the trappings of war to the tactics that are used by Ai generals. That said I hope this thread is enjoyable and sparks the imagination of those who read it.

De re militari (Concerning Military Matters)

For those who played Warband might remember a book that was in the game called De Re Militari that gave your character +1 Tactics if you read it. This text historically covered everything from training to tactics and was used as a military guide even after gunpowered started to appear on the battlefield. There are things in those texts that give us insight to battle formations that could be used as inspiration for Bannerlord of how troops behave on the battlefield to help deliver a more believable experience.

Battle Formations And Ai Tactics

Well-ordered armies where usually divided into 3 guards the vanguard, middle, and rear. The way this could translate to a game feature is the vanguard would be the skirmishers that would advance head of the middle which would be the main battle line and the rear would be your cavalry that would be used as a flanking force or to ward off flank attacks.

The vanguard would open the battle by advancing ahead of the main battle line to skirmish and to neutralize enemy skirmishers and archers first. They should always try to attack skirmishers first as they are their most immediate threat then look for targets of opportunity after like non shielded units. They should also not stray too far away from the protection of the battle line in case the cavalry is sent after them so they can retreat behind them if needed.

The middle would be your main battle line of infantry that would use formations like shield wall and be the anchor for most armies. Their job would be to give the skirmishers refuge from cavalry attacks and to engage the enemy infantry battle line.

The rear guard or reserve would be the cavalry force with the main role of warding off flankers from the middle battle line and then flank themselves once the flankers are neutralized.

If the Ai used those formations in those roles I believe you would have a more believable Ai opponent that uses rudimentary tactics rather than just charging forward like brainless bots.

Saving Battle Formations

One feature that Viking Conquest had was you could set your army up and you could save their positions and formation and in the next battle they would deploy in the formation you saved. This would be an excellent feature for Bannerlord and is a huge quality of life improvement as setting up your formations can be tedious and it is always a rat race of trying to set your army up before the attacking army gets there.

Tactics & Leadership Perks

It would be nice if these perks were a little more useful on the battlefield as well so that skilled Ai generals on the battlefield are a force to be reckoned with like Garios Comnos from the Western Empire for example. This guys should be a beast on the battle map and somebody you don’t want to fight unless you are a beast yourself that is. The Ai is too much of a push over atm for various reasons and this certainly part of the problem. Here are some thoughts on current perks:

Phalanx – +50% infantry damage vs. cavalry in simulations; party leader effect

Ambush Specialist – +60% archer damage in simulation battles when in forests; party leader effect


These should apply to the battlefield as well, why should they be less effective when fighting a battle? Tactic perks should apply to both simulations and battles that are fought as this plays a big part in building a cohesive force of disciplined hardened veterans and gives more of a sense of achievement. As for leadership perks it would be nice if there was a rally perk that you can activate if you start to see your infantry crumble that will buy you more time or an inspiration perk that boost morale if you are near your troops. These are the kind of perks that will be useful and fun to invest as they would your battle line a little more durable in battle.

Infantry Vs Infantry

Currently infantry vs infantry formations seem to be really off because of collision or lack of weapon collision and are over in seconds. It would be nice if these clashes became more of a slug fest and lasted long so that you have time to maneuver flanking forces. If the infantry forces are about equal in skill and equipment it should almost stall out where there is a no man’s land that starts to form in between the battles lines. This is even more apparent when there are lots of spears in the formations. Wolin battles are probably the closes thing we have to real battles, but you can see the no man’s land form between the battle lines and this is where the reach weapons like spears and Dane axes come into prominence and dominant the no man’s land.

Wolin Melee Example


Spear & Polearm Formations

Spear and polearm formations should be a force to reckon with vs other infantry specially trained units with a mix of long spears and polearms. I firmly believe there should be a spearwall formation that emphasizes and uses spears to their full potential. What made them so effective was they could fight in multiple ranks. For game purpose I would at least try to get 2 ranks fighting where the second rank uses its spear in an overhand attack so that they can strike over the first rank. When units are in this formation I would place polearms in the front as a priority so that they can do vertical strikes and spears in the second rank. This would be pretty deadly as you would have glaives and voulge coming down on your head and spears from the second rank trying to stab you. Spears should have some form of collision to create an obstacle that is hard to get around. You simply can’t just charge through a forest of spears.

Trappings Of War

Trappings of war are the things armies bring to battle like banners, drums, horns, and warpipes that truly add to immersion and give flavor to the different cultures. Armies should have cultural based musician embedded in the armies that use their cultural instrument as orders are given on the battlefield. Nothing is cooler than giving the order to advance and hearing drums and war horns signal to the men to move out. Banners have been confirmed, but they should have some significance like being able to capture them in battle as a war trophy like in Viking Conquest.

Marching In Formations

During siege battle troops march in formation and it looks really cool, it would be nice that when troops are in shieldwall or similar formations they march as well in regular battles. First time I saw this in a siege battle my jaw dropped and it is something that has to come over to regular battles.

Warhorn And Marching Cinematic


Ai Companions and Bodyguards

One thing that has seemed a little off is Ai faction leaders don’t have companions. I think it would be amazing if the faction leader of each faction had a core of elite bodyguard and a few high level named champions that try to protect them in battle and follow them around. Maybe like 4-5 elite bodyguard and 1-2 named companions that are renowned warriors and that can wreck hovoc on the battlefield. These would be some of the best fighters in the game and could fight challenges on behalf of their lord as maybe a pre-battle option to gain a morale boost if you win. They could also appear in tournaments if they are in the city with their lord. Imagine trying to cut your way to the enemy King and as you get close this massive champion blocks your path and defends his king to the death back be a few elite king’s guard.

Cavalry Charges

Cavalry charges are more about timing than anything and should be devastating if used correctly. For example charging the flank or rear of an enemy battle line should cause some serious morale issue with the lesser trained troops. In addition damage from horse it pretty weak as well, my warhorse with heavy armor causes very little damage like 7 or something when I ran troops over.

The King Is Dead

When the lord or King of an army goes down it should be a battlefield event where the player gets a message and maybe a sound plays. This should also affect the enemy army’s morale as well where they start to lose confidence. The same should happen to the player’s army’s morale as well if they go down during a battle.

Volley Fire Command

The option to command long range volley fire with certain archer troops, these could be used to soften up the attacking forces as they approach. Maybe it could be an option that unlocks as the tactics skill increases and maybe could be a bit more effective then fire at will.

Bridge Battles

True bridge battles should be more useful choke points on the map that can be used as a strategic location where a smaller force can hold off a much larger army.



Shield Taunting And Cheering

It would be nice to be able to get your troops in the shield wall formation to bang on their shields to taunt the enemy, maybe this could have a temporary negative effect on morale. Cheering would be the counter to this that could boost morale and inspire the troops before they charge in. These could even be part of the leadership perk tree and unlock at some point, but it is the little things like this that add up and make battles awesome and immersive.

 
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Ishtarin

Regular
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0
Infantry vs infantry is arguably the worst part of the game's combat. Spearmen bring out their swords and start swinging away without a single concern for their lives, it's unrealistic and boring as tactics cannot develop when the battle ends within 10 seconds of contact.
 

Reiksmarshal

Sergeant Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
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0
Infantry vs infantry is arguably the worst part of the game's combat. Spearmen bring out their swords and start swinging away without a single concern for their lives, it's unrealistic and boring as tactics cannot develop when the battle ends within 10 seconds of contact.
I agree and using horse archers/archers is too easy. I'm sure this will get addressed once the devs get around to this aspect of the game. Currently I just have my horse archers charge and come back about 10-15 minutes later to a cheese win where I lose about 5-7 guys.

All I do is F1/F3 or sometimes F6.
That is about all you can do since there really isn't any features/balancing added to battles yet.
 

MostBlunted

Regular
Best answers
0
That is about all you can do since there really isn't any features/balancing added to battles yet.
No no, I´m a master tactican :wink:

But to be fair, in Warband I just used my Swadian Knights and did the same. Hoped Bannerlord would improve this...
 

King Yngvar

Squire
WBVC
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0
I agree and using horse archers/archers is too easy. I'm sure this will get addressed once the devs get around to this aspect of the game. Currently I just have my horse archers charge and come back about 10-15 minutes later to a cheese win where I lose about 5-7 guys.



That is about all you can do since there really isn't any features/balancing added to battles yet.
Not so sure this will be addressed by the devs. I'm more hopeful about modders fixing this issues. For now I've just used the health increase mod and modified armor values, at least it makes the battles last a bit longer.
 

Flit

Recruit
Best answers
0
Ambush Specialist – +60% archer damage in simulation battles when in forests; party leader effect
I don't like this idea. There are very few instances where a formation of archers have an advantage in forests. Volleys of ranged arrows are not more effective in forests, they are less effective. This is very basically because the archer cannot see the target until it is on top of them and the missiles get distorted/stuck/slowed in the foliage prior to that moment.

Forests could well have some dynamic effects however. Imagine the following effects:

- light foot archers and light foot infantry have a speed movement advantage in forests
- mounted horse and heavy foot infantry have a large speed movement penalty in forests
- AI CANNOT SEE THROUGH THE FOLIAGE AND SHOOT MISSILES AS IF THE TREES ARE NOT THERE

Yes, I'm shouting the last one. Not specifically at you OP, but at all game designers. You see AI archers already have an advantage in that they can see through trees, fog, snow storms and mist. Making archers more powerful in forests is the last thing i want to see.
 

dannazgu

Recruit
Best answers
0
While having a blast playing EA I can’t help but see all the opportunities that could make battles epic and more immersive in the final product. Right now while fun they are pretty plain while features are in the works to be implemented, I’m not sure what the development road map will look like but I hope these are some of the things the devs will take into consideration for the final product that will make battles indeed more epic! This thread will go into battles as a whole from the trappings of war to the tactics that are used by Ai generals. That said I hope this thread is enjoyable and sparks the imagination of those who read it.

De re militari (Concerning Military Matters)

For those who played Warband might remember a book that was in the game called De Re Militari that gave your character +1 Tactics if you read it. This text historically covered everything from training to tactics and was used as a military guide even after gunpowered started to appear on the battlefield. There are things in those texts that give us insight to battle formations that could be used as inspiration for Bannerlord of how troops behave on the battlefield to help deliver a more believable experience.

Battle Formations And Ai Tactics

Well-ordered armies where usually divided into 3 guards the vanguard, middle, and rear. The way this could translate to a game feature is the vanguard would be the skirmishers that would advance head of the middle which would be the main battle line and the rear would be your cavalry that would be used as a flanking force or to ward off flank attacks.

The vanguard would open the battle by advancing ahead of the main battle line to skirmish and to neutralize enemy skirmishers and archers first. They should always try to attack skirmishers first as they are their most immediate threat then look for targets of opportunity after like non shielded units. They should also not stray too far away from the protection of the battle line in case the cavalry is sent after them so they can retreat behind them if needed.

The middle would be your main battle line of infantry that would use formations like shield wall and be the anchor for most armies. Their job would be to give the skirmishers refuge from cavalry attacks and to engage the enemy infantry battle line.

The rear guard or reserve would be the cavalry force with the main role of warding off flankers from the middle battle line and then flank themselves once the flankers are neutralized.

If the Ai used those formations in those roles I believe you would have a more believable Ai opponent that uses rudimentary tactics rather than just charging forward like brainless bots.

Saving Battle Formations

One feature that Viking Conquest had was you could set your army up and you could save their positions and formation and in the next battle they would deploy in the formation you saved. This would be an excellent feature for Bannerlord and is a huge quality of life improvement as setting up your formations can be tedious and it is always a rat race of trying to set your army up before the attacking army gets there.

Tactics & Leadership Perks

It would be nice if these perks were a little more useful on the battlefield as well so that skilled Ai generals on the battlefield are a force to be reckoned with like Garios Comnos from the Western Empire for example. This guys should be a beast on the battle map and somebody you don’t want to fight unless you are a beast yourself that is. The Ai is too much of a push over atm for various reasons and this certainly part of the problem. Here are some thoughts on current perks:

Phalanx – +50% infantry damage vs. cavalry in simulations; party leader effect

Ambush Specialist – +60% archer damage in simulation battles when in forests; party leader effect


These should apply to the battlefield as well, why should they be less effective when fighting a battle? Tactic perks should apply to both simulations and battles that are fought as this plays a big part in building a cohesive force of disciplined hardened veterans and gives more of a sense of achievement. As for leadership perks it would be nice if there was a rally perk that you can activate if you start to see your infantry crumble that will buy you more time or an inspiration perk that boost morale if you are near your troops. These are the kind of perks that will be useful and fun to invest as they would your battle line a little more durable in battle.

Infantry Vs Infantry

Currently infantry vs infantry formations seem to be really off because of collision or lack of weapon collision and are over in seconds. It would be nice if these clashes became more of a slug fest and lasted long so that you have time to maneuver flanking forces. If the infantry forces are about equal in skill and equipment it should almost stall out where there is a no man’s land that starts to form in between the battles lines. This is even more apparent when there are lots of spears in the formations. Wolin battles are probably the closes thing we have to real battles, but you can see the no man’s land form between the battle lines and this is where the reach weapons like spears and Dane axes come into prominence and dominant the no man’s land.

Wolin Melee Example


Spear & Polearm Formations

Spear and polearm formations should be a force to reckon with vs other infantry specially trained units with a mix of long spears and polearms. I firmly believe there should be a spearwall formation that emphasizes and uses spears to their full potential. What made them so effective was they could fight in multiple ranks. For game purpose I would at least try to get 2 ranks fighting where the second rank uses its spear in an overhand attack so that they can strike over the first rank. When units are in this formation I would place polearms in the front as a priority so that they can do vertical strikes and spears in the second rank. This would be pretty deadly as you would have glaives and voulge coming down on your head and spears from the second rank trying to stab you. Spears should have some form of collision to create an obstacle that is hard to get around. You simply can’t just charge through a forest of spears.

Trappings Of War

Trappings of war are the things armies bring to battle like banners, drums, horns, and warpipes that truly add to immersion and give flavor to the different cultures. Armies should have cultural based musician embedded in the armies that use their cultural instrument as orders are given on the battlefield. Nothing is cooler than giving the order to advance and hearing drums and war horns signal to the men to move out. Banners have been confirmed, but they should have some significance like being able to capture them in battle as a war trophy like in Viking Conquest.

Marching In Formations

During siege battle troops march in formation and it looks really cool, it would be nice that when troops are in shieldwall or similar formations they march as well in regular battles. First time I saw this in a siege battle my jaw dropped and it is something that has to come over to regular battles.

Warhorn And Marching Cinematic


Ai Companions and Bodyguards

One thing that has seemed a little off is Ai faction leaders don’t have companions. I think it would be amazing if the faction leader of each faction had a core of elite bodyguard and a few high level named champions that try to protect them in battle and follow them around. Maybe like 4-5 elite bodyguard and 1-2 named companions that are renowned warriors and that can wreck hovoc on the battlefield. These would be some of the best fighters in the game and could fight challenges on behalf of their lord as maybe a pre-battle option to gain a morale boost if you win. They could also appear in tournaments if they are in the city with their lord. Imagine trying to cut your way to the enemy King and as you get close this massive champion blocks your path and defends his king to the death back be a few elite king’s guard.

Cavalry Charges

Cavalry charges are more about timing than anything and should be devastating if used correctly. For example charging the flank or rear of an enemy battle line should cause some serious morale issue with the lesser trained troops. In addition damage from horse it pretty weak as well, my warhorse with heavy armor causes very little damage like 7 or something when I ran troops over.

The King Is Dead

When the lord or King of an army goes down it should be a battlefield event where the player gets a message and maybe a sound plays. This should also affect the enemy army’s morale as well where they start to lose confidence. The same should happen to the player’s army’s morale as well if they go down during a battle.

Volley Fire Command

The option to command long range volley fire with certain archer troops, these could be used to soften up the attacking forces as they approach. Maybe it could be an option that unlocks as the tactics skill increases and maybe could be a bit more effective then fire at will.

Bridge Battles

True bridge battles should be more useful choke points on the map that can be used as a strategic location where a smaller force can hold off a much larger army.

Are you using a mod? The 2.000 battle was awesome
 

Svangr

Sergeant
Best answers
0
I agree with just about all of this. Well written. I hope they see this.

What do you think of the way Total War battles play out? Are they historically accurate? Regardless, I think they would be an improvement to what we have now.
 

Kipsta

Sergeant at Arms
WB
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0
Man Viking Conquest ain't perfect, but many of the battle aspects look better than Bannerlord currently. 😂
 

Reiksmarshal

Sergeant Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
Best answers
0
I agree with just about all of this. Well written. I hope they see this.

What do you think of the way Total War battles play out? Are they historically accurate? Regardless, I think they would be an improvement to what we have now.
I have played tones of Total War games and they do some stuff pretty well, I think TW could learn something from the way pikes are handled in that game for sure. The no man's land is much clearly defined and the pikes are an obstacle to get past. In Bannerlord troops fight belly button to belly button which is not very realistic.

Total War pikes in action

There has been a guy who is experimenting with a mod that address the problem but this is something that should be in the base game.
 

Zydrate

Banned
WBNW
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0
Also bigger field battle scenes. All these features would be reduntant with the current size of battle scenes.
 

Gambles

Veteran
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
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0
You have a lot of really good ideas here and its great feedback. However the reality is that right now they're literally fixing 1 perk at a time. I don't even want to try and think about how long it would take them to make coherent formations and the such. Although it would be nice...
 

Reiksmarshal

Sergeant Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
Best answers
0
Added a section for shield taunting and cheers.

Shield taunt from Vikingr mod.

The op has been tuned and this thread has been moved to a more appropriate forum.