Making Archers Viable Against Calvary

[RyanFialcowitz]

I'm interested in making an all archer army but I find they flounder against calvary. What stats, skills or items would I need to change and/or to make them easily and above all quickly take down calvary?

- Ryan Paul Fialcowitz

 

[Urlik]

the only way you can do that is to have them mixed in with spears and polearms so the cav can't ride in and slaughter them

 

[tyrannicide]

Archers AREN'T viable against cavalry. Tactics 101.

 

[Theodoriph]

Some kind of magic shield that protects your archers from attack???


Barring that I'm not sure you can. All the archer units are pretty bad in hand-to-hand combat....so you're pretty much doomed.

If you're playing with the Khergit, then it's possible since all your archers (Lancers and Horse Archers) would be on horses too (and Lancers double as decent in a scrum since Archery is really secondary to their build), though it requires a lot of micromanaging in combat to make sure they don't do stupid things.

If by archers, you're including Crossbowmen, then it's possible since Rhodok Sharpshooters are decent in hand-to-hand combat as well. I've never tried an all Sharpshooter army, so I can't give any specifics. You'd likely suffer many more losses than expected and probably wouldn't be able to face the same odds as a cavalry army, but Sharpshooters are easy to train, so I could see it working.


Edit: As already stated by the ninjas, archers just aren't that viable against cavalry.

 

[RyanFialcowitz]

What stats, skills or items would I need to change and/or to make them easily and above all quickly take down calvary?

I'm looking to actually alter the archer units to make them powerful via troops.txt. I was looking for some suggestions in this arena. I find it hard to believe an archer with maxed out skils/stats would stand no chance against a calvary unit. . .

- Ryan Paul Fialcowitz

 

[Swadius 2.0]

Put them on a hill. The steeper the better.

 

[RyanFialcowitz]

Put them on a hill. The steeper the better.

I'm looking to actually alter the archer units to make them powerful via troops.txt.

- Ryan Paul Fialcowitz

 

[Theodoriph]

What stats, skills or items would I need to change and/or to make them easily and above all quickly take down calvary?

I'm looking to actually alter the archer units to make them powerful via troops.txt. I was looking for some suggestions in this arena. I find it hard to believe an archer with maxed out skils/stats would stand no chance against a calvary unit. . .

- Ryan Paul Fialcowitz

Ironflesh (for HP)
Power Draw (for bow damage)
Power Strike (for melee damage)
Shield (if the unit carries a shield)

You'd basically have to turn them into gods and max them all...especially since many of the archer units have crappy equipment and armor. There's probably a way to mod that too. If you haven't checked into that you should...better weapons and armor would probably make a much bigger difference than stat increases (e.g. adding a shield to shieldless archers).

As an aside, most archers of the time wouldn't have stood a chance against cavalry. From my fuzzy memory, the longbow was one of the only bows capable of piercing heavy armor and longbowmen weren't exactly common.

 

[RyanFialcowitz]

Ironflesh (for HP)
Power Draw (for bow damage)
Power Strike (for melee damage)
Shield (if the unit carries a shield)

You'd basically have to turn them into gods and max them all...especially since many of the archer units have crappy equipment and armor. There's probably a way to mod that too. If you haven't checked into that you should...better weapons and armor would probably make a much bigger difference than stat increases (e.g. adding a shield to shieldless archers).

As an aside, most archers of the time wouldn't have stood a chance against cavalry. From my fuzzy memory, the longbow was one of the only bows capable of piercing heavy armor and longbowmen weren't exactly common.

What I'd basically like to do is just have everything die on approach to the stationed archers. For everything not mounted this works fairly well.

1.) Any suggestions as to the level to set those skills?

2.) How about the weapon proficiances?

3.) What equipment would be ideal?

4.) Are attributes a factor?

- Ryan Paul Fialcowitz

 

[tyrannicide]

Change the horses and give them 1 HP. Problem (and cavalry) solved.

 

[RyanFialcowitz]

Change the horses and give them 1 HP. Problem (and cavalry) solved.

The idea is to make archers more effective not make horses ineffective.

- Ryan Paul Fialcowitz

 

[Theodoriph]

Ironflesh (for HP)
Power Draw (for bow damage)
Power Strike (for melee damage)
Shield (if the unit carries a shield)

You'd basically have to turn them into gods and max them all...especially since many of the archer units have crappy equipment and armor. There's probably a way to mod that too. If you haven't checked into that you should...better weapons and armor would probably make a much bigger difference than stat increases (e.g. adding a shield to shieldless archers).

As an aside, most archers of the time wouldn't have stood a chance against cavalry. From my fuzzy memory, the longbow was one of the only bows capable of piercing heavy armor and longbowmen weren't exactly common.

What I'd basically like to do is just have everything die on approach to the stationed archers. For everything not mounted this works fairly well.

1.) Any suggestions as to the level to set those skills?

2.) How about the weapon proficiances?

3.) What equipment would be ideal?

4.) Are attributes a factor?

- Ryan Paul Fialcowitz

I'm not sure how much I can help, because a lot of my advice depends upon understanding how the computer aims, and I frankly have no clue how the computers aims.

If you really want to kill all cavalry before it arrives then I'd suggest:

Power Draw 10 - Cavalry closes quickly. To kill them quickly, high damage when the computer actually manages to hit is a must. You don't need Ironflesh, Shield or Powerstrike if you want to make sure they all die before they close to melee anyway.

Agility (Unknown) - Each point of agility increases a weapons movement speed by 0.5%. So if you were to say boost this to 1000, archers should technically fire 500% faster. Whether they actually do depends on how long they take to aim (re: if AI archers act like humans and take time to aim they won't be 500% faster...if they act like computers and just draw and fire at a pre-selected target they will be). You'll need to experiment with this one to find a happy medium. I'd start with 100 and work my way up (or down) until you find the killing potential you require.

Weapon Proficiency - This decreases the size of my reticle, so I imagine it makes an AI archer more accurate. The question is whether an increase in accuracy is a good thing when the AI is trying to hit a moving target. I'd imagine that would depend on whether the AI is able to lead targets or whether it fires at where the target currently is. If the former, it should help alot. If the latter, it may not help much until the target is close enough so that leading no longer matters. Higher weapon proficiencies also increase damage.

Strength - I don't think this is actually needed. But since powerdraw is limited to 1/3 of strength (likely not the case fod modding), changing this would keep the character internally consistent (and that's always nice).


Equipment:

Large bags of Khergit Arrows

I'm not sure what the optimum bow is since I can't remember the specific wording of powerdraw (I'll have to check to see if it only adds damage for each point of power draw above and beyond the bow's powerdraw requirement or for all points). Stronger bows, aside from dealing more damage, also shoot straighter than weaker ones, which may or may not help the AI with any aiming issues.

In conclusion, you'll just have to experiment

 

[EdwardWellcraft]

I upped the proficiency of every ranged unit by 30 and they seemed to be much more accurate and capable, though they could probably be set even higher while remaining balanced. If you were also to double the damage output of the bows, but switch their damage type to cutting (for less armor penetration) I think they would be a bit more historically accurate. A couple of well placed arrows should bring unarmored horses and men down very quickly, but be less useful against armored troops.

This is if you want the archers to be reasonably good at fighting, if you want them to dominate the battlefield just give them 300 archery proficiency, 10 power draw, and 10 ironflesh. Can't see them doing anything but slaughter things at that point, though I haven't tried it myself.

 

[tyrannicide]

Change the horses and give them 1 HP. Problem (and cavalry) solved.

The idea is to make archers more effective not make horses ineffective.

Correction: the idea is to make archers more effective against cavalry -- which the proposed solution does, in a manner IMO just as inane as the problem itself.

 

[mrdang]

umm, im guessing youre creating a whole new archer tech tree right? not something the other lords have access too?

if it's godly for you, itll be godly for everyone else who can train one

 

[RyanFialcowitz]

Correction: the idea is to make archers more effective against cavalry -- which the proposed solution does, in a manner IMO just as inane as the problem itself.

Inane
1.) Lacking sense or meaning. (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/inane)

Wanting to make archers effective against calvary is neither lacking sense or meaning - your trolling attempt has failed. And if you SERIOUSLY think completely nerfing all horses in the game is a viable solution then I would suggest rethinking your existence as a human being.

- Ryan Paul Fialcowitz

 

[tyrannicide]

Thank you for providing the definition of inane. You forgot to include the adjectives "absurd, silly".

I felt that my opinion of what you attempt to do (that it is absurd) was best presented by showing that it had an absurd, while perfectly fitting, solution.

I'm sorry you percieve this as trolling. I shall refrain from further comment.

 

[RyanFialcowitz]

Thank you for providing the definition of inane. You forgot to include the adjectives "absurd, silly".

I felt that my opinion of what you attempt to do (that it is absurd) was best presented by showing that it had an absurd, while perfectly fitting, solution.

I'm sorry you percieve this as trolling. I shall refrain from further comment.

1.) Your solution was as you say absurd & silly. You knew that and posted it in anyway.

2.) In three posts now you have yet to give a specific reason for your opinions, the mark of a troll.

3.) While I hope that you wil refrain from posting your nonsense in the future I doubt that you will.
]
4.) From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

- Ryan Paul Fialcowitz

 

[Asylumer]

Strength - I don't think this is actually needed. But since powerdraw is limited to 1/3 of strength (likely not the case fod modding), changing this would keep the character internally consistent (and that's always nice).

Strength effects arrow velocity. Most archer troops have enhanced strength (as opposed to default attributes) for this reason.

 

[Theodoriph]

Strength - I don't think this is actually needed. But since powerdraw is limited to 1/3 of strength (likely not the case fod modding), changing this would keep the character internally consistent (and that's always nice).

Strength effects arrow velocity. Most archer troops have enhanced strength (as opposed to default attributes) for this reason.

Archer troops have enhanced strength because strength is required for power draw.

Now I`m not going to come right out and say you`re wrong, since I don`t know. I`ve never heard of such a thing and it certainly doesn`t make sense since the powerdraw requirement is the reflection of the skill required to fully draw the bow and overdrawing a bow with extra strength is a big no-no and could be disastrous, but it might be true...