M&B: what works and what not

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Daimyo

Veteran
Hi, while this is my first post I'm lurking here from a while, and I'd wish to begin saying that's the first game I've actually *bought* after 10+ years (last one was Xcom- Terror from the deep), because IMO it deserves all the money it's worth (unlike actual big software-house crap-RPGs). This game is great, really, don't be fooled because this thread will focus on criticisms, that's because it's a suggestion post, not an enthusiastic review! :grin:

As a sidenote, to better describe what I've experienced within the game, my hero is a lvl 25 squire, I use 2h axes, throwing weapons and xbow, and I fight both mounted and on foot. My Marnid/Borcha ar respectively a lvl 14 sword/shield fighter that throws axes, and a lvl 18 mounted archer with a 2h axe as backup. I've played also a lvl 6 archer (hunter), and lvl 10 mounted lance/sword+shield squire. Also PC =Playing Char, NPC =Non-playing char.
Let's see point by point what does not work:

Weapon skills: they actually give to little or even no benefit to PCs. While I've noticed substantial improvements in damage when increasing my power-strike from 1 to 5, and some improvements in swinging speed when increasing Agility, the difference between a 38 skill and my actual 200+ is pratically non-existant. NPC +do+ perform better on the battlefield with higher weapon skills (Marnid seems to be fight more smartly now), my damage is much, much more influenced by horse charge skill, weapon damage, power strike and (maybe?) strenght.
The only skill wich seems to have any actual usefulness is Archery.

Xbows: as above they do not gain anything with skill. The main problem, is that with 25 xbow skill, you aim fast and perfectly just like with 180 skill. In the beginning of the game with just 25 aiming crosshair (is the correct term?) closes completely to minimum, with 180 skill the only difference is that you do it 2/10th of a second faster (or maybe it's just because my Agi is higher?). This contrasts with archery that *does* gains benefits from higher skill, and makes xbow overkill in the beginning of the game, where you can just sit and slaughter hordes of slow-walking pirates climbing on horse when they're too near.
Also, I've noticed that shooting a too near target (expecially when you're on horseback), always misses him, because the arrow actually goes *through* him without dealing damage. I think it's a collision problem.

Mounted lance: as someone else already said, it's overkill. You can fight with a 2h weapon while on horseback and deal lots of damage, still you're never sure if you will kill your foe or not if he's armored, and hitting him is still somewhat difficult as he can parry you (and if he's an archer it's a very dangerous business). With a couched lance, he cannot parry, damage is over 100+ (ergo instant kill, always), it's easier to aim, and you can wield a shield while charging. Cheesy.

Swords: they are actually too similar to each other to have any real usefulness. I mean, what's the purpose of so many swords (nordic, arming, broad, long, falchion, scimitar, nomad...), if they all do the same damage? Why don't you make them more "personalized"? So maybe a falchion has a higher damage rate (let's say 32-33), but it's shorter range and slower speed is limiting, while a nomad sabre has even more speed with less damage. For example a 1h axe has no reason to exist: same damage as scimitar/nomad sabre, with shorter range and speed. At least give it a much longer range, better damage (30-31), and slower speed. This opens up choices.

Polearms: give it some more damage, they're too weak by now to have any usefulness. Also give them substantial edge against mounted foes (eg. damage bonuses, can't be parried, can be "planted on ground" to destroy a charge impaling horse and horseman, etc), actually that's the principal reason they were used on real battlefields.

Blunt weapons: as above. They do too little damage, and they're *way* too slow and short to be useful. Also 2h hammers weight a *ton* adding insult to injury, as you are also very encumbered when wielding a warhammer.

Pickaxes: what's their purpose? They're slow, do less damage than swords, have shorter range and can't even be used to capture prisoners.

Balanced vs Heavy: it's a good idea, but make the difference more noticeable. Actually it's just a +1 dmg +1 speed for balanced vs +2 damage for heavy, very little difference indeed. It would be nicer for example a +1 dmg +3 speed for balanced, vs +3 damage -2 speed for heavy. 5 speed points make a difference, just 1 doesn't make up for the additional +1 to damage.

Capture Prisoners: as someone said, useless skill, a nice idea I've read so far is that you sell prisoners 150 denars/Prisoner Managment skill. So a 5 skill is 7500 denars for 10 prisoners, wich is a good amount of money even later in the game.

Surgery: may it even give a chance to save horses from crippling, just like it saves people from dieing?

Thrown weapons: Npc with thrown weapons are idiots. I mean, throw weapons need no aiming reticle, they aim instantly. Why NPCs keep aiming for 10 seconds when throwing things? This make this kind of weapon crap when used by NPCs, while they're very useful when used by a PC. Seeing Marnid raising his throwing axe for 10 secs when an horseman is charging him is quite frustrating, btw.

Black armors: you did a GREAT job with armor apparel. They're really awesome, and as an historical weapon collectionist, I can add they have a distinct feeling of real armors, and that's awesome. But... Black armors are really silly. Chars wearing them seem funny drag queens playing badass in a LARP :grin: .Maybe it's the palette that's unbelievable as metal, or just the way they look, I dunno. But they kill game's atmosphere. Plate mails instead makes you feel much more *powerful*.

Purple padded coif: why it's purple? I mean all other padded coif you wear under many kinds of helmets, and even the padded coat are coloured with a very nice light-brown palette that feel "dirty and unclean". Why the coif is this silly *purple*?

Female mouths: why I can't change them? They look like horribly siliconed models, lol. Like playing a middle-aged game with baywatch pinups!

Chop-off body parts: I've read somewhere you already built a physics engine to calculate object rolling and applied it to shields. Why don't you use it for meat-chopping? It would be really *huge* when you deal a massive 60-90 damage to a feet or the head of a naked footman, to see his head rolling over. How many times you did a ton of damage with a huge 2h axe while mounted, and you hit your foe squarely in the head or (when he's uphill) in the lower leg, or his raised arm? Limiting chopping to huge damage single blows, will keep body parts scattered a limited amount, without weighting on slower systems.

Fall on back: all enemies dead fall backward. While a ragdoll physics is out of the way, I know, why don't make them die sometimes falling frontally? Just to avoid the silly show of 15 bandits looking at the sky like a New age picnic :grin:

I know that's long but I hope developers will spend a little time reading it :smile:
Thanks for your patience.
 
Daimyo 说:
I'd wish to begin saying that's the first game I've actually *bought* after 10+ years (last one was Xcom- Terror from the deep)

Congrats on your good taste. :smile: And welcome to the forums. I'd better warn you right now that you'll probably get burried in posts yelling at your for bringing up ideas that has been mentioned before... don't take it personally. :p

Daimyo 说:
Polearms: give it some more damage, they're too weak by now to have any usefulness. Also give them substantial edge against mounted foes (eg. damage bonuses, can't be parried, can be "planted on ground" to destroy a charge impaling horse and horseman, etc), actually that's the principal reason they were used on real battlefields.

Good idea, but I think having them be realistically useful against horses would seriously decrease the effectiveness of horses, especially when they face the PC with a polearm. Making NPCs use polearms better against the PC sure wouldn't hurt. They should *use* their longer range, and with a reasonable degree of success try to hit you before you're in reach to hit them.

Daimyo 说:
Thrown weapons: Npc with thrown weapons are idiots. I mean, throw weapons need no aiming reticle, they aim instantly. Why NPCs keep aiming for 10 seconds when throwing things? This make this kind of weapon crap when used by NPCs, while they're very useful when used by a PC.

[...]

Female mouths: why I can't change them? They look like horribly siliconed models, lol. Like playing a middle-aged game with baywatch pinups!

[...]

Fall on back: all enemies dead fall backward. While a ragdoll physics is out of the way, I know, why don't make them die sometimes falling frontally?

Good points. I especially agree about the female models, mentioned them in another thread just yesterday.. :smile:
 
MMad 说:
Good idea, but I think having them be realistically useful against horses would seriously decrease the effectiveness of horses, especially when they face the PC with a polearm.

Well that's not too bad after all. If you consider they can be only used this way, when on foot, this will give more reasons to choose a footman char instead of the usual (boring) 2h weapon-wielding horseman. Don't forget also that polearms is an additional weapon skill to raise, polearms weight a lot (= encumbrance), and that's a slot less for weapons in your limited 4 items inventory. So they would never be too much powerful (unless they instakill foes like a footman "crouched" lance, obviously). Some tweaking, and they can work in the end IMHO.

MMad 说:
Making NPCs use polearms better against the PC sure wouldn't hurt. They should *use* their longer range, and with a reasonable degree of success try to hit you before you're in reach to hit them.

I agree 100%. IMHO one of the problems many polearms have when wielded by npcs is that they perform too ofter over-head chops and side-swings, that do ridicolous amount of damage because they're considered bash or cut, and do not benefit of the weapon's longer range. NPCs now use them exactly like a 2hsword, but a very, very weak one.
A curiosity: it's plainly an overlooking IMHO that the best polearm (the awlpike) deals less piercing damage than a good 2handed sword, for wich pierce is secondary damage.
 
Weapon skills: Proficiencies should be the correct term. Armagan said that weapon proficiencies increases the attack speed and damage. But I think attack speed must increase more with increasing proficiency. And I dont think agility increses attack speed.

Xbows: I agree. What is the point of having 200+ xbow proficiency. The only benefit I guess is slighlty decreased reloading time.

Mounted lance: Completely agree that couched lance damage is too much. In fact couched lance can be blocked by shields but enemies never do it.

Swords: Yes. And Armagan said he will make it so that every weapon has some distinctive personality instead of just increased damage when he has some time.

Polearms: Agreed

Blunt weapons: Dont forget that blunt damage halve the armor protection just like piercing damage. So they are fine I guess.

Capture prisoners: Why should the price increase with your prisoner management skill??? Makes no sense. Maybe a very small increase but 150 denar/pm skill?. No

Fall on back: Yes its already mentioned that 20 dead enemies with exact same body position is funny.
 
May i add that blunt weapons should never ever slice through the enemy, the weapon should stop at the opponent. Same goes for all weapons if the proficiency is very low and the opponent is armored, while this is already in the game (try tournaments with 30skill in singlehand weapons and hit the mailed opponent, the sword wont slice through, which is IMO right and looks right and nice) it should be more pronounced, any plate or mail shouldnt be able to simply cut through if youre not an insane character, and if you are then you may be lucky to slice through the weaker armors, but cutting metal isnt simply possible in practice. Thrusting could do it though but not cutting and slicing.
 
But in tournament swords never slice through because they are wooden, I guess. I agree that not every attack should penetrate the armor, only very powerful ones. Also, your attack should not be interrupted with every hit you receive. What would be the the decision mechanism??. Attack should be interrupted only if armor is penetrated or damage is more than some threshold, 10-15 maybe. This number may change with your skills, strength and weapon proficiency in particular.
 
peoplele should die in tournaments.i'm not saying this because of i'm evil thats the truth and the best example is the tournaments in rome
 
The couched lance should do a lot of damage. It's got all the power of a charging warhorse behind it, and it was the weapon of choice for hundreds of years.
 
The Pope 说:
The couched lance should do a lot of damage. It's got all the power of a charging warhorse behind it, and it was the weapon of choice for hundreds of years.

It has the speed of the warhorse but not the power of it, the lance isnt connected to the horse, you fall off the horse much sooner. It only has the power of a charging human
 
If you have stirrups and a good saddle it has enough power to kill just about anyone in one go realistically.
 
sharp_spike 说:
peoplele should die in tournaments.i'm not saying this because of i'm evil thats the truth and the best example is the tournaments in rome

The reason people play the tournaments is so they can get money without the hassle of getting your arse handed to you by a sea raider.

Thrown weapons: Npc with thrown weapons are idiots. I mean, throw weapons need no aiming reticle, they aim instantly. Why NPCs keep aiming for 10 seconds when throwing things? This make this kind of weapon crap when used by NPCs, while they're very useful when used by a PC. Seeing Marnid raising his throwing axe for 10 secs when an horseman is charging him is quite frustrating, btw.

That's so they don't own the crap out of you while your still charging them without a shield.

Capture Prisoners: as someone said, useless skill, a nice idea I've read so far is that you sell prisoners 150 denars/Prisoner Managment skill. So a 5 skill is 7500 denars for 10 prisoners, wich is a good amount of money even later in the game.

I feel it's a beta skill, just added as an idea. I'm sure it'll be built apon.

Blunt weapons: as above. They do too little damage, and they're *way* too slow and short to be useful. Also 2h hammers weight a *ton* adding insult to injury, as you are also very encumbered when wielding a warhammer.

It depends. If your on a horse, the warhammer does become a very lethal weapon. Its only handy to have blunt weapons for those missions where you have to capture those *)#@!ing noblemen.

Only if, ya know, like taking prisoners and slaving them at the salt mine.

Polearms: give it some more damage, they're too weak by now to have any usefulness. Also give them substantial edge against mounted foes (eg. damage bonuses, can't be parried, can be "planted on ground" to destroy a charge impaling horse and horseman, etc), actually that's the principal reason they were used on real battlefields.

Yeah, I notice that they are very useless. They don't offer much of an advantage other then the crappy crouched lance, which is the the most annoying thing I have ever encountered in a game.

Black armors

This was just added for the hell of it.

Purple padded coif

Does it really matter?

Fall on back: all enemies dead fall backward. While a ragdoll physics is out of the way, I know, why don't make them die sometimes falling frontally? Just to avoid the silly show of 15 bandits looking at the sky like a New age picnic Very Happy

First off, "Frontally" is not a proper word. Secondly, I don't believe someone would fall ontop of their horses head. Rather, I'd like to see the HORSE fall with a flip, crushing the warrior. Also die from the side from a brutal arrow/crossbolt/javelin to the back of the spine/head/thigh.

NOTE: If people want, i'll draw a badly made paint diagram showing you what I mean. I mean the horse falls from the front having it's front knees hit, then skids and eventually flips the whole body over it's head, crushing the guy on it.

NOTE2: This is the largest and most quote-ridden reply I have ever written.
 
Fluffy The Hamster 说:
That's so they don't own the crap out of you while your still charging them without a shield.

They SHOULD own the crap out of any horseman, skirmishers were very effective against cavalry in ancient times. Would be stupid if a mounted knight is the weapon of choice.
 
Fluffy The Hamster 说:
Secondly, I don't believe someone would fall ontop of their horses head. Rather, I'd like to see the HORSE fall with a flip, crushing the warrior.
Am I crazy, or don't they already do this? That is, if you knock out the horse. They don't crush the rider as far as I know, but I'm pretty sure they do flip over.
 
Daimyo 说:
A curiosity: it's plainly an overlooking IMHO that the best polearm (the awlpike) deals less piercing damage than a good 2handed sword, for wich pierce is secondary damage.

You can't deal piercing damage with a 2hander while on a horse, though, which is where you spend most of your time. But yeah, that's still really odd. :razz:
 
Fluffy The Hamster 说:
First off, "Frontally" is not a proper word.

It's a proper word, alright. If he used it correctly is another matter, which I can't be arsed to look up.
Look, if you complain about other people's spelling or grammar it's only fair people complain on you.. :smile:
 
Some interesting points out there.

I like the couched lance attack.
Is it perfect? Probably not.
But it's the first RPG where physics take the precedence over stats.

With a decent horse and some training you can dispatch a rag tag mob of pirates easily.
It doesn't seem too irrealistic.

The disbelief comes from the fact you can learn how to couch your lance in a matter of days. Just level up, drop a few points in riding, and you're a warmachine waiting to be unleashed.

But that comes from DnD-like level mechanism; I am actually happy that levelling up doesn't make you that good.

...

About weapon roles, and especially pikes, I agree with most you've posted so far.

If riders can couch their lances, then pikemen should be able to plant their pikes.
It would make sense and counteract the apparent "uberness" of lances.

Spearmen do some damage to riders, but they can't still form a line and properly repel or break a charge.
I know it's about skirmish battle - but adding it to the framework might help with mods.

...

As a note against cavalry: up to the re-discovery of pikes, knights had a distinct advantage over infantry.
So it has been portrayed correctly.

Overall, weapon balance isn't too off.
You just need to learn how to properly counteract attacks.
Horses can be crippled using a two-handed sword.
Crossbowmen have an advantage over archers, cause bows are harder to use and need longer training.

So far, my only problem is with spears - they feel too unwieldy, but I guess I just need to properly level up my char before using them.


:smile:
 
Another thing needs improving. The squad AI. There have been countless times when I have been about to own an enemy with a throwing knife or a couched lance (yes, I use it) and some dumb caravan master (one of five) gets in my way and either stops my lance, and me, from killing the enemy, or gets a dagger in the noggin because of his bad timing ie veering in front of me as I throw a knife - bad move cos I mount up colossal ownage with them and it annoys me when my aim is spoilt.
 
First of all, well I didn't used the word "frontally" correctly. Ok, sorry, but I'm not an english person, my motherlanguage is italian, so I do my best, but sometimes errors may happen. Didn't tought it could be so much a nuisance tough.


Anyways, about thrown weapons, well the problem isn't if they would be overpowered if they can be thrown faster than now. The problem is that they *are* fast, very fast, and they work very well, still... when an NPC use them, they wield them like a bow, eg. they aim and then after a while, they shoot. This is senseless. I can use them effectively, while they cannot? Also, it was said already somewhere else, NPCs throw them *miles away* wich is somewhat funny (I often see Marnid axes be shooted uuuuuup in the sky and hit someone on the other side of the map, and it's really a LOL).

On crouched lance, nobody is saying that a lance isn't the most powerful weapon used in medieval battlefields. I'm just saying that in this game is cheesy. It's too easy to use it, and it deals too much damage, without any real downside. Someone said in another post: gameplay is king, if there's also realism that's a bonus. Well here's a problem of gamebalance: NPC use lance mediocrely and that's not a real nuisance, but if you make a lanced knight, hey, everything is too easy. It's like cheating sometimes.
Balance isn't too much off, I agree, but it still needs some tweaking.

Piercing weapons: well I've used a pickaxe sometimes, and I must say that if it halves armor protection, it does it in a so much subtle way... that's almost invisible. It seems I just deal much less damage, with a very slow weapon, nothing else. Maybe piercing weapons *should* halve armor, but they do not do it.

On armors I would like to add: it's not very pleasant to see when you wear a black armor, a lot of 0 damage hits. I think at least 1 damage should be delivered always, even on the smallest hit. Otherwise it somewhat kills fun to roam among club-wielding bandits dealing ten 0 dam hits, and walk away unscathed. In real life you can be an invulnerable tin-can, but they will mob you and drag down, that's a game, a lot of 1 hit blows will make more scary to charge between 6 footman, increasing challenge.

Lastly: the purple coif. No, it doesn't matter, but it's somewhat funny. Every padded is brown, except for that, maybe it's a mistake or an overlooking. :smile:
 
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