M&B Realism, issues and also the good stuff.

[Cataphract]

Basically i want to wake a discussion about the realism in combat, as we all know this game has probably the highest realism there ever has been made for pc's when it comes to FPS RPG games. Now firstly id like to fill you in with the stuff that i feel could be made better, here is a couple

1. Bows: they just dont behave right, although this is an RPG, power draw ruins the bows completely, as of now a crappy bow deals more damage with high power draw than a warbow or longbow in a normal mans hands, while this is debatable the bows as i feel shoot well enough without any powerdraw, just try it, a longbow with 0 powerdraw still shoots easily the 300meters if ya point it 45degrees, just like its supposed to, but get more power draw and it becomes too much of a "gun behaviour" thingy with really fast aiming and reloading (hard to believe 150lbs bows were that fast and accurate even in experienced hands)

2. Armor: Its very nice that we have blunt and piercing damage to halve the efficiency of armor, i do still feel that its not just that simple, i mean sure arrows are piercing but against solid plate i wouldnt count on it to be that "piercing". Crossbows on the other hand rely in my knowledge more on velocity and sharpness and dont have the same head as an arrow has, (the widening tip that tears up tissue) but instead tries to penetrate things much like a modern bullet.  Now the solution for this would be IMHO, that simply arrows shouldnt have direct penetration capabilites as they are in my opinion more cutting if we look at the tip of it. Now of course we have bodkin arrows, these should be IMO piercing but because of the piercing damage they do they should suffer damage loss, as we all know anything wide and cutting kills much more easily an unarmored opponent than a silky smooth and pointy thing. Not to mention bloodloss but i dont want to go that deep into game mechanics right now.

3:Swords, Piercing and cutting: Now let me praise something, the difference between being able to choose how to attack the opponent as of now is awesome, i mean looking what the opponent wears makes you able to do either a thrusting attack or a cutting attack, with of course the cutting doing more base damage but thrusting pierces, this is just wonderful.

Armor types: Chain is the issue here, while we all know chain is just really great against really shard cutting things, against piercing damage it might give in at times. My proposition is, that chain would keep its normal stats but suffer perhaps a 20-30% penalty against sharp objects, thrusts, anything piercing. Also, while im sure many types of the best leather and furs might give close to the protection as crappy mail and similiar, i feel they should behave completely differently when weared, how they should behave i havent thought about it yet.

Now discuss, whatcha think bout this, i mean i feel this stuff would be easy to alter into the game, if not in the original game, into mods perhaps, also im eager to hear historians opinions about what i just said.

 

[Tpoucat]

1. Bows: get more power draw and it becomes too much of a "gun behaviour" thingy with really fast aiming and reloading (hard to believe 150lbs bows were that fast and accurate even in experienced hands)

A trained english archer could get six arrows in the air inside of thirty seconds (If the game goes faster then there it is wrong but whatever, this is still the most realistic game, with swords and such, that I've ever seen)

 

[Archonsod]

1. Bows: they just dont behave right, although this is an RPG, power draw ruins the bows completely, as of now a crappy bow deals more damage with high power draw than a warbow or longbow in a normal mans hands,

Yeah, but a long bow or warbow with the same power draw benefits from a similar damage increase.

it becomes too much of a "gun behaviour" thingy with really fast aiming and reloading (hard to believe 150lbs bows were that fast and accurate even in experienced hands)

Plenty of people have complained that power draw shouldn't add extra damage, check the suggestions thread. As for speed, you'd be surprised how quickly you can fire a bow.

2. Armor: Its very nice that we have blunt and piercing damage to halve the efficiency of armor, i do still feel that its not just that simple, i mean sure arrows are piercing but against solid plate i wouldnt count on it to be that "piercing".

Why? The shape of the arrowhead won't change simply because the armour it's targetted at is different.

Crossbows on the other hand rely in my knowledge more on velocity and sharpness

They use exactly the same principle, with the difference that you use mechanical power rather than human strength to draw back the bowstring.

and dont have the same head as an arrow has,

There are many different varieties of arrowhead, all designed for different purposes, including piercing armour. Attempting to model them all into the game would be rather pointless (not to mention impossible without physics modelling). I don't think the game would benefit from it - no point in forcing the player to carry around six or seven different groups of arrows and switch to them depending on the enemy.

My proposition is, that chain would keep its normal stats but suffer perhaps a 20-30% penalty against sharp objects, thrusts, anything piercing.

Piercing halves the armour value. You've just suggested making chain better than plate against thrusting attacks

Also, while im sure many types of the best leather and furs might give close to the protection as crappy mail and similiar, i feel they should behave completely differently when weared, how they should behave i havent thought about it yet.

They already do. Leather armours are lighter than the chain one's, so the encumbrance the character takes from wearing them is far less, meaning you don't slow down quite so much when not mounted. Even without athletics, a character wearing full leather will move quicker than one in full chain.

 

[Cataphract]

There are many different varieties of arrowhead, all designed for different purposes, including piercing armour. Attempting to model them all into the game would be rather pointless (not to mention impossible without physics modelling). I don't think the game would benefit from it - no point in forcing the player to carry around six or seven different groups of arrows and switch to them depending on the enemy.

Yea i guess your right but even a simple approach of perhaps having bodkins piercing and do less damage and normal more "hunting" type of heads do the basic cutting damage

Piercing halves the armour value. You've just suggested making chain better than plate against thrusting attacks

Hehe, Wise ass , what i meant was 20-30% added to 50% resulting in thrusting attacks against mail reduce its efficiency by 67-75%

They already do. Leather armours are lighter than the chain one's, so the encumbrance the character takes from wearing them is far less, meaning you don't slow down quite so much when not mounted. Even without athletics, a character wearing full leather will move quicker than one in full chain.

Yes i am aware of this, but it just feels silly to have a leather jacket with almost equal protection than a rusty mail shirt,while it may protect as good as the chain i believe they both still are different and should somehow behave differently, so i suggest the base armor of mail should be significantly better than leather but suffer from my earlier stated piercing penalty, or something, just typing while thinking 

BTW thanks for voicing yer opinion

 

[DaLagga]

I do see what you're saying about armor.  It really makes no sense that a high quality leather armor is exactly the same as a lower quality chain armor except weight.  Rather than special penalties i think armor should get bonuses depending on its type: Light (fur, leather, etc) Medium (chain)  Heavy (plate).  Light could remain the same as it is now.  Medium should gain a bonus against cutting damage, perhaps as a percentage or just added armor value. Maybe just something like +10 vs cut.  Heavy armor should probably gain something like +5 piercing, +10 blunt, and +15 cut on top of the default armor values.  This way you avoid the rather unrealistic *leather as tough as chain* scenario.  And I do agree about the arrows.  But what I would like to see more specifically is just useable ammo.  I haven't checked the suggestions forum in a while, but I'm sure it has to have been brought up before.  This way it should be somewhat expensive to be an archer with ammo costs to worry about, as in real life.  To quote Longshanks from Braveheart "use up the Irish, arrows cost money...the dead cost nothing". 

 

[Cataphract]

Yea "thelagger" that seems even better.

 

[Tentacle]

2. Armor: Its very nice that we have blunt and piercing damage to halve the efficiency of armor, i do still feel that its not just that simple, i mean sure arrows are piercing but against solid plate i wouldnt count on it to be that "piercing".

You'd be surprised. Some armour was fairly soft, and an arrow could make a dent in it without too much effort. If you were in a field wearing a flimsy metal helmet and you got hit on the head with one, your helmet would probably dent and destroy your skull.

My proposition is, that chain would keep its normal stats but suffer perhaps a 20-30% penalty against sharp objects, thrusts, anything piercing.

Ye gods, no. If I remember correctly, chainmail was worn under the main plate as extra armour from slashing attacks.

 

[Cataphract]

Soft? as ive understood most metal used in medieval times was pretty hard and cracked more often than modern materials. I disagree alot with that an arrow can dent a metal helmet and destroy your skull as a rule. Check out these experiments http://www.thearma.org/Videos/NTCvids/testingbladesandmaterials.htm

If the materials can take sword blows without taking much damage, ive a hard time believing a metal helmet would dent from an arrow in general, and let us not talk about flimsy metal helmets and normal metal helmets, were generally about plate here.

Yes chainmail protects nicely from cutting attacks, no question about it, i didnt mention that it should have cutting penalty, some rings might pop if you thrust in it with something sharp thats why i said penalty against piercing.

 

[Will Greaves]

It's "mail" or "maille," not "chainmail."

 

[Cataphract]

It's "mail" or "maille," not "chainmail."

That is not what we are discussing here, im sorry if my choice of words are wrong. I will call it chainvestment, metallinkedshirt if i like, who the hell cares if we dont use words that were used in medieval times. Why is it annoying you so much that i call it chainmail, after all mail could be understood wrong in some cases meaning the stuff you get at the mailbox

 

[CrazyEyes]

It's "mail" or "maille," not "chainmail."

If you just say "mail", we don't know what the hell you're talking about. It could be ringmail - which have bigger links - or chainmail - which have very small links - or scalemail - which are very tiny plates linked together. I'm pretty sure the terms weren't just pulled out of someone's ass.

I don't think penalties or bonuses need to be added to the armor. Heavy armor is more efficient against cutting than any mail shirt, but is hardly more effective against piercing. I'm pretty sure the "+15 against cut" is already in place.

 

[Palmergeddon]

2. Armor: Its very nice that we have blunt and piercing damage to halve the efficiency of armor, i do still feel that its not just that simple, i mean sure arrows are piercing but against solid plate i wouldnt count on it to be that "piercing"

Abit late on the thread, but i have found many site's claiming the longbow could pierce plate at a distance of 200 yards, If this was not the case how did the english slaughter so many at Crecy and poitiers ?

Palmergeddon

P.s. <------ board noob underscore section is not a quote

 

[Fuzzball]

2. Armor: Its very nice that we have blunt and piercing damage to halve the efficiency of armor, i do still feel that its not just that simple, i mean sure arrows are piercing but against solid plate i wouldnt count on it to be that "piercing"

Abit late on the thread, but i have found many site's claiming the longbow could pierce plate at a distance of 200 yards, If this was not the case how did the english slaughter so many at Crecy and poitiers ?

Palmergeddon

P.s. <------ board noob underscore section is not a quote

You just need to move the [ /quote] up above your post.

1. Bows: they just dont behave right, although this is an RPG, power draw ruins the bows completely, as of now a crappy bow deals more damage with high power draw than a warbow or longbow in a normal mans hands, while this is debatable the bows as i feel shoot well enough without any powerdraw, just try it, a longbow with 0 powerdraw still shoots easily the 300meters if ya point it 45degrees, just like its supposed to, but get more power draw and it becomes too much of a "gun behaviour" thingy with really fast aiming and reloading (hard to believe 150lbs bows were that fast and accurate even in experienced hands)

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,8991.0.html - Here's a very good suggestion for improving the Power Draw "feat/skill".

 

[Palmergeddon]

ta

Palmergeddon

 

[Don Jacobo]

I want most fords to be noncrossable and i want rivers to be 4-6 times the current size, and i want fords and rivers as impassable terrain becouse they are too deep and i want river crossing battles and bridge battles, that would be true realism! (is that possible?)

 

[Archonsod]

Yea i guess your right but even a simple approach of perhaps having bodkins piercing and do less damage and normal more "hunting" type of heads do the basic cutting damage

I think the abstraction adds more to the game than going more detailed would. At the moment, an arrow is an arrow. By changing them your pretty much asking the player to carry several different types of arrow and switch between them depending on what they were facing (micromanagement basically). Besides, at the moment there's no way to model the biggest advantage of broadheaded or barbed hunting arrows - pain and bloodloss.

Hehe, Wise ass , what i meant was 20-30% added to 50% resulting in thrusting attacks against mail reduce its efficiency by 67-75%

You'd make it pretty much useless (actually less useful than leather) against such attacks. Chain mightn't be the greatest armour against piercing weapons, but it wasn't completely useless.

Yes i am aware of this, but it just feels silly to have a leather jacket with almost equal protection than a rusty mail shirt,

I dunno. If the mail was rusty then it's likely to fall apart as soon as it's hit, providing very little protection whatsoever

Soft? as ive understood most metal used in medieval times was pretty hard and cracked more often than modern materials.

It's a function of the quality of the iron used. One of the smiths can probably explain it better, but IIRC the more carbon present in the iron, the harder and more brittle the result (or it might be the other way around). Metallurgy was still being developed back then.

I disagree alot with that an arrow can dent a metal helmet and destroy your skull as a rule.

It's unlikely to dent and force it through your skull. It's possible it would go straight through both helmet and skull though. As a rule, if a point hits with enough force to cause a dent, it's likely to go straight through.

If the materials can take sword blows without taking much damage, ive a hard time believing a metal helmet would dent from an arrow in general, and let us not talk about flimsy metal helmets and normal metal helmets, were generally about plate here.

The point of an arrowhead concentrates it's force more than a sword. It's basic physics A sword distributes it's force across the area that contacts, an arrow concentrates the force into a single tiny point.

Yes chainmail protects nicely from cutting attacks, no question about it, i didnt mention that it should have cutting penalty, some rings might pop if you thrust in it with something sharp thats why i said penalty against piercing.

Even against piercing it's still protective. I'd have said blunt weapons would be the most dangerous - not much padding to absorb the shock on mail as a rule, and unlike angled plate it does nothing to avoid the full force of the blow.