M&B had peaked with F&S, apparently

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Bannerlord is going to need some sort of reforged edition to meet my expectations.

The shield wall and how it looked and functioned in Viking Conquest Reforged alone is tempting enough to bring me back to the game tbh.

I think it's still far too early to judge Bannerlord though, it's only been out in EA for a month and while programming is one of those things that can be done during the age of the rona, it still certainly affects how fast things progress I'm sure.
 

Gambles

Sergeant at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
You should start responding with mockery and memes, most people do not even know what they are talking about, and when that happens, it is nearly impossible to prove them wrong because they start to get emotional.

It baffles me how people will state straight up lies about historical **** that you can just google up in a couple seconds. It's super prevalent around here and it's odd cause you'd think people interested in a medieval themed game would have at least some interest in warfare during the time. They don't, they just want to make up alternative facts on the spot about whatever.
 

pRaX

Sergeant
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
You must be in an argumentative mood as your tone suggests you took issue with something I said, when I agree 100% :smile:
No ****. That's what he does. Almost all the time. Irrationally lashing out at everyone, friend or foe with sneaky passive agressiveness and ninja ad hominems.

Which is why I love him so much. I've put myself into a state of denial and try to believe he's just a very elaborate troll, to amuse myself due to the presented irony and contradictory nature of it all. :grin:
 

cyresdog

Banned
I see and hear a lot of people saying "THERE ARE SO MANY FEATURES COMING ITS EA", yet we haven't seen a single feature get into the game since Launch, i am aware its not out that long but bruh, we don't get any informations on what will be coming and what not. I seriously start to hate the gaming industry for being so extremely quiet with their playerbase the past few years and its only getting worse. Soon there will be nothing more than "Assassins Creed Valhalla" - "What will be in the game? What will it set apart from the previous titles" - "Stuff, we won't tell you a single thing what is gonna be in the game and what not you pretty much have to buy blindly." (Keep in mind this was just an example, not meant to be taken serious)
New World, Warcraft 3 Reforged (Well they told us what is gonna be in the game and then did a full on 180 and deleted more stuff than the original had), Bannerlord etc.
I can only repeat myself, when was being transparent a bad thing in development ever? And when did it hurt the game in the long run to be secretive about it? I don't want to get told 100% what is gonna be in the game, but god damn, the more infos you give the players, the more feedback you can get. And Developers aren't superhumans, they can't think of everything and more often than not they are "blind" in terms of interesting new features that the players have on their mind for years.
If i would be TW, i would get a discord server, invite long year active players from the community & Mod Creators, start talking with them, ask them for honest advice and ideas. And create the game that all of us waited almost a decade for now. Not only would that be the most impressive move any Dev would have pulled in years. It would create a Bond between Players & Community that almost no other Developer nowadays has, like in the good old days of Blizzard, back when they were a respected Company and not the money greedy bas***ds that they are now. Who knows, if i take a look at the Mod Community of this game there are tons and tons of extremely skilled people who maybe could get a good job opportunity aswell...
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
I can only repeat myself, when was being transparent a bad thing in development ever?

Eh, another game I played (MWO) the devs were looking at doing a rebalance of a rather controversial mechanic. They clearly laid out their goals, had a rough roadmap of the stages of implementation and... most of the playerbase didn't read it, inferred something negative and finally some special and unique individual doxxed a few developers and threw in some death threats for good measure.
 

cyresdog

Banned
Eh, another game I played (MWO) the devs were looking at doing a rebalance of a rather controversial mechanic. They clearly laid out their goals, had a rough roadmap of the stages of implementation and... most of the playerbase didn't read it, inferred something negative and finally some special and unique individual doxxed a few developers and threw in some death threats for good measure.
Okay, touché death threads nowadays get a bit out of hand, being frustrated and unhappy with a game you like is one thing, threatening a person over it is just the worst. But that is something that is out of control. I feel like the kind of people who do such things will do either way and will find an "excuse" why they did it no matter what.
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
Okay, touché death threads nowadays get a bit out of hand, being frustrated and unhappy with a game you like is one thing, threatening a person over it is just the worst. But that is something that is out of control. I feel like the kind of people who do such things will do either way and will find an "excuse" why they did it no matter what.

I can agree that the kind of people who do that **** are just the sort of people looking for any excuse.

The issue is that is the worst of the behavior, but by no means all of it. It is very difficult to implement balance changes, even -- no, ESPECIALLY -- necessary ones, without stirring up ire against you. It might be temporary or mild, but nerfing something is the fastest way to make yourself unloved as a developer. Even games with relatively mild communities have the issue of hostile posts directed towards devs over gameplay changes (usually balance changes AKA nerfs but occasionally content expansions get people angry) and I can sympathize with it being a slog to get through all that.

It is perfectly within their control though: they can just not let any one particular developer "own" a set of changes; they can do ninja nerfs at the technical level, where players won't/can't immediately notice; keep their design goals and development roadmaps internal, so if something doesn't work out, the players won't be upset at not getting something they felt was being promised.

If you want (mild) examples of all of the above with Bannerlord, just check the caravan nerf threads.
 
Game developers do some odd things with franchise type titles. Look at Battlefield V and how much better some things(like how you spawn directly into transports from the respawn screen) were done in Battlefield 4, a game released 6 years prior. Consider Ghost Recon Wildlands having 40+ PVP classes and the follow up Ghost Recon game(I played but can't recall the name bc it's so bad) having only 4 pvp classes.

I can't figure out the apparent need to try and reinvent the wheel some game devs exhibit. Instead of implementing popular and ground breaking elements from previous titles of their franchise, game developers will totally drop those rock solid concepts and fan favorite game mechanics from previous titles in favor of simply dropping those concepts and mechanics all together from the game.

What ever happened to the concept of building upon and improving upon what works?

I understand a new TW team needs to make a name for themselves by doing new things. That's fine and I totally respect that. Just don't "throw out the baby with the bath water" as the saying goes. Add some new things that improve the experience, while at the same time implementing those really cool and popular, fan favorite features from previous titles.
 
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cyresdog

Banned
The issue is that is the worst of the behavior, but by no means all of it. It is very difficult to implement balance changes, even -- no, ESPECIALLY -- necessary ones, without stirring up ire against you. It might be temporary or mild, but nerfing something is the fastest way to make yourself unloved as a developer. Even games with relatively mild communities have the issue of hostile posts directed towards devs over gameplay changes (usually balance changes AKA nerfs but occasionally content expansions get people angry) and I can sympathize with it being a slog to get through all that.
But if you ask me, doing balance changes rn in Bannerlord is the wrong Goal. They haven't introduced all Features yet but start to do balancing. Something that is always done by the mod community on a much higher level anyways.
I just don't see the point in balance something out, that will most likely get screwed up once a new feature is introduced.
On top of that, i am pretty sure a really large part of the playerbase is SP oriented. I don't want to say ignore MP, but both are pretty much different games. So Balancing MP, good job, keep doing that. Balancing SP rn? No please don't, i would rather see finally a new feature. Or an Overhaul of existing ones like Tournaments. Besides Units and the Minigames that no one plays there is no distinction of the Cultures of each Civ. Why does everyone in that world has the exact same Tournaments going on.
Why can't i have allies, only neutrals or Enemies.
There is absolutely 0 city/village/keep building in the game. I, myself, don't consider upgrading everything to the max as building something up. Especially since almost everything i capture is already maxed out.
Something that always bothered me, is the thing that the "goal" (you get what i mean i hope) is to create YOUR Kingdom, but you never control YOUR kingdom, you control several Kingdoms and are stuck with their soldiers, their cities, their villages. There is nothing that i myself created.
So back to OP's topic. Yes i am pretty unhappy with how many things Bannerlord is missing out on features that should be in the game from the previous titles.
And it makes me quite sad that it is again completely up to the modding community to make the game to feel like a Mount & Blade we all imagined it would be.
 

VanHoven

Veteran
Eh, another game I played (MWO) the devs were looking at doing a rebalance of a rather controversial mechanic. They clearly laid out their goals, had a rough roadmap of the stages of implementation and... most of the playerbase didn't read it, inferred something negative and finally some special and unique individual doxxed a few developers and threw in some death threats for good measure.
piranha games as an example for good player interaction? oh my... wouldnt have thought i ever read these words. well, if tw should strife to get as good as piranha games make yourself ready for a diplo revamp in 5 years that takes no consideration of any feedback given to them, includes a pay to win mechanic and noone will want to play it after a month since one faction steamrolls all the time. but dont worry, they will call it done and wont touch it ever again. expect another content update about 3 years later, this time a reworked tournament system. actually not bad. inbetween prepare to pay extra for every single unit in a factions roster.
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
piranha games as an example for good player interaction? oh my... wouldnt have thought i ever read these words.

I'm referring to when they were going to do away with ghost heat and replace it with power draw. They actually were upfront in that case and it bit them in the ass pretty hard.

But if you ask me, doing balance changes rn in Bannerlord is the wrong Goal. They haven't introduced all Features yet but start to do balancing. Something that is always done by the mod community on a much higher level anyways.

The guy doing balancing isn't the same guy/team working on features. The latter group aren't really saying anything on the forums. I think only Callum and mexxico post regularly. With that said, mexxico mentioned they were pretty concerned, even at this early stage, about balance issues and watching all the let's plays on YouTube because it would have negative effects on the late-game systems if players were able to accumulate too much power too quickly.
 
The guy doing balancing isn't the same guy/team working on features. The latter group aren't really saying anything on the forums. I think only Callum and mexxico post regularly. With that said, mexxico mentioned they were pretty concerned, even at this early stage, about balance issues and watching all the let's plays on YouTube because it would have negative effects on the late-game systems if players were able to accumulate too much power too quickly.
Ffs, there isn't a late game, maybe that should concern them FIRST? The bigger issue isn't getting powwerful too quick, it's not having anything to do with that power. If these are the logical fallacies present in TW's mindset, any hope in a bannerlord we expected will vanish quickly.
 

VanHoven

Veteran
i remember when a system like power draw was suggested as a counter measure to pinpoint accuracy alpha strikes before ghost heat was implemented, nice that they finally changed that. havnt followed the game for a while. wouldn't have thought people would actually complain about ghost heat going away.

but yeah, it took them about 7 years of operating a live service to finally improve their communication.
 

xdj1nn

Knight
WBWF&S
It baffles me how people will state straight up lies about historical **** that you can just google up in a couple seconds. It's super prevalent around here and it's odd cause you'd think people interested in a medieval themed game would have at least some interest in warfare during the time. They don't, they just want to make up alternative facts on the spot about whatever.
there's plenty of emotional behavior running around here. This is just another form of it.
People want to feel that they are superior/on the right/part of something/powerful, so they start to adhere into fanaticism, which is ALWAYS unfunded, you should look at the thread where there's some random guy crying rivers about character aging, it's mind boggling hahaha
 

IceNoVa

The Kaiser
Global Moderator
WBM&BVCNWWF&S
If those of you that rather "dispute" over anything other the original content of this thread (features of WFaS being suggested for Bannerlord but aren't in there) you are hereby kindly invited to take it to pm, or if you don't feel like having that chat in private, return to the topic at hand.

To the topic: It's great that features are suggested as frequently, but I wouldn't expect the full bandwith of features for the time of Early Access. Imo a roadmap including what's on the list and when it might be expected (roughly) would be something to calm a lot of nerves around here.
 
That wasn't really a criticism just expressing my thoughts on the choice of timeline. I still prefer a late medieval setting but it's okay if you don't, the devs have made their choice. Except they haven't made their research, apparently, in the gameplay and in artwork you constantly see leather armour, cloth swinging around for no apparent reason, you would expect to see pretty much everyone in mail armour, or the khuzaits more commonly in plated mail / scale, but it seems they are the exception and leather tunics dominate the battlefield now. Are there any gambesons even? Either there aren't or there is too little that I don't even remember. In any case, more brigandines, more (plated) mail, more gambesons, less thin cloth and leather, thank you very much.

I would still much rather have bascinets though...

No, you would expect to see pretty much everyone in tunics and gambesons with only the top tier troops in mail armor. The leather you wouldn't expect to see much of at all.
 

Dionaea

Veteran
So M&B Fire and Sword was a game with all kinds of promised features that weren't delivered or were poorly implemented?

This is the criticism of the OP?

... because Bannerlord isnt done? Released, but not done.

It was originally a mod no for the very first Mount&blade? By a husband and wife team Teagan and someone else I can't remember the name. They almost go tarred and feathered when they where the first here to charge people money to download and play their mod. Later Taleworlds incorporated it as DLC, kind of like how Brytenwalda mod's successor became the DLC Viking Conquest.

Taleworlds business model is creating a highly moddable game, and then work together with some mods/mod teams to release a dlc and then they all share the profits from that if I interpret it correctly
 
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