M&B - Daimyo Wars Old Thread - Thread now closed

[Mitsuhide]

I THINK it goes over, but I am not 100%. Netter try and ask Armagan if you can. Great work on the armour so far, I am getting a good collection of data here and have been trying to fugure out how to edit the .txt files.

Lost-Lamb, how are the backgrounds and menus going? Post screenshots on here, or email them to me if you want.

Mitsuhide

 

[Lost-Lamb]

I want to have some real japanese artwork as the background (partly becouse the visibility on these sucks) but my go-to-artist is at her boyfriend so no help from there. This is what I've been playing around with

 

[Manji]

Lost-lab: Ukiyo-e could be a good solution sicne photos seem to make the text hard to read. That or perhaps blurring the background a bit.

Either way, if you are interested in ukiyo-e i've got a stash of them here:

http://manji.negimaki.com/gallery

I made a quick one, had to lower the opacity because if not the image would just attract too much attention away from the text.




Also, to all people, has a conclusion been reached on the historical/fictional setting and the RPG/hack&slash issues?

 

[Curiousepic]

Nice, I'd say Ukiyo-e or other artwork is definitely the way to go, it doesn't take much time or a lot of work so we can move on to other things.

In my opinion, I think M&B is far more suited to realism with slight modifications to preserve gameplay as opposed to some sort of Diablo or Onimusha hack and slash.

MattG: I'm not sure how the additions pushed the polys up that high - one suggestions I'd have is to goahead and make the under-arm slope only a 3 or 4 point curve, more in keeping with the photos and your original model, but keeping the back point of the curve as high as the new version.

 

[Manji]

I went and did a intro screen thingie too:



Critic, opinions, etc?

 

[Blackish_sheep]

That title screen looks unbelieveably sexy ........ for a screen

 

[eatgreencrayons]

I agree, very nice. I can't wait for this TC to get to a downloadable point, and here's one vote for an animation modding utility, so we can get some real sexy sword-stances and blocks and attacks going...

 

[Mitsuhide]

We are sticking with a pretty historically accurate setting (during the Onin period as Arahan stated) and I am hoping to make the game more of an RPG then a hack&slash. This raises another point. How do people feel about making weapons do more damage, so people (including the player of course) dies quicker. Making armour more efficient will help balance this too, so people missing bits of armour would be considerably more vulnerable than someone in a full suit.

Mitsuhide

 

[Arahan]

In reponse to Mitsuhide's post:

I favor this shift in the balance of weapon damage and armor quality, at face value. The other side of the coin is that the importance of character skill will be reduced - which isnt necessarily a bad thing.

- Arahan

 

[Curiousepic]

I'll be out of town for a few days, so let me show you guys what I've done so far for weapon stats. Feel free to take and edit them regarding damage/armor balance as you were saying, and keep the questions in my earlier post in mind.

Most of the common weapons (tanto, wakizashi, katana, tachi) have ranges for length and damage since there were so many variations, and we can have a number of different versions in the game.

Most of the stats for Yari I haven't worked on yet because there is such a variety of different ones, I'm not sure how to break them down into length and blade type combinations.

Suggestions and corrections are welcome of course


Daggers/Shortswords

Tanto (dagger/shortsword) 15-30 cm
Price:
1H
Weight: 0.5-0.75
Swing: 8-12c
Thrust: 12-16p
Speed:
Reach: 25-40
Special: can't block

Wakizashi (shortsword, most often paired with katana) 30-50 cm
Price:
1H
Weight: 0.75-1.0
Swing: 12-16c
Thrust: 14-18p
Speed:
Reach: 40-60
Special:

Kodachi (shortsword) 50cm
Price:
1H
Weight: 1.0
Swing: 18c
Thrust: 18p
Speed:
Reach: 60
Special:

Chokuto (or ninjato, rare, straight double edged)
Price:
1H
Weight: .75
Swing: 20c
Thrust: 24p
Speed:
Reach: 66
Special:

Sai (blunt, can be thrown?)
Price:
1H
Weight: .75
Swing: 6b
Thrust: 12b
Speed:
Reach: 48
Special:





Daito - long swords

Katana 60-80cm
Price:
2H
Weight: 1.0-1.5
Swing: 26-30c
Thrust: 26p
Speed:
Reach: 70-90
Special:

Bokken (wooden practice katana) 64cm
Price:
2H
Weight: 1.25
Swing: 24b
Thrust: 16b
Speed:
Reach: 74
Special:

Suburito (heavy wooden practice katana) 64cm
Price:
2H
Weight: 2.5
Swing: 28b
Thrust: 18b
Speed:
Reach: 74
Special:

Jo (rare, long wooden practice sword) 120cm
Price:
2H
Weight: 3.0
Swing: 30b
Thrust: 20b
Speed:
Reach: 120
Special:

Tachi (longer katana for horseback) 80-90 cm
Price:
2H
Weight: 1.5-2.0
Swing: 32-34c
Thrust: 26p
Speed:
Reach: 96-106
Special:


Odachi (very big, long katana) 90-120cm
Price:
2H
Weight: 2.0-3.0
Swing: 34-38c
Thrust: 28p
Speed:
Reach: 106-136
Special:

Shikomizue (straight edged sword concealed as a walking stick, used by some ninja)
Price:
1H
Weight: 1.0
Swing: 28c
Thrust: 28p
Speed:
Reach: 70
Special:





Yari (spear) 100-600cm
Price:
1-2H
Weight:
Swing: b
Thrust: p
Speed:
Reach:
Special:

Bamboo Yari (sharpened bamboo staff)
Price:
2H
Weight:
Swing: b
Thrust: p
Speed:
Reach:
Special:

Su Yari (simple spear)
Price:
2H
Weight:
Swing: b
Thrust: p
Speed:
Reach:
Special:

Kikuchi Yari (long double edged blade, swing: cutting damage)
Price:
2H
Weight:
Swing: c
Thrust: p
Speed:
Reach:
Special:

Jumonji Yari (trident-like)
Price:
2H
Weight:
Swing: c
Thrust: p
Speed:
Reach:
Special:

Kama Yari (reverse-trident, swing: piercing damage)
Price:
2H
Weight:
Swing: p
Thrust: p
Speed:
Reach:
Special:

Kagi Yari (2-pronged fork spear)
Price:
2H
Weight:
Swing: b
Thrust: p
Speed:
Reach:
Special:



Other Polearms

Naginata (glaive) pole = 260-300cm
Price:
2H
Weight:
Swing: c
Thrust: p
Speed:
Reach:
Special:

Bisen-to (heavy, curved naginata)
Price:
2H
Weight:
Swing: c
Thrust:
Speed:
Reach:
Special:

Nagakami (katana or shortsword mounted on a short pole as a naginata) 110-160cm
Price:
2H
Weight:
Swing: c
Thrust: p
Speed:
Reach:
Special:





Walking Stick
Price:
2H
Weight: .75
Swing: 9b
Thrust: 10b
Speed: 90
Reach: 80
Special:

Hanbo (quarterstaff) 90cm
Price:
2H
Weight: 1.0
Swing: b
Thrust: b
Speed:
Reach: 90
Special:

Bo (staff) 120cm
Price:
2H
Weight: 1.25
Swing: 10b
Thrust: 10b
Speed: 94
Reach: 120
Special:

Rokushakubo (long staff) 182cm
Price:
2H
Weight: 2.0
Swing: b
Thrust: b
Speed:
Reach: 182
Special:

Tetsubo (rare, heavy iron staff) 120cm
Price:
2H
Weight: 3.75
Swing: b
Thrust: b
Speed:
Reach: 120
Special: requires STR 9 to use




Bows

Yumi (bow)
Price:
2H
Weight: 1.0-1.75
Damage: p
Speed:
Special:

Hankyu (shortbow used by some ninja)
Price:
2H
Weight: .75
Damage: p
Speed:
Special:

Daikyu (longbow)
Price:
2H
Weight: 2.25
Damage: p
Speed:
Special:



Crossbows

Light Crossbow
Price:
2H
Weight: 2.5
Damage: 53p
Speed: 43
Special:

Heavy Crossbow
Price:
2H
Weight: 3.5
Damage: 67p
Speed: 41
Special:



Thrown Weapons

Shuriken (throwing stars used by some ninja)
Price:
Weight:
Damage: c
Ammo:
Speed:
Special:

Kunai (small "daggers" used by some ninja, was not sharp and rarely thrown, but we can make an exception)
Price:
Weight:
Damage: b or c
Ammo:
Speed:
Special:



Miscellaneous Weapons

Sickle (used for farming rice)
Price:
1H
Weight: 1.0
Swing: 15c
Thrust:
Speed: 99
Reach: 40
Special:

Kama (modified sickle, used by some ninja)
Price:
1H
Weight: 1.25
Swing: p
Thrust:
Speed:
Reach: 40
Special:

Tonfa (police baton, high blunt damage when swinging) 50-60cm
Price:
1H
Weight: 1.5
Swing: b
Thrust:
Speed:
Reach: 50-60
Special:

Tessen (rare, iron "fan", basically a club) 44cm
Price:
1H
Weight: 2.5
Swing: b
Thrust:
Speed:
Reach: 44
Special:

Ono (rare, axe)
Price:
2H
Weight:
Swing: c
Thrust:
Speed:
Reach:
Special:

Masakari (rare, heavy battle-axe)
Price:
2H
Weight:
Swing: c
Thrust:
Speed:
Reach:
Special:

Otsuchi (rare, wooden hammer for bashing gates) 180cm
Price:
2H
Weight:
Swing: b
Thrust:
Speed:
Reach: 180
Special:

 

[Mitsuhide]

Thank you so much for that list curiosepic, I have updated the first post with it, as well as other information on progress. This list will surely help a lot of people, including Matt G, if he chooses to try modelling any of them.

Also, I am sorry if I got rid of anyones work from the first post, or replaced anything, I don't mean to be offensive or anything. I am just keeping the most recent information in there, and some of us have discussed a about which ideas are the best. I do appreciate everyone's work, even if I seem like I don't, I am just a little busy right now to thank everyone individually and do everything that everyone asks. Hope you all understand =D

Mitsuhide

 

[Arahan]

Hello gang,

I have a few questions for our theme gurus regarding Curiouspic's weapon list.

Somewhere along the line I got the idea that Samurai kept a short blade, (i.e. the tanto or wakazashi,) handy for the purpose of seppuku, (ritual suicide - hari kiri is considered a vulgar term of reference,) in the event a matter of honor made such a commitment necessary at short notice. (Ordinarily the process of ritual suicide was well planned, and used a special knife called a kozuka). If this is the case, would Samurai ever use this blade in combat, say as a last resort, and if not, should we include these weapons in the game aside from aesthetic elements?

In general, are there cultural limitations on who would be permitted to carry one weapon or another? For instance, would a typical commoner be permitted to own and carry a katana, or if not and they were seen with one, would it result in aggression from Samurai who made it their business to dispatch with imposters?

Perhaps items described as ninja weapons should be limited to those who play that character class?

For the purpose of our game, these issues may be inconsequential, but since historical accuracy is our goal, they are important to consider nonetheless.

By the way, how do folks feel about including a 'Masamune' modifier to certain weapons? Masamune, also known as Goro Nyudo, was a famous weaponsmith renowned for high quality, innovative work. He lived around the year 1300, so he is roughly in keeping with our theme. (More on Masamune: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masamune )

- Arahan

 

[Licken Chicken]

If this is the case, would Samurai ever use this blade in combat, say as a last resort, and if not, should we include these weapons in the game aside from aesthetic elements?

The famous Japanese swordsman, Miyamoto Musashi, pioneered a fighting style that simultaneously utilized both the Katana and the Wakazashi. This style, however, was percieved as unorthodox and potentially less honorable. I don't believe it was particularly common.

In general, are there cultural limitations on who would be permitted to carry one weapon or another? For instance, would a typical commoner be permitted to own and carry a katana, or if not and they were seen with one, would it result in aggression from Samurai who made it their business to dispatch with imposters?

I'm not entirely positive about this, but if I'm not mistaken, non-Samurai didn't cary Katana not because they weren't permited to do so, but because it was quite expensive to own one. As a result of being expensive, if a non-Samurai was seen with such a blade, it would likely be thought that he stole it from a dead Samurai. Such an act would be a grevious offence, and would likely garner agression from any haughty warrior.

 

[Licken Chicken]

On a different note, would it be possible to animate sheathed weapons? Both drawing and sheathing a blade were an important part of Samurai warfare, and it could really add to the mod if it was incorporated. Also, how cool would it look to have a sheathed Katana on your model's sash?

 

[Crazed Rabbit]

It was my understanding (from the book Shogun ) that non-samurai could not carry the two swords. I think Shogun was set around 1600, so it might be out of your timeframe, and earlier it could be different.

Crazed Rabbit

 

[Licken Chicken]

The book Shogun took place at a time when non-Samurai were prohibited, by law, from carrying weapons. This mod takes place before such laws were ever written.

 

[Fujiwara]

2 things:

1) MattG, that most recent model is FAN-FREAKING-TASTIC! I understand the need to reduce the number of polygons. Is there a way to reduce the resolution without horribly sacrificing the texture. If you need reference pictures, I've got plenty. One more suggestion: the shoulder guards (called sode) are actually five curved plates that slightly overlap each other, with the top plate going under the next one down, and so forth. Again, I have plenty of reference pictures. What software do you use?

2) The "long and the short" (daisho, or katana/wakizashi combo) as a signifier of samurai status (remember, they are a social class, not a rank) didn't come about until after the Tokugawa reforms in 1604 (I believe). Before, anyone who could afford one had weapons. In fact, the Tokugawa spent a lot of effort disarming the general populace, so prevalent were weapons. (not just swords, but spears, naginata, etc.) An average blade made by a student swordmaker wasn't much money, though not of high quality. Seppuku, though practiced, was not institutionalized until the Tokugawa as well.

 

[Fujiwara]

MattG:

Some ideas on reducing polygon count:

1) The thigh protectors were generally not worn buy Sengoku samurai. You could dump 'em.

2) Instead of a three piece shin guard, would a one piece wraparound guard use fewer polys?

3) The neck protector could also be left out, if necessary.

The helmet should be relatively easy, as it's basically a hemisphere with half of a truncated cone attached to the bottom back edge. The rest of the details can be done with textures. Lemme know if this helps.

 

[n00854180t]

I THINK it goes over, but I am not 100%.

It doesn't go over, it's a replacement.

 

[Manji]

Since most people have already said alot about the things questioned i'll just dwelve a bit in the period:

- The period in which the game is set, the Onin War (1467-1477), is near the end of the Muromachi period, and during that time the Bakufu was almost powerless and as such the general populace and ji-samurai were struggling for control.

- It was during the Onin War period that the Ikko-Ikki appeared. The Ikko-Ikki were mobs of peasant farmers and low-status samurai, who rose up against samurai rule. The Ikko-Ikki had a very large component of monk, specially of the Jodo Shinshu ( True Pure Land) sect. The most common weapons were naginata and they wore none to light armour.
In game terms the Ikko-Ikki could be transformed into roaming bands of cannon fodder, though a large contingent of Ikko-Ikki would be a worthy foe nonetheless.

- Niten Ichi Ryu is the name of the "two sword style" practiced by Miyamoto Musashi, where he used the katana in the right hand and the wakizachi in the left hand. This style did not existed formally before but it was used in battle since it was during the Edo period that most sword schools (ryu) were codified and concepts of "sword honour" integrated into Bushido. During the period where the game is set it was an "everything goes" era where the important was to survive and kill the enemy. Also, the samurai were expedient in the use of throwing weapons, spears, polearms and swords, though rarely gifted in all.
In game terms this would mean that both sword wielding would/could be available but hard to use.

- As stated before, the common populace did own weapons and one of the main goals of the Tokugawa shogunate was to disarm the peasantry and keep power in the warrior caste. During this period everyone who could afford a weapon did carry one but usually of very low quality and the most common were yari (spears) and short daggers (tanto). Armour was practically non-existant outside of the samurai caste because of it's price.

Cheers