Looter's throwing stones and insane bow's mysteries are solved

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BigFat

Regular
Has anyone else done a tournament in 1.6 and seen the Jav on jav duels that show up now?! The enemy will throw from near max distance and it takes like a day for it to reach you. You can so easily just side step them all and jav the guy when he's defenseless and running towards you. I don't know if jav troops are as bad, but I haven't got hot by one lately or noticed and deaths from them.

Looters are my shock troops now.
Same thing happens with the new Sturgian throwing axe duels. There is a perk that makes your thrown weapons travel faster and I feel like it should be the default.
Semi-unrelated, I noticed in the Sturgian tourneys that when they're equipped with Spear/Shield and throwing axes they'll save their last one and use it for melee rather than use the spear which really encapsulates existing issues with AI not using spears/spears kind of sucking.
 

black_bulldog

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SVC
I guess you don't know where Mesoamerica is. That's ok, a quick Google search can help you out there buddy. :wink:
I know exactly what Mesoamerican is but Bannerlord is based around Middle Age European/Middle East warfare not a stone age culture. If you can't figure out why your example isn't relevant to the game then I can't help you out.
 
Jav troops are about as bad, with one or two exceptions.
True. Jav infantry and jav horsemen are just not worth the money. To inaccurate, just a stack of 5 javs, in case of infantry they die to fast because they don't switch their weapons fast enough if a melee gets in range, it's a +6 weight, so vulnerable when distracted... (try to hit a HA and gets knocked out by infantry)

They are only semi effective against frontal charges of heavy cav but every HA is capable to empty their ammo without getting hit, just by cycling them.
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
True. Jav infantry and jav horsemen are just not worth the money. To inaccurate, just a stack of 5 javs, in case of infantry they die to fast because they don't switch their weapons fast enough if a melee gets in range, it's a +6 weight, so vulnerable when distracted... (try to hit a HA and gets knocked out by infantry)

They are only semi effective against frontal charges of heavy cav but every HA is capable to empty their ammo without getting hit, just by cycling them.
The exceptions, in my mind, are Beni Zilal Royal Guards and Aserai Faris Vanguards. They both use (or used) the high damage, faster-flying javelins and were useful if you maneuvered them around to the rear of he enemy and had them do a coordinated throw.
 

Sidrath

Sergeant
Everytime I hear about Looters throwing stones now, I can't help but picture these guys again.


Some things just can't be unseen... or unheard.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
Regarding slings...

  • Either a stone or lead projectile thrown at maximum speed against an unarmoured troop is lethal if hit head. (test)
  • A stone projectile thrown at an enemy can cause trauma against metal armour; in the game it should be "knocked unconscious" blunt damage by denting if hit head. (test)
  • A lead projectile thrown at an enemy can cause trauma with minimal chance of penetrating metal structures. Blunt damage 95% and piercing damage 5%. (test)

---
As for the javelinmen it is sad to see how they waste projectiles due to the detriment of " behaviour " suffered by the AI. This type of ranged unit would benefit greatly from the volley fire action, imho.
 

kreamy

Sergeant
Ok, guys, here we go.

<Item id="throwing_stone"
name="{=1CPdu9K0}Stone"
is_merchandise="false"
body_name="bo_throwing_stone"
holster_body_name="bo_axe_short"
holster_mesh="stone_holster"
holster_mesh_with_weapon="stone_holster"
mesh="throwing_stone"
value="2"
weight="0.1"
appearance="0.1"
Type="Thrown"
item_holsters="throwing_stone:throwing_stone_2">
<ItemComponent>
<Weapon weapon_class="Stone"
ammo_class="Stone"
stack_amount="14"
physics_material="missile"
accuracy="45"
thrust_speed="102"
speed_rating="102"
missile_speed="40"
weapon_length="10"
thrust_damage="15"
item_usage="stone"
rotation="100,30,20"
passby_sound_code=""
rotation_speed="0, -3.0, 0">

As you can see and understand (or can not) looters have 14 stones, 0.1kg each or 100gr with thrust speed 102(m/s?), speed rating 102(m/s?), speed 40(m/s?) and thrust damage 15.
1. For example baseball ball throwing record is 45m/s for 0.145kg ball. Its was in 1974 by Lynn Nolan Ryan. So we have gang of baseball throwing champions here.
2. Thrust damage should be thrust_damage_type="Blunt" at least!
3. Its simply impossible to do 15 damage with 0.1kg stone even to naked character from 25m+ range. Not even saying that they can do 25+ damage from 32m range on freaking 32 body armor!
4. Where do they put 14 stone, devs? In rugged pants without pockets? Yes, you equipped them like that.
5. Bottom line - it should be TWO 0.5kg stones, with blunt damage 5, accuracy="30", thrust_speed="40", speed_rating="40", missile_speed="25".

Now hunting bow:
<ItemComponent>
<Weapon weapon_class="Bow"
ammo_class="Arrow"
ammo_limit="1"
thrust_speed="75"
speed_rating="87"
missile_speed="64"
weapon_length="110"
accuracy="85"
thrust_damage="45"
thrust_damage_type="Pierce"
And blunt arrows with 0.05 weight:
<ItemComponent>
<Weapon weapon_class="Arrow"
stack_amount="30"
physics_material="missile"
thrust_speed="0"
speed_rating="0"
missile_speed="10"
weapon_length="95"
thrust_damage="2"
thrust_damage_type="Blunt"
So according to basic values multiplied by physics (speed and oncoming speed) we are getting ridiculous amount of damage even wearing best 52+ body armor.
Noble Bow making thrust_damage="80" with thrust_damage_type="Pierce". BTW is has almost same speeds as stones: thrust_speed="115" and speed_rating="94"
i agree.

1) if so OP, then max 5 stones.
2) shouldnt be OP, should do 1-5 damage depending on armor and where hit.

3) better yet, should knock you temporarily unconcious in battle that you take 3-5 seconds to get up from hahah. much better. (cant wait to see those complaints :razz:)

4) game is broken.
 
The Looter is the entry level bad guy a new player has to fight and for this job he is too good, even on easy settings. We can argue about slings and rocks and blunt damage etc. But if we were new players and not old Warband veterans, how would we fare against the Looters?
 

murtega

Knight
I've always thought those rocks were some futuristic heat guided missiles in medieval disguise. My day is ruined.
 
I just agree with the OP regarding number 2, slings definitely should cause blunt damage.

Personally I have always considered that looters had slings, hence the powerful shots. Whether they will be implemented or not, I dont know, but don't think so. Probably for the same reason flails wont make it (unfortunately confirmed by a dev years ago iirc).

I shouldn't be surprised that people kind of disdain the sling. Perhaps most history enthusiasts do not know a great deal of Reconquista warfare, focusing instead on the good 'ol Anglo-French conflicts.

It definitely played an important role and its use was common until the end of the middle ages and a bit beyond. Think it as a cheap, efficient even against armoured soldiers, and I dare to say, even fun weapon to practice. The stones and bullets were small and concealable, and packed a punch(bullets were usually made of lead). It was used by the Moors and Christians, and Granada and the Balearic Islands were famed for their slingers, particularly the latter, where the traditional practice continues until today. It's incredible how accurate those guys can be, as you can see in Tercio's link.

Matter of fact, the Balearic Islands are even named as such because of the sling bullet ( "bala" in Spanish), according to etymologists.
 

bestmods168

Sergeant
Did you seriously datamine all this to prove throwing rocks are OP when you should know by now those rocks are placeholders for sling animations that aren't implemented? That's dedication. To what, I'm not entirely sure.
I have no idea if the animation will ever be implemented nor do I care really, I'm merely pointing out that the units that throw rocks in this game are not throwing rocks, but using slings as a justification for the damage they can do and this is apparent if you have ever played Captain Mode where the Rabble unit for Khuzaits has a "sling" option but they are just throwing rocks like bandits. While I don't think they would leave it the way it is forever, I could care less if a sling animation happens or not.
Did you just say sling? Get ready for slings to be stolen. I meant implemented.
 

bestmods168

Sergeant
I just agree with the OP regarding number 2, slings definitely should cause blunt damage.

Personally I have always considered that looters had slings, hence the powerful shots. Whether they will be implemented or not, I dont know, but don't think so. Probably for the same reason flails wont make it (unfortunately confirmed by a dev years ago iirc).

I shouldn't be surprised that people kind of disdain the sling. Perhaps most history enthusiasts do not know a great deal of Reconquista warfare, focusing instead on the good 'ol Anglo-French conflicts.

It definitely played an important role and its use was common until the end of the middle ages and a bit beyond. Think it as a cheap, efficient even against armoured soldiers, and I dare to say, even fun weapon to practice. The stones and bullets were small and concealable, and packed a punch(bullets were usually made of lead). It was used by the Moors and Christians, and Granada and the Balearic Islands were famed for their slingers, particularly the latter, where the traditional practice continues until today. It's incredible how accurate those guys can be, as you can see in Tercio's link.

Matter of fact, the Balearic Islands are even named as such because of the sling bullet ( "bala" in Spanish), according to etymologists.
Flails almost work.

 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
I just agree with the OP regarding number 2, slings definitely should cause blunt damage.

Personally I have always considered that looters had slings, hence the powerful shots. Whether they will be implemented or not, I dont know, but don't think so. Probably for the same reason flails wont make it (unfortunately confirmed by a dev years ago iirc).

I shouldn't be surprised that people kind of disdain the sling. Perhaps most history enthusiasts do not know a great deal of Reconquista warfare, focusing instead on the good 'ol Anglo-French conflicts.

It definitely played an important role and its use was common until the end of the middle ages and a bit beyond. Think it as a cheap, efficient even against armoured soldiers, and I dare to say, even fun weapon to practice. The stones and bullets were small and concealable, and packed a punch(bullets were usually made of lead). It was used by the Moors and Christians, and Granada and the Balearic Islands were famed for their slingers, particularly the latter, where the traditional practice continues until today. It's incredible how accurate those guys can be, as you can see in Tercio's link.

Matter of fact, the Balearic Islands are even named as such because of the sling bullet ( "bala" in Spanish), according to etymologists.
Everything correct, Balearic man's word here 😌 .

In addition to the sling (stone and lead projectiles), it would also be interesting to introduce staff slings in a 2.0 version of what we have in Viking conquest.

7b3851a21aeeeff074e9df6885735686.jpg
0038246378b3de6ecd5b621418d5d476--roma-antigua-roman-history.jpg

Obviously, if Taleworlds finally introduces the sling (and eventually the staff sling) I don't think they will simply recycle animations (as bestmods168 does in his video with a lot of merit and success by the way) but create them for this type of action and type of weapon in a professional way.
 

MadVader

Duke
M&BWB
Everything correct, Balearic man's word here 😌 .
Riddle me this, Balearic man - if you keep throwing stones, doesn't that mean you'll run out of stones one day?
And your islands would sink into the sea lacking stone support that was worked into sling ammo by throwing-stuff-at-people enthusiasts?
:grin:
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
Riddle me this, Balearic man - if you keep throwing stones, doesn't that mean you'll run out of stones one day?
And your islands would sink into the sea lacking stone support that was worked into sling ammo by throwing-stuff-at-people enthusiasts?
:grin:
Don't worry, we've been sunk for a long time... we've left our local gross domestic product in the hands of tourism... it won't be long before either the Teutons invade us for good or we go back to the goatskin loincloth. :lol: 🐐
 

bestmods168

Sergeant
Staff slings will be featured in my Ultimate Minor Factions mod. The Meso American factions will be using them.

I suspect tw may not implement slings due to the cloth moving. The ammo may not be able to follow the cloth sim. Also, the cloth sim is difficult to control. Best they can do is create an empty and allow it to turn like a wheel.
 
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