Looter's throwing stones and insane bow's mysteries are solved

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vym

Recruit
Ok, guys, here we go.

<Item id="throwing_stone"
name="{=1CPdu9K0}Stone"
is_merchandise="false"
body_name="bo_throwing_stone"
holster_body_name="bo_axe_short"
holster_mesh="stone_holster"
holster_mesh_with_weapon="stone_holster"
mesh="throwing_stone"
value="2"
weight="0.1"
appearance="0.1"
Type="Thrown"
item_holsters="throwing_stone:throwing_stone_2">
<ItemComponent>
<Weapon weapon_class="Stone"
ammo_class="Stone"
stack_amount="14"
physics_material="missile"
accuracy="45"
thrust_speed="102"
speed_rating="102"
missile_speed="40"
weapon_length="10"
thrust_damage="15"
item_usage="stone"
rotation="100,30,20"
passby_sound_code=""
rotation_speed="0, -3.0, 0">

As you can see and understand (or can not) looters have 14 stones, 0.1kg each or 100gr with thrust speed 102(m/s?), speed rating 102(m/s?), speed 40(m/s?) and thrust damage 15.
1. For example baseball ball throwing record is 45m/s for 0.145kg ball. Its was in 1974 by Lynn Nolan Ryan. So we have gang of baseball throwing champions here.
2. Thrust damage should be thrust_damage_type="Blunt" at least!
3. Its simply impossible to do 15 damage with 0.1kg stone even to naked character from 25m+ range. Not even saying that they can do 25+ damage from 32m range on freaking 32 body armor!
4. Where do they put 14 stone, devs? In rugged pants without pockets? Yes, you equipped them like that.
5. Bottom line - it should be TWO 0.5kg stones, with blunt damage 5, accuracy="30", thrust_speed="40", speed_rating="40", missile_speed="25".

Now hunting bow:
<ItemComponent>
<Weapon weapon_class="Bow"
ammo_class="Arrow"
ammo_limit="1"
thrust_speed="75"
speed_rating="87"
missile_speed="64"
weapon_length="110"
accuracy="85"
thrust_damage="45"
thrust_damage_type="Pierce"
And blunt arrows with 0.05 weight:
<ItemComponent>
<Weapon weapon_class="Arrow"
stack_amount="30"
physics_material="missile"
thrust_speed="0"
speed_rating="0"
missile_speed="10"
weapon_length="95"
thrust_damage="2"
thrust_damage_type="Blunt"
So according to basic values multiplied by physics (speed and oncoming speed) we are getting ridiculous amount of damage even wearing best 52+ body armor.
Noble Bow making thrust_damage="80" with thrust_damage_type="Pierce". BTW is has almost same speeds as stones: thrust_speed="115" and speed_rating="94"
 

VicbossOG

Regular
Did you seriously datamine all this to prove throwing rocks are OP when you should know by now those rocks are placeholders for sling animations that aren't implemented? That's dedication. To what, I'm not entirely sure.
 

vym

Recruit
Did you seriously datamine all this to prove throwing rocks are OP when you should know by now those rocks are placeholders for sling animations that aren't implemented? That's dedication. To what, I'm not entirely sure.
Really? Sorry, I must have forgotten that all this game is just not implemented yet. Anyway I'm still able to make it pretty playable and enjoyable for me. But you can wait for something what maybe will be implemented. Cheers.
P.S. Yeah, and slingshot damage of 30+ on 60+ body armor I guess logical and acceptable for you.
 

VicbossOG

Regular
I never said slingshot. I said sling. There's a difference. And yes, 30+ damage on 60+ body armour is perfectly acceptable to me for a sling considering there is evidence they were able to crack and dent helmets in ancient warfare. There is even evidence of their usage against the conquistadors of Spain by the Mesoamerica people and they describe the velocity of the slingstone as being enough to kill a horse.
 

black_bulldog

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SVC
I never said slingshot. I said sling. There's a difference. And yes, 30+ damage on 60+ body armour is perfectly acceptable to me for a sling considering there is evidence they were able to crack and dent helmets in ancient warfare. There is even evidence of their usage against the conquistadors of Spain by the Mesoamerica people and they describe the velocity of the slingstone as being enough to kill a horse.

Yes slings were used so much during European middle ages warfare that they almost replaced the bow and if more rocks were around would've replaced early firearms. /s :iamamoron:
 

VicbossOG

Regular
Yes slings were used so much during European middle ages warfare that they almost replaced the bow and if more rocks were around would've replaced early firearms. /s :iamamoron:
I guess you don't know where Mesoamerica is. That's ok, a quick Google search can help you out there buddy. :wink:
 
Did you seriously datamine all this to prove throwing rocks are OP when you should know by now those rocks are placeholders for sling animations that aren't implemented? That's dedication. To what, I'm not entirely sure.

Could you link to where this is discussed by devs? I haven’t come across this discussion.
 

Life_Erikson

Master Knight
M&BWBNWVC
Did you seriously datamine all this to prove throwing rocks are OP when you should know by now those rocks are placeholders for sling animations that aren't implemented? That's dedication. To what, I'm not entirely sure.
Lol. Where does TW say they are going to implement slings? Last time I checked (Devlogs from before EA) TW stated that slings are "too complex".
 

VicbossOG

Regular
I have no idea if the animation will ever be implemented nor do I care really, I'm merely pointing out that the units that throw rocks in this game are not throwing rocks, but using slings as a justification for the damage they can do and this is apparent if you have ever played Captain Mode where the Rabble unit for Khuzaits has a "sling" option but they are just throwing rocks like bandits. While I don't think they would leave it the way it is forever, I could care less if a sling animation happens or not.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
The guy seems to be a dev under cover :shifty:.

Joking aside, although in the animations xml files there is no indication of sling movements, in the mpitems and in ingame MP mode, this is something to be taken with a grain of salt:

Code:
  <Item id="mp_sling_stone"
        name="{=bDfKz5SZ}Sling"


I don't have any information to suspect that slings are going to be implemented soon; however that line of item code is a bit curious. I for one would love to see them implemented, I always advocate for them when I get the chance when the subject has come up.


---
Ninja'ed again.
 

Honved

Knight
The same physics justifications for stones doing 30+ damage through heavy armor are NOT used for standard melee weapons, otherwise practically all melee weapons would be "one-hit-kill". Since they're clearly not, that makes stone (with or without a sling) and bow damage seriously unbalanced compared to the melee alternatives.

While ancient sling stones COULD penetrate bronze armor if they hit practically square, it's conceivable that a stone COULD kill or seriously injure someone in heavy armor in one hit. The odds of it happening are extremely low, however. Arrows should have a reasonable chance of doing damage through armor, but what gets through anything more serious than simple leather should be relatively minor, and it should take quite a few hits to kill during a battle. Most arrow fatalities happened well AFTER the moment of injury, as the victim either bled out over the next several minutes, suffered additional shock and/or injury while removing the arrows, or died days later of infection. Having someone instantly drop over dead due to an arrow hit to the arm or leg seems a bit absurd.

I've been a strong supporter of having injury significantly reduce combat effectiveness, so badly injured characters are less dangerous, easier to finish off, and more likely to rout, rather than fighting at 100% effectiveness until they run out of hitpoints and then suddenly dropping over dead. That means, as a player character, if you take an injury, you're better off pulling back to safety, or using some medical supplies to "bandage" a few points of injury and reduce the penalties before returning to the fight.
 

vym

Recruit
I never said slingshot. I said sling. There's a difference. And yes, 30+ damage on 60+ body armour is perfectly acceptable to me for a sling considering there is evidence they were able to crack and dent helmets in ancient warfare. There is even evidence of their usage against the conquistadors of Spain by the Mesoamerica people and they describe the velocity of the slingstone as being enough to kill a horse.
Dude, stop using heavy drugs please. You are not adequate. Really, no offense. I was talking about body armor and you shared your ideas about cracking helmets with sling and stone. Wooden or bronze helmet BIG MAYBE.
You wanna try to do any damage with your sling on brass lamellar over mail with sling? Do you even have idea what is it? Or brigandine over mail? Or scale vest over gambeson, brigandine over hauberk, heavy scale armor over mail hauberk? I will not even feel your stone wearing any of it, not saying about any damage. So your "30+ damage on 60+ body armour is perfectly acceptable to me" is beyond stupidity. I'm sure 80 piercing penetration on a hunting bow is normal for you as well. Woodland longbow with heavy bodkin-point arrows could SOMETIMES penetrate legs, arms or shoulder armor. Here is some historical facts for you:

The Alexiad about the Normans of Bohemond during the latter’s campaign in Greece:
For he knew that the Franks were difficult to wound, or rather, practically invulnerable, because of their breastplates and coats of mail. Therefore he considered shooting at them useless and quite senseless. For the Frankish weapon of defence is this coat of mail, ring plaited into ring,and the iron fabric is such excellent iron that it repels arrows and keeps the wearer's skin unhurt.

Jean de Joinville, describing an incident with Walter of Chatillon during the Seventh Crusade:
..and whilst the Turks were fleeing before him, they (who shoot as well backwards as forwards) would cover him with darts. When he had driven them out of the village, he would pick out the darts that were sticking all over him; and put on his coat-of-arms again... Then, turning round, and seeing that the Turks had come in at the other end of the street, he would charge them again, sword in hand, and drive them out. And this he did about three times in the manner I have described.

Odo of Deuil writing about King Louis VII in an engagement during the 2nd Crusade:
The enemy climbed after, in order to capture him, and the more distant rabble shot arrows at him. But by the will of God his armour protected him from the arrows.

During the 3rd Crusade, Bahā'al-Dīn, Saladin's biographer, wrote that the crusaders infantry there:
...drawn up in front of the cavalry, stood firm as a wall, and every foot-soldier wore a vest of thick felt and a coat of mail so dense and strong that our arrows made no impression on them... I saw some with from one to ten arrows sticking in them, and still advancing at their ordinary pace without leaving the ranks

Galbert of Bruges describing the performance of an exceptional archer called Benkin, during a siege in Flanders in 1127:
And when he [Benkin] was aiming at the besiegers, his drawing on the bow was identified by everyone because he would either cause grave injury to the unarmored or put to flight those who were armored, whom his shots stupefied and stunned, even if they did not wound

During the Battle of Nicaea (1097), Albert of Aix wrote:
Walter the Penniless fell, pierced by seven arrows which had penetrated his coat of mail.

During the Battle of Acre (1291), William de Beaujeu, Master of the Temple, was accused of cowardice when he retreated from the fighting. He lifted up his arm and replied:
Seigneurs, I can do no more, for I am dead; see the wound.
An arrow had pierced him through the mail beneath his armpit—only the fletches were visible

Gerald of Wales, writing in 1137 about a skirmish between the Welsh and the Normans
A knight of William de Braose was hit by one (arrow) which went through the skirt of his hauberk, his mail hose, his thigh, and then through the leather and wood of his saddle into his horse; when he swerved round, another arrow pinned him in the same way as the other leg

So in regards to mail armor, it seemed that in general the answer to the question is MOSTLY NO. Exceptionally powerful arrows striking at good angles might be expected to penetrate from time to time
And I can see you are a big expert in Spanish conquistadors vs Aztecs battles. Bet you saw somebody killing horse with sling yourself. Yes common horse in a head or temple with big stone probably. Now try to do same with fully armored one.
 

VicbossOG

Regular
Dude, stop using heavy drugs please. You are not adequate. Really, no offense. I was talking about body armor and you shared your ideas about cracking helmets with sling and stone. Wooden or bronze helmet BIG MAYBE.
You wanna try to do any damage with your sling on brass lamellar over mail with sling? Do you even have idea what is it? Or brigandine over mail? Or scale vest over gambeson, brigandine over hauberk, heavy scale armor over mail hauberk? I will not even feel your stone wearing any of it, not saying about any damage. So your "30+ damage on 60+ body armour is perfectly acceptable to me" is beyond stupidity. I'm sure 80 piercing penetration on a hunting bow is normal for you as well. Woodland longbow with heavy bodkin-point arrows could SOMETIMES penetrate legs, arms or shoulder armor. Here is some historical facts for you:

The Alexiad about the Normans of Bohemond during the latter’s campaign in Greece:
For he knew that the Franks were difficult to wound, or rather, practically invulnerable, because of their breastplates and coats of mail. Therefore he considered shooting at them useless and quite senseless. For the Frankish weapon of defence is this coat of mail, ring plaited into ring,and the iron fabric is such excellent iron that it repels arrows and keeps the wearer's skin unhurt.

Jean de Joinville, describing an incident with Walter of Chatillon during the Seventh Crusade:
..and whilst the Turks were fleeing before him, they (who shoot as well backwards as forwards) would cover him with darts. When he had driven them out of the village, he would pick out the darts that were sticking all over him; and put on his coat-of-arms again... Then, turning round, and seeing that the Turks had come in at the other end of the street, he would charge them again, sword in hand, and drive them out. And this he did about three times in the manner I have described.

Odo of Deuil writing about King Louis VII in an engagement during the 2nd Crusade:
The enemy climbed after, in order to capture him, and the more distant rabble shot arrows at him. But by the will of God his armour protected him from the arrows.

During the 3rd Crusade, Bahā'al-Dīn, Saladin's biographer, wrote that the crusaders infantry there:
...drawn up in front of the cavalry, stood firm as a wall, and every foot-soldier wore a vest of thick felt and a coat of mail so dense and strong that our arrows made no impression on them... I saw some with from one to ten arrows sticking in them, and still advancing at their ordinary pace without leaving the ranks

Galbert of Bruges describing the performance of an exceptional archer called Benkin, during a siege in Flanders in 1127:
And when he [Benkin] was aiming at the besiegers, his drawing on the bow was identified by everyone because he would either cause grave injury to the unarmored or put to flight those who were armored, whom his shots stupefied and stunned, even if they did not wound

During the Battle of Nicaea (1097), Albert of Aix wrote:
Walter the Penniless fell, pierced by seven arrows which had penetrated his coat of mail.

During the Battle of Acre (1291), William de Beaujeu, Master of the Temple, was accused of cowardice when he retreated from the fighting. He lifted up his arm and replied:
Seigneurs, I can do no more, for I am dead; see the wound.
An arrow had pierced him through the mail beneath his armpit—only the fletches were visible

Gerald of Wales, writing in 1137 about a skirmish between the Welsh and the Normans
A knight of William de Braose was hit by one (arrow) which went through the skirt of his hauberk, his mail hose, his thigh, and then through the leather and wood of his saddle into his horse; when he swerved round, another arrow pinned him in the same way as the other leg

So in regards to mail armor, it seemed that in general the answer to the question is MOSTLY NO. Exceptionally powerful arrows striking at good angles might be expected to penetrate from time to time
And I can see you are a big expert in Spanish conquistadors vs Aztecs battles. Bet you saw somebody killing horse with sling yourself. Yes common horse in a head or temple with big stone probably. Now try to do same with fully armored one.
Imagine spending like a solid 30 minutes to an hour cherrypicking historical instances of skirmishers being unable to penetrate armour without actually including A SINGLE EXAMPLE of slingers. Imagine also looking all this up without even realizing that the bulk of the damage a sling can impart to someone is not due to the projectile penetrating their armour, but the sheer concussive force of the blow, which were known to cause internal injuries. Image being this guy lol.
 

Calabanar

Sergeant
Looters don't use slings.

Looters will probably never use slings.

Looters shouldn't hurl rocks as if they had slings if they don't have any. Placeholder or not.

Or should Aserai horses deal 50+ charge damage as placeholders for elephants?

Anyway, thanks for digging that code OP. If Taleworlds is still trying to work out how to implement slings, that's all good, perhaps in a DLC.
 
-- OP snip

Well, unless you go through the code and see how all this information is used, a bunch of xml values is useless.

Are you sure that weapon classes share the same calculations?
And why do arrows have a separate missile speed property? Are they additive to the bow that used them?
 
Ok, guys, here we go.

<Item id="throwing_stone"
name="{=1CPdu9K0}Stone"
is_merchandise="false"
body_name="bo_throwing_stone"
holster_body_name="bo_axe_short"
holster_mesh="stone_holster"
holster_mesh_with_weapon="stone_holster"
mesh="throwing_stone"
value="2"
weight="0.1"
appearance="0.1"
Type="Thrown"
item_holsters="throwing_stone:throwing_stone_2">
<ItemComponent>
<Weapon weapon_class="Stone"
ammo_class="Stone"
stack_amount="14"
physics_material="missile"
accuracy="45"
thrust_speed="102"
speed_rating="102"
missile_speed="40"
weapon_length="10"
thrust_damage="15"
item_usage="stone"
rotation="100,30,20"
passby_sound_code=""
rotation_speed="0, -3.0, 0">

As you can see and understand (or can not) looters have 14 stones, 0.1kg each or 100gr with thrust speed 102(m/s?), speed rating 102(m/s?), speed 40(m/s?) and thrust damage 15.
1. For example baseball ball throwing record is 45m/s for 0.145kg ball. Its was in 1974 by Lynn Nolan Ryan. So we have gang of baseball throwing champions here.
2. Thrust damage should be thrust_damage_type="Blunt" at least!
3. Its simply impossible to do 15 damage with 0.1kg stone even to naked character from 25m+ range. Not even saying that they can do 25+ damage from 32m range on freaking 32 body armor!
4. Where do they put 14 stone, devs? In rugged pants without pockets? Yes, you equipped them like that.
5. Bottom line - it should be TWO 0.5kg stones, with blunt damage 5, accuracy="30", thrust_speed="40", speed_rating="40", missile_speed="25".

Now hunting bow:
<ItemComponent>
<Weapon weapon_class="Bow"
ammo_class="Arrow"
ammo_limit="1"
thrust_speed="75"
speed_rating="87"
missile_speed="64"
weapon_length="110"
accuracy="85"
thrust_damage="45"
thrust_damage_type="Pierce"
And blunt arrows with 0.05 weight:
<ItemComponent>
<Weapon weapon_class="Arrow"
stack_amount="30"
physics_material="missile"
thrust_speed="0"
speed_rating="0"
missile_speed="10"
weapon_length="95"
thrust_damage="2"
thrust_damage_type="Blunt"
So according to basic values multiplied by physics (speed and oncoming speed) we are getting ridiculous amount of damage even wearing best 52+ body armor.
Noble Bow making thrust_damage="80" with thrust_damage_type="Pierce". BTW is has almost same speeds as stones: thrust_speed="115" and speed_rating="94"
I appreciate this very much. I breaks down the second part of my looter gripe: Not only are looter stones annoying and too good for looters, but over updates TW has made the starting bows and effect of bow skill make the new player characters shooting much slower and by comparison the looter rocks become much more annoying. You have to go much further back to shoot safely and with less accuracy.

Did you seriously datamine all this to prove throwing rocks are OP when you should know by now those rocks are placeholders for sling animations that aren't implemented? That's dedication. To what, I'm not entirely sure.
Why do looters have slings? If they have them then peasants(some do...) and recruit should have them too! And it's not that you can't have rock master looters if you really want to, but it's the disparity between looter rocks and other low tier ranged weapons that annoys me too.

Has anyone else done a tournament in 1.6 and seen the Jav on jav duels that show up now?! The enemy will throw from near max distance and it takes like a day for it to reach you. You can so easily just side step them all and jav the guy when he's defenseless and running towards you. I don't know if jav troops are as bad, but I haven't got hot by one lately or noticed and deaths from them.

Looters are my shock troops now.
 
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