Looters = snipers now?

[World's Coolest Old Guy]

seriously ? your testing 70 elite troops against 10 looters ?
and cav 27 vs 13 ?

what do you want to proof with this?

I held all but 24 of them back, and I cut my 27 cavalry down to 13 for that test. But don't worry, our friend Herbiie "convinced" me to do an early game test, I'll have that for you after I eat something. If you still have reason to doubt my claims after that, feel free to hand me over to the Sturgians.

They would go much further because they were being thrown more powerfully. Are you seriously comparing the damage done by a thrown rock to a slingshot?????

I haven't moved any goalposts. You pitted 24 archers against a few looters, with your guys being mostly quite high teir.

They're not slinging rocks anywhere. They are throwing rocks, by hand. If I went up against a bunch of guys with rocks in real life and I was in chainmail backed up by a half dozen dudes with spears, yes I'd damn well cahrge them... becuase they are throwing rocks, not using slingshots.

Saying that throwing rocks is in any way comparable to slingshots is simply silly. And baseball pitchers? Are you serious? So these looters are training for weeks on end to get a perfect throwing arm?

Go outside right now and throw a rock. See if you can get it up to 100mph

My points on realism, in bullet point form:
- They are too powerful and do too much damage to armour
- They are too accurate for something being thrown by hand
- They are carrying too many

*edit*

Also 25g... you're talking about throwing a bloody pebble. Oh no I am terrified.

Not a slingshot, a sling. Also, a junior high pitcher can throw a 50 MPH fastball pretty consistently, many faster. Also also, a pebble that hits you at 60 MPH can be lethal, particularly if you're hit by several of them. This is how the goshawk kills prey several times its size. Speed of impact, not mass.

 

[Nikomakkos]

As soon as you have some armor the rocks will hurt a lot less. You don't need much.

 

[eddiemccandless]

I held all but 24 of them back, and I cut my 27 cavalry down to 13 for that test. But don't worry, our friend Herbiie "convinced" me to do an early game test, I'll have that for you after I eat something. If you still have reason to doubt my claims after that, feel free to hand me over to the Sturgians.

Not a slingshot, a sling. Also, a junior high pitcher can throw a 50 MPH fastball pretty consistently, many faster. Also also, a pebble that hits you at 60 MPH can be lethal, particularly if you're hit by several of them. This is how the goshawk kills prey several times its size. Speed of impact, not mass.

We can talk all day about how slings are in the real world, the fact stays that looters are overpowered for an early game fodder troop. Heck, they shouldn't even really be around anymore after a month or two (that's how it was in Warband and it was a good design). They are the MnB equivalent of "go kill the rats in the warehouse", they should not be able to do any damage to someone equipped with high end gear.

 

[Herbiie]

Not a slingshot, a sling. Also, a junior high pitcher can throw a 50 MPH fastball pretty consistently, many faster. Also also, a pebble that hits you at 60 MPH can be lethal, particularly if you're hit by several of them. This is how the goshawk kills prey several times its size. Speed of impact, not mass.

Yes, a sling, my bad.

Slings and throwing rocks are completely different. Completely and utterly different.

Also, and I shouldn't have to say this, but rocks aren't baseball. You are deluded. Seriously.

You're also acting as if I am an idiot. I know what a pebble oing at 60MPH can kill you, I am not a moron. I also know, that throwing a rock the size of your fist and throwing a baseball are two different things, that a sling and throwing rocks by hand are in no way comparable, and that the speed of impact can be deadly. Seriously.

But no, you go make another silly little video that will prove once again that you don't even know what you're arguing against.

 

[morganja]

I hope this guy isn't a play tester. If so, that explains a lot.

 

[Mppqlmd]

There is something in the real world called "stoning", which is exactly that : killing by rock throwing. So is it realistic ? Absolutely.

Is it good for the game that looters are a challenge to beat early game ? I do think so, even if it's frustrating.

 

[World's Coolest Old Guy]

@Herbiie @Ghostwish @morganja @Mppqlmd

Moment of truth.



Now excuse me while I get on another one, because I forgot to capture my Realistic settings for this one and I know that's gonna be a point of contention.

 

[Herbiie]

There is something in the real world called "stoning", which is exactly that : killing by rock throwing. So is it realistic ? Absolutely.

Is it good for the game that looters are a challenge to beat early game ? I do think so, even if it's frustrating.

Yet another ridiculous comparison.

When someone is stoned, and not with the good stuff, they were stripped naked and had stones pelted at them from close range for a long long time by a crowd of people before they actually died.

Again, this is not the same as throwing rocks from 50m away at people in armour who don't dodge.

And Bolton.... look at how far they are throwing ROCKS. THEY ARE ROCKS. Litterally ROCKS.

 

[Narduiran]

As soon as you have some armor the rocks will hurt a lot less. You don't need much.

Dunno, I was carrying about 100k denars worth of armor and while I wasn't getting hurt that much, I wasn't able to hit the looters from all the stunning those rocks were doing.

 

[Nikomakkos]

Well, in any case I'm not having trouble with looters.

 

[Bramborough]

For the first day or two, Looters weren't a problem. They were the early-game pushover they're supposed to be. This situation (I'm not convinced yet it's really a "problem" per se) occurred when one of the patches "removed AI error in calculating ranged aim vs moving target". Or words pretty close to that. All of a sudden Looters got a lot more effective with those rocks. (so did other ranged units, but for many was probably most immediately noticeable with Looters. Certainly for me, anyway. Forest Bandits were already wrecking people even before the change).

They're still not a problem for even a low-level party overall, since their fire is diffused among multiple targets, and it's not like their paltry armor/melee got any better once cav/inf engage. Looters got a little scarier, however, to solo in order to buff one's own riding/weapon skills. Each individual hit doesn't hurt much. But when all their rocks are aimed at just one target, yeah, they can beat you down pretty quick even when riding fast circles around them.

 

[Narduiran]

Aight, here's a quick little battle with 18 looters. I did several attempts and this one was the most illustrative. They hit me with several 40m/s (90mph) fastballs, even when I was galloping full speed away from them. The entire damage they did to me and my horse was blunt damage from the thrown rocks. And the horse and I aren't naked, we've got pretty good armor.

Rewatching this, I even saw one rock thrown at over 50m/s relative speed. That's 111mph, faster than the fastball record. Granted I might have been moving towards the thrower at that moment, but this is definitely not normal for the lowest of the low, trash unit in the game.

btw, ignore all the lance misses, my character is really bad at it and the point moves all over the place.

 

[World's Coolest Old Guy]

Aight, here's a quick little battle with 18 looters. I did several attempts and this one was the most illustrative. They hit me with several 40m/s (90mph) fastballs, even when I was galloping full speed away from them. The entire damage they did to me and my horse was blunt damage from the thrown rocks. And the horse and I aren't naked, we've got pretty good armor.

Rewatching this, I even saw one rock thrown at over 50m/s relative speed. That's 111mph, faster than the fastball record. Granted I might have been moving towards the thrower at that moment, but this is definitely not normal for the lowest of the low, trash unit in the game.

btw, ignore all the lance misses, my character is really bad at it and the point moves all over the place.

Those numbers are arbitrary. I know because my eyes can't follow a fastball, but they followed these rocks just fine. Also, look at how many times they missed. And that's 18 looters with a single target at rather close range!

(On a related note, I think our horses deserve some pampering after this day of rigorous testing.)

For the first day or two, Looters weren't a problem. They were the early-game pushover they're supposed to be. This situation (I'm not convinced yet it's really a "problem" per se) occurred when one of the patches "removed AI error in calculating ranged aim vs moving target". Or words pretty close to that. All of a sudden Looters got a lot more effective with those rocks. (so did other ranged units, but for many was probably most immediately noticeable with Looters. Certainly for me, anyway. Forest Bandits were already wrecking people even before the change).

They're still not a problem for even a low-level party overall, since their fire is diffused among multiple targets, and it's not like their paltry armor/melee got any better once cav/inf engage. Looters got a little scarier, however, to solo in order to buff one's own riding/weapon skills. Each individual hit doesn't hurt much. But when all their rocks are aimed at just one target, yeah, they can beat you down pretty quick even when riding fast circles around them.

Definitely. Fortunately for me, I never relied on grinding, never felt right in a game that prides itself on immersion. Getting my skills up the "natural way" is, well, natural for me. I can get why this bugs the average player, though. Best advice I can give is to treat it more like Arma. If you become amazing at something through natural use, well, you become a legend. In most cases, just be someone who's highly competent, like any other lord, and do legendary things with that.

 

[lysergicsid]

So over night every looter attended sniper school and can headshot with stones from redicious distances? what the actual hell?

Can't ride around even small groups of looters now because they all hit me even when going full speed on a decent horse, looters are early game enemies, you're supposed to be able to kill them without wearing armor.

and archers? what the hell, the archers in my army is bloody useless, don't fire even when the enemy is 10 paces ahead of em, but the enemy archers litter me with arrows before I get within half a mile of them?

So I'm glad I'm not the only one who is amazed at the superhuman skill of looters to somehow throw rocks with 90% accuracy at full speed horses. This is definitely something they need to change because it's a joke right now.

In regards to the archers, I think I know exactly what problem you're talking about. I had this same issue.

So the game spawns your archers in most battle right behind your infantry units. This makes sense, since your infantry should block your archers. However, the archer AI is not smart enough to shoot over the infantry. What I do to fix it is send the archers to a space to the side of the infantry, then *poof* suddenly they are blessed with the insight to start shooting.

Also, if it's not a super critical battle, just hit "F6" and let the sergeants do all the troop ordering work This works 90% of the time as long as you have a balanced army (e.g. not just 1 cavalry which would get stuck during skirmishes)

 

[World's Coolest Old Guy]

So I'm glad I'm not the only one who is amazed at the superhuman skill of looters to somehow throw rocks with 90% accuracy at full speed horses. This is definitely something they need to change because it's a joke right now.

Mm, no.



If they're not 90% accurate against a stationary target from feet away, they're not 90% accurate against a horse in full gallop. Please tell me I don't have to do another video against a horse specifically. I don't get paid for this, you know! It's not even a hobby! I forgot I even had a Youtube account until today.

 

[World's Coolest Old Guy]

Yet another ridiculous comparison.

When someone is stoned, and not with the good stuff, they were stripped naked and had stones pelted at them from close range for a long long time by a crowd of people before they actually died.

Again, this is not the same as throwing rocks from 50m away at people in armour who don't dodge.

And Bolton.... look at how far they are throwing ROCKS. THEY ARE ROCKS. Litterally ROCKS.

How far exactly? Not half as far as my archers shoot their arrows. I'm seeing them thrown from... Oh, I dunno. 40 yards? 50?

Anyway, here. Got out in front of this.



I'm (hopefully) done with this crap for a while. I hate editing, my editor's text function is so damn rudimentary it hurts.

 

[The Leviathan]

I just created this account to laugh at the fact that I'm pretty sure Michael Bolton fell asleep during the lesson in 6th grade on how to control for an experiment lmao

sorry bud but do you seriously not understand how pitting 23 high tier archers against 10 looter on a map with a forest in between them is actually a terrible experiment and a pointless waste of everyone's time?

 

[World's Coolest Old Guy]

I just created this account to laugh at the fact that I'm pretty sure Michael Bolton fell asleep during the lesson in 6th grade on how to control for an experiment lmao

sorry bud but do you seriously not understand how pitting 23 high tier archers against 10 looter on a map with a forest in between them is actually a terrible experiment and a pointless waste of everyone's time?

Sure I do.

So then I made several more videos, just for all of you. Because I love every one of you nitpicky bastards. Have a look at how my six low-tier archers do against 10 looters and report back if you still have a problem with my experiment. If I don't hear back from you, I'll assume my relentless logic and superbly executed experimentation has gotten through to you and changed your mind!



(13:45, if it doesn't take.)

 

[shmambo]

They can pose a threat, but not the threat they currently pose.

There are two basic arguments against the way in which looters currently appear in Bannerlord:

1- Realism
The accuracy and power with which looters throw an almost inexhaustible supply of rocks is ridiculous. Yes, a thrown rock to an unprotected noggin can be fatal even. But such a throw will be incredibly lucky. Throwing a rock at a moving target will almost never result in a hit. I would say go outside and try it, but obviously - don't go outside, and don't throw rocks at people. But as human beings we are not good at judging the lead we need to throw things, in particular heavy items that won't be travelling as quickly as we think. Also, against an armoured target a rock thrown from the same level will not cause any damage whatsoever. It shouldn't just improve your 'odds of survival' - it should eliminate the threat posed by rocks. Finally, looters seem to have backpacks full of rocks! Volley after stoney volley crash against my crossbowmen! If they're picking them up - then where are my rocks? Why doesn't everyone have rocks? It's just silly.

2- Gameplay
Looters are early game enemies. When you've painstakingly got your first two tier 2 troops to have them go down to rocks before they can even get into the fight is silly. Getting mobbed by a gang of looters - fine, but just getting hit as they run towards the enemy - not fine. Looters should be an absolute breeze for trained troops to mow through, with more difficult bandits later on.

Just going to point out the fact we are able to lead thrown objects is arguably one of the main reasons you are even able to write such messages on the internet and not be extinct.

 

[The Leviathan]

Sure I do.

So then I made several more videos, just for all of you. Because I love every one of you nitpicky bastards. Have a look at how my six low-tier archers do against 10 looters and report back if you still have a problem with my experiment. If I don't hear back from you, I'll assume my relentless logic and superbly executed experimentation has gotten through to you and changed your mind!



(13:45, if it doesn't take.)

I'm an adult and I have no problem admitting that was probably the only decent and decisive experiment that you did out of how many? I'd agree with you that a lot of the claims about looters and the threat they pose are being exaggerated ITT but there's still some truth to the complaints that actually haven't managed to disprove in any of your poorly done experiments. The other video that dude posted of 18 looters pelting a man with a barrage of stones while riding on a horse from distances of upwards to 50m away is more indicative of the real problem many of the people in this topic have with looters and low level ranged units in general, which is that they're legitimately annoying, deceptively accurate, and completely unrealistic in almost every way imaginable.

Not to mention, there are several times during your experiments where you actually lose several tier 2-3 troops in melee with looters and moments where your archers are literally having a intense volley offs with dudes throwing rocks (which actually manage to hit and damage a bunch of your archers... the damage just happens to be spread between a dozen different or so units.)