AK47 说:
Got into an argument on youtube over why katanas do not glow blue and are not sharpened on the light of dawn, then people started throwing videos around. Thought I'd make a compilation of the longsword ones.
Been there, done that. Wanking's usually more fruitful, at least you have a little something to show for it after you're done.
AK47 说:
Man cuts an arrow in half as it is fired from 20 yards away.
Sword in video: Unknown 13th century broadsword.
Not a particularly impressive test, to be honest. The 'katana cutting arrow' **** was similarly bull****, the bow wasn't drawn to anywhere near full draw. Mostly this is just a measure of the reflexes of the user, but many weeaboo wankers tend to confuse and conflate that with the superlative abilities of the object of their furious fapping.
AK47 说:
Demonstrates the Liechtenauer "lightning cut" at relatively low speed.
Sword in video: Albion Swords Brescia Spadona.
Ironically, this is a Japanese test cutting pattern. AFAIK, Michael Edelson does kenjutsu (Toyama ryu) and battojutsu. The use of a Japanese style as 'frog DNA' for HEMA reconstruction and interpretation shows, I think. It's not a wrong approach, I'm just reflexively biased against anything Japanese now.
AK47 说:
Demonstration by Walter Robins, shows sharpness of a medieval longsword. Includes the "razor sharp" shaving test.
Sword in video: Windlass Steelcrafts Sword of Roven.
While they certainly have the
potential to be stupidly sharp, they were rarely sharpened to that degree AFAIK, the edge durability is utterly horrendous. You can chip the edges on bone, and a chipped edge is
much worse at this whole cutting business. As you can see, hewing strokes can still inflict fair amounts of damage, but the results are markedly worse.
Also, the bloody problem with that video is that the sword he's using is a replica, and not a particularly accurate one. It tells us nothing about the edges on extant swords. Considering the context, it's also very likely that he also performed an aftermarket sharpening job on the sword. This is likely to escape the average katana plonker, but you have to bear that in mind if you want to use that as evidence.
AK47 说:
Cutting tests by Walter Robins, lengthwise bisection of banana, potato, pea pod; cutting a green pea in midair; skinning an asparagus.
Sword in video: Windlass Steelcrafts Sword of Roven.
Whether he can do that consistently is still up for debate though.
Going to use this to show up a weeaboo who insists that the clip of someone cutting BBs and cucumbers is proof that the katana is awesome.
In all seriousness, it's the wielder, not the weapon.
AK47 说:
Cutting test, demonstration of the Mittelhau. Carcass has been gutted prior to cutting.
Swords in video: Unknown longsword and Albion Swords Knecht (Kriegsmesser).
Big ****ing swing cuts through target, nothing to see here, really.
A lot of people in the historical fencing community completely change their cutting mechanics when doing test cutting just to cut through the target medium. That's stupid, you're optimizing your technique for the test and not the actual context in which it's supposed to be used.
AK47 说:
Cutting test by Stefan Roth, Attempt at cutting an arming sword in half with a katana and a longsword. Katana chips the blade but bends, longsword cuts through but is notched.
Swords in video: Seelenschmiede Katana in Shin ho zume geschmiedet (Possibly), Seelenschmiede Bohrschwert (Possibly), Unknown arming sword.
I'd say it's more of a test of edge durability and structural strength than an attempt at hewing the damned sword in half. The longsword didn't actually cut through, it took a fairly large chunk out of the target, which then snapped from the force of the strike. While the chip doesn't
look that big, I wouldn't want to rely on that sword for anything particularly important. As for the catastrophic failure of the katana, what I'm guessing happened is that the massive chip in the edge removed a large proportion of the structural support for the softer spine, which then proceeded to fold and torque in the manner that you saw.
There's a fairly good demonstration of test cutting with the swords earlier in that video, and that's arguably more valuable to what we want to do.
The main reason this test has any value whatsoever is that Stefan Roth is an acclaimed swordsmith and one of the few in the West who can make katana worth a damn. It's not in his interests to bias the test. As with any infotainment, take the results with a ladle of salt.
xenoargh 说:
Of the videos, only the german one was even worth watching; you can cut a carcass in half with a pretty ordinary machete, if you hit the spinal column cleanly, and cutting people up is pretty straightforward; it's that armor stuff that made it a bit more challenging.
And that's it right there. A good knife, pound-for-pound, is likely a much better cutting implement than any sword. Whether it's a better
fighting implement is up for debate.
It's not just the armour, it's the fact that you're trying to cut up another person who's likely trying to do the same to you. It's relatively easy to hit people, it's bloody difficult to not get hit, and being able to hit people at will without getting hit in return means that you're a ****ing beast and I'll pay for a plane ticket to attend one of your seminars.
xenoargh 说:
Even the German one's not that great; I see serious issues with the way that the test was conducted- for example, how often in combat will a blade be rigidly supported on both ends?
Not very, unless you're catching a mordschlag with a halfsword guard, and even then you'll yield a little and ground out the impact. The test, however, was intended to show that the katana is not some superlative sculpture of steel. It's another bloody sword, and it will act within the limits of its design.
xenoargh 说:
What the others said. That video is utter bollocks. Good infotainment for the ignorant, perhaps, but anyone with the slightest amount of knowledge on historical arms and armour and their methods of use or a scientific background should be rolling their eyes and/or raging.
xenoargh 说:
However, what's missing from this video (and all of your examples), is how longswords and katanas were actually utilized under combat conditions.
That's bloody difficult to test, isn't it?
xenoargh 说:
Longswords were probably more useful in a crush of men-at-arms, where you couldn't get a full-strength swing in very often if at all; there, the flexibility of the blade would have been beneficial and the pommel's use as a secondary arm, along with the shield, was probably a big deal.
Then again, they tested with a bastard sword, and most men-at-arms weren't carrying those into the melee; by the 15th century, they were mainly using shorter, stabbier stuff, if they used a sword at all.
There may be some confusion in terminology here. It'd help if you defined what you're referring to with 'longsword' and 'bastard swords'. They're usually used interchangeably by enthusiasts; 'longsword' is the D&Dism for a knightly arming sword.
The length of longswords really didn't change all that much. Examples range from ~40 to 50+ inches, though at the top end it's hard to define whether it's a longsword or a 'true' two-handed sword. Different fighting systems have different preferences for sword lengths too. IIRC, the longswords depicted in Fiore and Talhoffer come up to about the sternum, whereas the civilian swords in the Goliath fechtbuch are markedly longer.
Also, what AK47 said. As plate armour improved, longswords were increasingly optimized for armour penetration/circumvention with the thrust because cuts really do bugger all against a man-at-arms in plate harness. The designs incorporated immensely stiff spines (efficacy in the thrust) and very acute points (seeking gaps and penetrating mail voiders). Hollow ground blades put in an appearance around this time, and it's not much of a stretch to imagine them as an attempt at the ultimate compromise. This sophisticated understanding of mass distribution and manipulation of blade geometry across the length of the sword is characteristic of extant European weapons. This
article is a good primer.
AFAIK, the Japanese tended not to mess around with mass distribution as much. Most of their designs have minimal changes in blade profile and distal taper. They did pay considerably more attention to the geometry of the edge and the faces of the blade. Read
this and
this for more information.
As always though, the primary arm of the knight was a polearm, whether it be a lance or a pollaxe. The sword was always a sidearm, which is why it gets a much higher profile in a civilian context. Also, it's believed that instruction in the use of the longsword (along with wrestling) served as the kinesthetic foundation for further progress in the martial arts.
xenoargh 说:
But conditions of war in Japan rarely included Samurai fighting in the same way; instead, their primary role was as mounted or dismounted archers, with the katana usually playing a fairly secondary role.
In later periods, samurai were used as heavy infantry to reinforce ashigaru blocks and (IIRC) shock cavalry. The whole 'polearms are primary' schtick still applies here, though their deployment in those roles would've given them far more opportunities to use their sidearms.
xenoargh 说:
So we're basically talking about two tools with radically different jobs; it's not terribly surprising that the katana's actually a better pure weapon, but is fairly poorly adapted for European fighting conditions, and vice versa, that bastard sword would have been damn-all useful if you tried to wear it while riding and shooting a bow, heh.
Agreed with everything except the conclusion. It's not a 'better pure weapon' in any manner, it's just designed with a different mindset and optimized for completely different contexts. In the end though, they're both
just swords, and enthusiasts need to recognize that neither of them are capable of performing beyond design and material limitations.
Knights didn't seem to have much trouble wielding their swords on horseback.
~
A few more clips.
Some pretty effortless hewing strokes.
The other videos in that channel are worth a look. While the sparring is not the most technical or refined (or even close to the manuscripts), the intensity and intent are bloody awesome. An instructor I know referred to these videos as 'Polish bashing'. Can't say he's wrong, but they're on the gentle eastern slope of the bell curve of HEMA practitioners so far.
Many of the rest of the ****ers seem to be more interested in playing dress-up.
Another awesome channel
The drilling videos of this group are highly recommended. Slow and clumsy my left arse cheek. Again, the intensity and intent are superb. The technical side's great too, but that's no surprise because they're performing drills.
Yet another one
WYSIWYG.
Classic zwerchau spam
I wouldn't want to have that guy's joints, but the speed at which he's twitching that thing is fairly impressive.
~
Note that many of the Japanese/Korean test cutting competitions are bollocks. As mentioned in the 'niku' article, many practitioners optimize their swords for the contest. These razor-sharp, leaf-thin swords are excellent for showing off and dicing tatami, but they'll fail catastrophically at the first bit of abuse. It's usually easy to spot these contests from a mile away. If you see someone in poofy pants dancing from target to target like Taz on a sugar high, that's probably it.
