List threads

[Orion]

Well ur team wack af if they cant create subboard with alternate rules. Difficult for the community to have different rules on different parts on the forum? We aint ****ing 12, we're grown ass people. Seems like the only ones havin hard time doing that, is the staff, as your tiny little group is ruining it for a lot of others.
I can't elaborate just enough how easily you could either allow lists with moderation again, or create subforums with alternate rules.

By that logic, we could've kept the old list threads around and just moderated them, right? The thing is, they were moderated, but so much drama kept popping up that it was decided to shut them down. That's not on the mod staff, that's on the people who were creating the drama. There will always be people like that, whether it's in a few threads or an entire child board.

Side note, the decision to ban list threads was made by a team of moderators who are no longer here. This has been said before. The current team is revisiting the issue, and the recent interest from you guys is pushing things along. Erminas & I are mostly in agreement, we're just waiting for globals to sign off on our idea to reintroduce lists.

 

[Kiano]

It may have been a decision made by a different team of moderators, but it's being upheld by the current team. I understand you aren't against testing list threads again, but the impression I get is you're in the minority. I think it's pretty interesting that one of the mods who is in favour of testing list threads again is providing the reasoning for mods that aren't. I suppose it keeps the message concise as only one mod is posting in the thread, but I think it would be nice to hear from these mods (I bet most of the competitive multiplayer community don't even know who they are). 

I think most people would agree that the list threads did not create a good image for the community in 2016, but much like multiplayer itself, it's the community that are keeping this part of the forum alive not TW. If at this late stage in the life of the game, the community feels that list threads would add a benefit to the forum, rather than a negative, I think they should at least be given a chance.

 

[CIIGES of the low lands]

It may have been a decision made by a different team of moderators, but it's being upheld by the current team. I understand you aren't against testing list threads again, but the impression I get is you're in the minority. I think it's pretty interesting that one of the mods who is in favour of testing list threads again is providing the reasoning for mods that aren't. I suppose it keeps the message concise as only one mod is posting in the thread, but I think it would be nice to hear from these mods (I bet most of the competitive multiplayer community don't even know who they are). 

I think most people would agree that the list threads did not create a good image for the community in 2016, but much like multiplayer itself, it's the community that are keeping this part of the forum alive not TW. If at this late stage in the life of the game, the community feels that list threads would add a benefit to the forum, rather than a negative, I think they should at least be given a chance.

Preach ?

 

[Roberta]

The more engagement this thread gets the more likely a resolution will be provided. Marnid as an NA competitive player has always been pro-competitive scene so maybe don't take out your anger on him.

 

[Orion]

I understand you aren't against testing list threads again, but the impression I get is you're in the minority.

Maybe, maybe not. I think the next part helps to explain the situation a bit more.

I think it's pretty interesting that one of the mods who is in favour of testing list threads again is providing the reasoning for mods that aren't. I suppose it keeps the message concise as only one mod is posting in the thread, but I think it would be nice to hear from these mods (I bet most of the competitive multiplayer community don't even know who they are).

The only other mods who would be concerned with list threads beyond me and Erminas are global mods. The reason you're hearing it from me is because I think you guys deserve to know more about what's going on behind the scenes for things concerning you, and I'm the first in line (along with Erminas) for handling issues on this board.

As for knowing the other mods, some of the global mods spend more time in on-topic than others. Calamity was the most active global mod in this section, but he recently resigned. You've probably seen Delinard a few times on this board, and if you check the Bannerlord section then you would see him regularly. He's not a part of the competitive scene, but he is more interested in on-topic than off-topic and he has weighed in on the issue. He can share his opinion if he wishes to. Another global, one who spends most of their time in the devblogs and off-topic, has said they don't really have a stance on it because they're not part of the multiplayer community, which is fair. The thing about global moderator as a role is that it can operate across the entire forum, but typically they stick to their preferred sections or language boards. For instance, our newest global moderator is Turkish and spends most of his time in the Turkish boards. The global mods which don't spend any time on this board are unlikely to get involved, so those making this decision will be people who are at least aware of what you guys want.

I think most people would agree that the list threads did not create a good image for the community in 2016, but much like multiplayer itself, it's the community that are keeping this part of the forum alive not TW. If at this late stage in the life of the game, the community feels that list threads would add a benefit to the forum, rather than a negative, I think they should at least be given a chance.

Our current proposal would include a limited number of list threads, curated by community-elected & approved list-makers, with a minimum standard for objectivity. That is to say, there would have to be some relevant stats or links to them included in the list, and a description of how those stats are weighted in the rankings. There would still be room for opinion, otherwise we're just making a boring stats compilation, but--for example--Arni & Charlini's recent list thread doesn't offer enough explanation for how players were ranked. The intention is to ensure higher quality lists which are less prone to drama because they have actual numbers & methods backing them up.

The more engagement this thread gets the more likely a resolution will be provided. Marnid as an NA competitive player has always been pro-competitive scene so maybe don't take out your anger on him.

Thanks, but I do understand why people are upset, and I knew by engaging in the thread that I would likely become the focus for it.

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

My understanding was always that list threads got banned because about 20 of them popped up at once and were becoming increasingly esoteric and troll-y, not that the arguments in the list threads were particularly bad. Worse bad blood comes from every damn NC or EU vs NA drama.

A simple compromise then would be to not allow multiple ongoing lists but just the one. The community would then have to speak to the list creators for any changes, and if that list comes up short it would eventually just get rejected and ignored - the community is pretty unforgiving when it comes to that kind of thing so I don't think we need to worry about subjectivity too much, beyond the slight variance that's always going to be present.

There is clear desire for lists, even if they are just silly things, and clear desire for interaction among the competitive community. Sticking to a hard rule out of fear of "flame wars" is a little silly and overstates both the severity and the consequences of those, and stifles the community. At the end of the day it's just some fun nonsense because we enjoy the game, I've had huge arguments last for days here and end up at people's throats, 2 days later we're teaming up on Warband to defeat the true enemy (inverse players). And Marnid's more of a forum warrior than even me, surely he knows that it doesn't matter that much at the end of the day if a few people get into some quote debates. Hell the Bannerlord forum is far worse than here for that.

TLDR let lists play

edit: I see Marnid has just stated a similar proposal which makes sense

 

[shin]

Our current proposal would include a limited number of list threads, curated by community-elected & approved list-makers, with a minimum standard for objectivity. That is to say, there would have to be some relevant stats or links to them included in the list, and a description of how those stats are weighted in the rankings.

I'm looking forward to seeing the same list over five different threads with players in slightly different rankings /s

There's more of a purpose than purely so that the top competitive battle players can post their lists, no? I'd love to see grudge lists for FT7's, bounty lists for 'hunt and kill this name, take a screenshot, has to be done with a kick/headslash' followed by a leaderboard etc. Please don't make it only for the list threads that lead the past moderators to remove list threads in the first place.

An excellent example would be the Toribash forums, there is a full bounty list (including using their in-game currency to place bounties but obviously not relevant here) that players can sign off on when completed. It's usually people putting it on their friends and honestly some of the 'hunts' are very fun 

 

[Kiano]

The more engagement this thread gets the more likely a resolution will be provided. Marnid as an NA competitive player has always been pro-competitive scene so maybe don't take out your anger on him.

Not sure if this is directed at me or not but I pretty clearly stated I understood that Marnid was not against lists. All in all I would think  Marnid has dealt with far more aggression in other threads although he maybe he'll disagree. Him being the focus is exactly why I was wondering why he was posting opinions he didn't necessarily hold.

Thanks for the run down of the mods Marnid. With some of them not stating an opinion either way,  and you and Erminas moderating this board, I wonder where the difference of opinion is coming from? Nice idea for the lists.

 

[Orion]

I wonder where the difference of opinion is coming from? Nice idea for the lists.

You said it, not me. The current questions are "how" and "when," rather than "if."

I'm looking forward to seeing the same list over five different threads with players in slightly different rankings /s

There's more of a purpose than purely so that the top competitive battle players can post their lists, no? I'd love to see grudge lists for FT7's, bounty lists for 'hunt and kill this name, take a screenshot, has to be done with a kick/headslash' followed by a leaderboard etc. Please don't make it only for the list threads that lead the past moderators to remove list threads in the first place.

An excellent example would be the Toribash forums, there is a full bounty list (including using their in-game currency to place bounties but obviously not relevant here) that players can sign off on when completed. It's usually people putting it on their friends and honestly some of the 'hunts' are very fun 

I hear you. The reason we're not going with a single list is because we want more variety & opinions to be heard. Keep in mind, the restriction on the number of list-makers and list threads is because this is a pilot program. If it works out, we'll be looking to expand it in the future. Light-hearted lists are certainly on the table, and we recognize that they are less likely to cause trouble in the first place. I think it's better to start with something more serious to see if we can handle it as a community, and then see about relaxing the restrictions after a foundation is laid.

My understanding was always that list threads got banned because about 20 of them popped up at once and were becoming increasingly esoteric and troll-y, not that the arguments in the list threads were particularly bad. Worse bad blood comes from every damn NC or EU vs NA drama.

As I understand it, the problem was with the volume of reported posts that came out of some of the list threads. Usually, they came from the serious lists because people felt more strongly about them. The number of joke list threads is a problem that solves itself, as dead topics eventually fall off the first page on their own.

 

[Fietta]

List threads have been around for years, they only got banned after the large volume of threads were created. They solve themselves but were still one of the major reasons on why lists were removed.

 

[KaneMaB]

I think 1 list should be allowed. But this list should be based off multiple people's opinion, and the scene should be able to give their input in a normal socialised manner.

 

[Charlini]

Our current proposal would include a limited number of list threads, curated by community-elected & approved list-makers, with a minimum standard for objectivity. That is to say, there would have to be some relevant stats or links to them included in the list, and a description of how those stats are weighted in the rankings. There would still be room for opinion, otherwise we're just making a boring stats compilation, but--for example--Arni & Charlini's recent list thread doesn't offer enough explanation for how players were ranked. The intention is to ensure higher quality lists which are less prone to drama because they have actual numbers & methods backing them up.

As explained on Arni's post, it was based on different aspects that determine both objectively and subjectively the performance of players since Bucharest was played until 1st-2nd week of WNL7. Those sub and objective matters were based on pure skill, statistics on tournaments, performances on tense matches, teamplay(including impact on teammates and communication), game sense(including awareness and decision making) and some other minor details of each player. That being said i'll admit that once i got asked for help to rate the players, i literally filled most considering the criterias i had in mind in 5 to 10 minutes, and this is the reason why some player's ratings were inaccurate or way off where they should be, out of that the list was decent overall and was gonna get a rework and accurate update after WNL7.

Out of that, the list is as scar explained on different posts an opinion, that wasn't really heating things up and has really no reason to get locked out of forums' useless rules. If you plan on developing a team of approved list-makers, allow me to say that considering a list is an OPINION, it will just end up being more biased and less accurate the more people you add to it. Also if you got some fresh formula to show us how Scar's got 99 awareness and I got 93, I'll be happy to show the numbers and give the rocket science mathmatics to determine how someone's decision making is wank compared to another's, maybe that way you'll have those numbers & methods to back up the 'so wished' perfect list. Achievements, Experience and stats are all objective matters that had a massive impact on the ratings on our list, and it was stated on the post so really got no clue where you coming from, just trying to literally set something off out of nowhere.

Let's just be realistic here, read through the posts, allow lists even if they're locked from start, no list is ever gonna be perfect and they're personal preferences after all, but don't sell out that you're gonna do some sort of objectival accurate work with a massive team on a subjectival matter lmao.

 

[DarkLight]

As much as I think about lists as circlejerks with no value whatsoever I dont see why they shouldnt be allowed as long as people behave in the threads. TW should take a second look on their no-list hardline stand and just close the threads where people cant behave like normal human beings and not just close ALL of them on sigh to avoid the risk of one os those threads derailing into people acting like idiots, because that is like banning drinking alcohol for everyone just because some people get too drunk to handle themselves.

 

[Tardet]

As much as I think about lists as circlejerks with no value whatsoever I dont see why they shouldnt be allowed as long as people behave in the threads. TW should take a second look on their no-list hardline stand and just close the threads where people cant behave like normal human beings and not just close ALL of them on sigh to avoid the risk of one os those threads derailing into people acting like idiots, because that is like banning drinking alcohol for everyone just because some people get too drunk to handle themselves.

I see what you are trying to say but that's what happened in the previous threads and what we would like to avoid this time. If people can't behave on a certain thread, you don't close it. You deal with the problematic individuals, warm them, mute them or prevent them to post on said threads again. If two people are fighting in a shop, I doubt you would punish the shop owner right? Same thing here.

 

[Killfacer]

Took 30 minutes of the new list for Apollo to sling a barb at Osiris 

Your solution sounds **** Marnid sorry. Only licensed list makers can make lists gahahaha

Lists will definitely create arguments, it's kinda the nature of the beast. Whether you think that matters is another point. I think the best solution would be to allow lists and just slap down anyone who can't control themselves with lengthy mutes (1 month?). They'll learn quickly enough then. You can include making obvious troll lists in being unable to control themselves.

I think some of the problem was that the Guildhall was kinda undermoderated at the time when everyone was spamming lists.

 

[Fietta]

This taleworlds policy that Erminas mentioned was clearly created or suggested by the old moderators like Alene, I can almost guarantee you can change the policy. Discipline the children then Bob's your uncle. If the clan board is moderated in a different way, couldn't I just make a new clan called LISTS and post lists? Or is the policy global and not bound to a particular board?

 

[ssalih]

Let the guys e-pen war whatever.

 

[CIIGES of the low lands]

Took 30 minutes of the new list for Apollo to sling a barb at Osiris 

Your solution sounds **** Marnid sorry. Only licensed list makers can make lists gahahaha

Lists will definitely create arguments, it's kinda the nature of the beast. Whether you think that matters is another point. I think the best solution would be to allow lists and just slap down anyone who can't control themselves with lengthy mutes (1 month?). They'll learn quickly enough then. You can include making obvious troll lists in being unable to control themselves.

I think some of the problem was that the Guildhall was kinda undermoderated at the time when everyone was spamming lists.

This is actually a good solution

 

[Count Delinard]

We are actively discussing this, expect a final decision soon.

List threads are but a piece of a larger set of changes/ideas we have for the platform but we decided to move their discussion forward as there's no point in holding them back.

You've probably seen Delinard a few times on this board (...) He can share his opinion if he wishes to.

And just so you all know, I am ok with allowing list threads to return under the premise of fostering activity as long as they stay within some parameters we are currently discussing.

 

[Roberta]

Having one list is a pretty terrible idea tbh. There is always biasedness from whoever is making the list and that can’t really be changed. They might not even believe they are biased but I hear players all day bash other players that are possibly better than them or at least equal in skill.

Having a community of players is a step in the right direction but if they are all from the same clan then it defeats the entire purpose.